Isolated Yeast (Tree House): How to Identify and Characterize?

CornyKegs 728
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Give it a go! Would be really interesting to see. Might take several tiny starters before you see any growth.

I believe the Diastaticus discovery by Lallemand was only in the last year or so...so if CBC does kill/stall/halt the super attenuation then that’s one hell of a ‘hunch’ by Nate.

As a side note Munich Classic sounds interesting as a non Diastaticus variant:

http://www.lallemandbrewing.com/en/canada/product-details/munich-classic-wheat-beer-yeast/
 
And it looks like every beer yeast that has been identified in that genome study that falls under “mosaic” is a diastaticus yeast.
 
WY3638 is another option too. Supposed to make a bunch of isoamyl acetate and also some secondary fruit flavors, but is POF+. I did try that one once, but that batch had other issues. I want to give it another shot.

As far as adding CBC-1 at conditioning and having it stop a WB-06 type strain from drying out the batch too much, IME it didn't work too well. My batches that i did that on all eventually dried out. I have wondered about adding CBC-1 in a small amount close to the beginning of fermentation. That is a hell of a risk though (especially for a pro), and I agree, a crazy hunch by Nate if that's what they're doing.

I thought I read an interview with him at one point and he said that some of the beers are his old homebrew recipes? I suppose that means they're using yeast that should be readily available?
 
Another option i was considering (when it becomes available next) is WY3942. Here's the description: "Isolated from a small Belgian brewery, this strain produces beers with moderate esters and minimal phenolics. Apple, bubblegum and plum-like aromas blend nicely with malt and hops. This strain will finish dry with a hint of tartness."

The "finish dry" part makes me hesitate, but not being a diastaticus strain I wonder if it would finish less dry than WB-06.
 
Any thoughts on stopping fermentation? Knowing a relative attenuation of S04 and where it's going to finish on each batch. You could drop the temp and knock out wb06 and t58? cbc-1 to clean up anything weird left behind by those?
 
couchsending said:
Based on the genome study WB-06 is most likely the dry version of Wyeast 1388, Belgian Strong. It falls into the “mosaic” beer category.

If you add the diastaticus yeast toward the end of fermentation and then add the CBC-1 does that stop the diastatecus strain? I can’t remember if that’s been discussed.

I do still have the isolates but I highly doubt there’s any viable yeast left. Might try to grow some up to see.
Click to expand...

I went back and looked, I only checked out growth in the presence of S-04 or T-58.

JohnConnor said:
Any thoughts on stopping fermentation? Knowing a relative attenuation of S04 and where it's going to finish on each batch. You could drop the temp and knock out wb06 and t58? cbc-1 to clean up anything weird left behind by those?
Click to expand...

Maybe if you filtered out the yeast? CBC-1 could prob fight a 10:1 battle, but as you approach 100:1 I think the tide would turn.

Additionally, keep in mind that expression of the STA1 gene yields an enzyme that is secreted into the beer. Presumably this enzyme would still be there, regardless of cold crash or filtering.
 
The_Dirty_Spring said:
My latest effort (loosely based on Trinity recipe) used 93% S04 / 4% T58 / 3% WB06. Fermented at 72F day one then down to 65F for 5 days, gentle rise to 70F before crashing around day 10. DH #1 (7.5 oz Citra-Simcoe-Bravo) on day 2 and DH #2 (4 oz) on day 4 with addition of CBC-1 and dextrose to nat carb in keg. Early samples seemed close (rich, full, tropical, malt clinging to palate), but then seemed to dry out and gain phenolics over next week. Crashed around day 10. Now at day 17, slight phenols persist, which strike me as mostly T58-driven. Despite large DH, the esters overwhelm the hops. Next batch I’ll likely change ratios, bringing WB06 up and T58 down, somewhere around 93 / 2 / 5%. I’m tempted to cut the T58 altogether, as I get far more hef than Belgian in TH beers. Has anyone dropped either T58 or WB06 from primary ferm?.... other ideas?.... progress??? Thanks everyone!
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I think you’re getting the phenols from the wb06 not t58 from my experience. I still honestly don’t know where the wb06 fits in. Maybe krausening added with CBC and then crashed before it gives off any of those flavors?
 
couchsending said:
Nate has said all their beers are only dry hopped once.

In the description of Bright they talk about how they “forgo” the biotransformation dry hopping.
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Right, I believe I read somewhere that they dry hop during fermentation with Julius, Haze, Green, etc. and they dry hop post fermentation with Bright beers.
 
It sure would be nice if there was an update on the original post showing the findings thus far. I know there are good nuggets of info in here, but I am too lazy to read the 2600+ posts
 
I can’t edit the first post, I think a mod has to do it?

If there’s a consensus on info to update it with, I’m happy to do it.
 
Schreiner said:
So there is no consensus as to what the TH yeast is?
Click to expand...

You didn’t get too far in the thread did you :)

No consensus, but best educated guess is a blend of 3-4 yeasts:

Predominant strain (90+%)= S-04
Minor strains (<10%)= T-58 and WB-06
Likely conditioning strain = F2 (CBC-1)

Several people have contributed to the process, check this website (from @marshallbeer i think) out for more details:

https://trinitybrewers.com/brews/ipa/julius-clone-treehouse-brewing-ipa/
 
isomerization said:
You didn’t get too far in the thread did you :)

No consensus, but best educated guess is a blend of 3-4 yeasts:

Predominant strain (90+%)= S-04
Minor strains (<10%)= T-58 and WB-06
Likely conditioning strain = F2 (CBC-1)

Several people have contributed to the process, check this website (from @marshallbeer i think) out for more details:

https://trinitybrewers.com/brews/ipa/julius-clone-treehouse-brewing-ipa/
Click to expand...
Not really. Thanks for the lead. I was reading durring my lunch break, my time was up, so I posed the auestion.

Sent from my LG-M257 using Home Brew mobile app
 
Schreiner said:
Not really. Thanks for the lead. I was reading durring my lunch break, my time was up, so I posed the auestion.

Sent from my LG-M257 using Home Brew mobile app
Click to expand...

Honestly, the non-Treehouse info in this thread is more valuable than the yeast identification stuff. So much great info on making better hoppy beers.

I personally use 1318 or NEEPAH blend from Bootleg Biology, but I never really put much effort into testing blend ratios, ferm temp schedule, etc. I do have five 1 gallon fermenters now, so I might try a test run in the future.
 
I just dry hopped and spunded my beer at 15 psi. Im considering naturally carbing with CBC1 or F2, whichever I can get my hands on. What is the best practice for doing this based on your experiences? I want to rack my uncarbbed beer into my serving keg that contains the conditioning yeast and some sugar or DME.

I spunded (15 psi for the first few days and then 30 psi for the last day) on my last brew and I thought it added a nice mouth feel and trapped the hop presence nicely. It was slightly carbonated after the cold crash so I thinking using the conditioning strain might bump it up a notch. Here's to experimentation....
 
brewpharm Hill said:
I just dry hopped and spunded my beer at 15 psi. Im considering naturally carbing with CBC1 or F2, whichever I can get my hands on. What is the best practice for doing this based on your experiences? I want to rack my uncarbbed beer into my serving keg that contains the conditioning yeast and some sugar or DME.

I spunded (15 psi for the first few days and then 30 psi for the last day) on my last brew and I thought it added a nice mouth feel and trapped the hop presence nicely. It was slightly carbonated after the cold crash so I thinking using the conditioning strain might bump it up a notch. Here's to experimentation....
Click to expand...
My process was to closed transfer to a keg on top of primer and 2 g CBC-1 (this is for a 5 gal batch). My priming solution is usually gyle that was hot-sealed on brewday and stored in the fridge, but I would think DME or sugar would be just fine. I left mine at 68F for 12 days after kegging. You may be able to get away with less time using a simple sugar instead of DME or in my case gyle.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Home Brew mobile app
 
I've read through this thread but across such a long time I don't remember how much fermentation temp was discussed...

Listening to this week's Steal This Beer episode (recorded in Boston recently because of the IPAFest), they were talking about lactose triple IPA's being made for customers whereas brewers make 5% lagers because that is what they (brewers) like to drink. The guest then said that these lagers "don't need a ton of hops to cover up the fact that the fermentation got hot and as a result the beer is super-estery." Host follows up with "yeah and now its a style...we'll leave that there" then he segues to talking about JC Tetreault, who is a friend.

I know for a long time, detractors of NEIPA's liked to claim that they are poorly made or not finished etc. and that is how I first heard the above comments. But the host is not negative on NEIPAs I think. Could a brewing error have led to fermenting warmer than would seem wise and somehow result in enhancing some aspect of the tree house and/or trillium style?

Have any of you or others tried the s-04/t-58/etc blend at 76-80 degrees or 1318 for that matter?
 
JJ900 said:
I've read through this thread but across such a long time I don't remember how much fermentation temp was discussed...

Listening to this week's Steal This Beer episode (recorded in Boston recently because of the IPAFest), they were talking about lactose triple IPA's being made for customers whereas brewers make 5% lagers because that is what they (brewers) like to drink. The guest then said that these lagers "don't need a ton of hops to cover up the fact that the fermentation got hot and as a result the beer is super-estery." Host follows up with "yeah and now its a style...we'll leave that there" then he segues to talking about JC Tetreault, who is a friend.

I know for a long time, detractors of NEIPA's liked to claim that they are poorly made or not finished etc. and that is how I first heard the above comments. But the host is not negative on NEIPAs I think. Could a brewing error have led to fermenting warmer than would seem wise and somehow result in enhancing some aspect of the tree house and/or trillium style?

Have any of you or others tried the s-04/t-58/etc blend at 76-80 degrees or 1318 for that matter?
Click to expand...

Supposedly Trillium was fermenting Conan at 73 for a while. You could
Probably go that high with 1318. I definitely wouldn’t go 76-80 however.
Yes you’d get more esters but also lots of other stuff you don’t want.

Any amount of S04 fermented even at 70 is gross. Smells like yogurt.
 
ThePaleAleIndian said:
My process was to closed transfer to a keg on top of primer and 2 g CBC-1 (this is for a 5 gal batch). My priming solution is usually gyle that was hot-sealed on brewday and stored in the fridge, but I would think DME or sugar would be just fine. I left mine at 68F for 12 days after kegging. You may be able to get away with less time using a simple sugar instead of DME or in my case gyle.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Home Brew mobile app
Click to expand...


Thanks! I read somewhere that with priming sugar and CBC the keg could carb in 3 days... I don't know how true that is, but I guess I'll find out lol. Should I cold crash before transferring to the serving keg and bring back up to CBC friendly temps? I have a 300 micron filter on my diptube in my dry hop keg so I was thinking a cold crash isn't totally necessary. Although, a good amount of yeast will carry over.
 
StinkyBeer said:
Yeah agreed. WB-06 ladder looks a doubtful match IMO. Any other dry wit strains out there?
Click to expand...

A dried wit strain? Sure. Mangrove Jack's M21 Belgian Witbier, which I have not used but is reported by interweb searches to have pepper and pear esters. It's surely nearly "equivalent" to either WLP400 or WLP410, and the old Brewferm Blanche dried strain (which I haven't seen in a while, perhaps it's still out there?).

For whatever else it's worth, last year I made a "German" hefeweizen with WB-06 fermented cool about 60 F, and there was zero clove or banana. I think if TH carefully controls the fermentation temperature, they can get whatever they want out of either WB-06 or T-58.
 
Brewferm Blanche can still be found. I have used it along with S-04 and T-58 in an attempt to brew a NE style beer, and the beer turned out too phenolic. Partly due to pitching too much Blanche and T-58.
 
brewpharm Hill said:
Thanks! I read somewhere that with priming sugar and CBC the keg could carb in 3 days... I don't know how true that is, but I guess I'll find out lol. Should I cold crash before transferring to the serving keg and bring back up to CBC friendly temps? I have a 300 micron filter on my diptube in my dry hop keg so I was thinking a cold crash isn't totally necessary. Although, a good amount of yeast will carry over.
Click to expand...
I did cold crash mine, but I don't have a filter on the inlet when I rack. Maybe you wouldn't have to cold crash if you have a filter, not sure. As far as the time, 12 days is probably a lot more than I needed, but my 30 psi gauge pegged haha. I ended up giving it plenty of time because I have found that naturally carbing with gyle can give you high diacetyl if you cool to serving temp too early. DME may give you a similar effect, don't know, never tried it. It's possible that you'll need more time to carb up after a cold crash, but according to the data sheet, CBC-1 works down to 55F, so who knows how much of a difference that makes. 3 days seems kind of fast to me though, even with dextrose and no cold crash. Interested to hear about your results!
 
Assume any MJ yeast is an existing dry yeast, so Brewferm Blanche is quite possible. It's certainly widely available in the UK/Europe.
 
Temperatures got discussed a fair bit maybe a third of the way through the thread. Bear in mind that it's one of the biggest differences when scaling up to commercial size - the hydrostatic pressure of big vessels suppresses esters so say 73F at commercial scale is equivalent to 68F at homebrew scale or whatever. Except different compounds will be suppressed by different amounts, so it will never be quite comparable.
 
Hi All,

I've been following this thread for a while and read through it completely at least once, maybe twice. Thank you all for your contributions, especially those of you who have shared the recipes and results for several repeated batches. Following your journeys has been great. There's been a lot of interesting discussions on brewing processes and theory which have been insightful beyond chasing the white whale of cloning recipes.

About a year ago I made a poor attempt at following the clone recipe on the Trinity Brewer website. I was heavy handed with both wb-06 and t-58 and had zero temperature control. I set my ambient temperature to 72 in fear that it was too cold in my house and wound up with a banana bomb. Since then I've been keeping it simple brewing IPAs with 1318 which seems to forgive my lack of fermentation temp. control. After making some equipment upgrades and pulling off some more simple brews I'm looking to give this another shot.


My fermentation plan for a 5 gallon batch is to pitch 11.5g S04 and 1g T58 together and ferment in the low 60s. This seems to be a successful range used and aligns with northern brewers latest comment. I think the photo of the TH temp control unit showed 66 for most vessels (?) so that would be like low 60s on a commercial scale, right?

After 72 hours I plan on adding ~1-2g WB06. My hypothesis is that WB06 could be used to increase attenuation rather than for aroma/flavor. Based on a presentation by White Labs on yeast blending (linked below), yeast blending can be used for two goals: increase flavors or finish attenuation. S04 and T58 have moderate attenuation. WB06 is higher attenuating with less desirable flavors (i.e. clove).

According to the presentation yeasts added after 72 hours are unlikely to add to the flavor of aroma and beer. I thinking this could be a good way to avoid the clove/hefe flavors. This assumes that the S04/T58 needs help attenuating to clone TH/Julius. Does anyone know the FG of Julius and is that a relevant number? For example, could you guess-timate an approximate attenuation of Julius based on the FG and then use that to decide if S04 at 72-75% attenuation would need help reaching at Julius attenuation?

Interestingly, under the goal increase attenuation/fermentation performance, the presentation used as an example mixing WLP002 (medium attenuation and alcohol tolerance) with WLP007 (high attenuation). S04 is similar to WLP002 correct?

What I'm unsure of is what ratio/amount of WB06 to use as a late addition yeast. Any ideas? To be conservative i was thinking of using a small amount similar to what would be used for natural carbing (1-2g). Worst case scenario it might not do anything.


Ramblings: I'm still a bit uncertain of where the TH bubblegum characteristic comes from. When I taste TH, in particular the core beers like Julius, Alter and Green, the bubble gum flavor shows up after I taste the citrus/fruityness of the hops, but before the bitterness that finishes out the taste. I've noticed the presence of bubble gum is the least consistent characteristic of their beers. I had some Julius in November that was bursting with that flavor. My cans for last week have it but to a lesser degree. I have some apollo right now and I almost think I can detect it when I smell the hops. I'm wondering if the bubble gum is caused by some house hop blend after "bio transformation."
Sorry if this doesn't make any sense. I'm still very much a beginner (<10 batches).

Source: http://www.homebrewersassociation.o...df/2014/A Guide To Blending Yeast Strains.pdf
 
RTE said:
Hi All,

I've been following this thread for a while and read through it completely at least once, maybe twice. Thank you all for your contributions, especially those of you who have shared the recipes and results for several repeated batches. Following your journeys has been great. There's been a lot of interesting discussions on brewing processes and theory which have been insightful beyond chasing the white whale of cloning recipes.

About a year ago I made a poor attempt at following the clone recipe on the Trinity Brewer website. I was heavy handed with both wb-06 and t-58 and had zero temperature control. I set my ambient temperature to 72 in fear that it was too cold in my house and wound up with a banana bomb. Since then I've been keeping it simple brewing IPAs with 1318 which seems to forgive my lack of fermentation temp. control. After making some equipment upgrades and pulling off some more simple brews I'm looking to give this another shot.


My fermentation plan for a 5 gallon batch is to pitch 11.5g S04 and 1g T58 together and ferment in the low 60s. This seems to be a successful range used and aligns with northern brewers latest comment. I think the photo of the TH temp control unit showed 66 for most vessels (?) so that would be like low 60s on a commercial scale, right?

After 72 hours I plan on adding ~1-2g WB06. My hypothesis is that WB06 could be used to increase attenuation rather than for aroma/flavor. Based on a presentation by White Labs on yeast blending (linked below), yeast blending can be used for two goals: increase flavors or finish attenuation. S04 and T58 have moderate attenuation. WB06 is higher attenuating with less desirable flavors (i.e. clove).

According to the presentation yeasts added after 72 hours are unlikely to add to the flavor of aroma and beer. I thinking this could be a good way to avoid the clove/hefe flavors. This assumes that the S04/T58 needs help attenuating to clone TH/Julius. Does anyone know the FG of Julius and is that a relevant number? For example, could you guess-timate an approximate attenuation of Julius based on the FG and then use that to decide if S04 at 72-75% attenuation would need help reaching at Julius attenuation?

Interestingly, under the goal increase attenuation/fermentation performance, the presentation used as an example mixing WLP002 (medium attenuation and alcohol tolerance) with WLP007 (high attenuation). S04 is similar to WLP002 correct?

What I'm unsure of is what ratio/amount of WB06 to use as a late addition yeast. Any ideas? To be conservative i was thinking of using a small amount similar to what would be used for natural carbing (1-2g). Worst case scenario it might not do anything.


Ramblings: I'm still a bit uncertain of where the TH bubblegum characteristic comes from. When I taste TH, in particular the core beers like Julius, Alter and Green, the bubble gum flavor shows up after I taste the citrus/fruityness of the hops, but before the bitterness that finishes out the taste. I've noticed the presence of bubble gum is the least consistent characteristic of their beers. I had some Julius in November that was bursting with that flavor. My cans for last week have it but to a lesser degree. I have some apollo right now and I almost think I can detect it when I smell the hops. I'm wondering if the bubble gum is caused by some house hop blend after "bio transformation."
Sorry if this doesn't make any sense. I'm still very much a beginner (<10 batches).

Source: http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/attachments/presentations/pdf/2014/A Guide To Blending Yeast Strains.pdf
Click to expand...

Keep us posted on the results! I wouldn't exactly know how much yeast to pitch, but I'm guessing it would be a very small amount considering the beer will be ~50% or more attenuated. Maybe follow the Trinity amount or pitch a little more than that even.

This is very interesting... I'm wondering how CBC1 comes into play for conditioning and carbonating. I'm assuming its killer strain properties stop the WB06 from over attenuating. Their beers do have a candy-like sweetness that isn't heavy or cloying... probably a result of stopping the WB06 from over attenuating with the CBC1 ? We'll see. I want to run an experiment of this on my next batch.
 
My brew day was delayed due to some supply hiccups at the LHBS but I will report back. This is added incentive to not make any mistakes or any on the fly "adjustments."

I'm curious to see the gravity when I pitch the WB06 and also the final gravity. Of interest, Scott Janish posted a picture of him measuring Julius FG around 1.011. Fermentis reports that WB06 has an attenuation 86%. Putting it all together, Brewersfriend predicts an FG of 1.011 and ABV of 6.78% if you have an OG of 1.062 and 86% attenuation, which lines up nicely with the Julius specs!

I don't think using WB06 should lead to over attenuation but rather should be right in the ballpark of Julius. CBC1 is most likely just used for carbonation and also has the convenient property of making it impossible to recreate a TH beer from the dregs of a can.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
RTE said:
My brew day was delayed due to some supply hiccups at the LHBS but I will report back. This is added incentive to not make any mistakes or any on the fly "adjustments." I'm curious to see the gravity when I pitch the WB06 and also the final gravity. Of interest, Scott Janish posted a picture of him measuring Julius FG around 1.011. Fermentis reports that WB06 has an attenuation 86%. Putting it all together, Brewersfriend predicts an FG of 1.011 and ABV of 6.78% if you have an OG of 1.062 and 86% attenuation, which lines up nicely with the Julius specs! I don't think using WB06 should lead to over attenuation but rather should be right in the ballpark of Julius. CBC1 is most likely just used for carbonation and also has the convenient property of making it impossible to recreate a TH beer from the dregs of a can.
Click to expand...
RTE said:
My brew day was delayed due to some supply hiccups at the LHBS but I will report back. This is added incentive to not make any mistakes or any on the fly "adjustments." I'm curious to see the gravity when I pitch the WB06 and also the final gravity. Of interest, Scott Janish posted a picture of him measuring Julius FG around 1.011. Fermentis reports that WB06 has an attenuation 86%. Putting it all together, Brewersfriend predicts an FG of 1.011 and ABV of 6.78% if you have an OG of 1.062 and 86% attenuation, which lines up nicely with the Julius specs! I don't think using WB06 should lead to over attenuation but rather should be right in the ballpark of Julius. CBC1 is most likely just used for carbonation and also has the convenient property of making it impossible to recreate a TH beer from the dregs of a can.
Click to expand...
 
Sorry about that weird post^

My experience with Diastaticus is that it will keep munching often up to or beyond 90% AA.

Another thing to factor in is that if you dry hop during fermentation you pretty much always get a leap in attenuation also due to the rousing effect caused by nucleation points.

These 2 points make me doubt wb-06.
 
StinkyBeer said:
Sorry about that weird post^

My experience with Diastaticus is that it will keep munching often up to or beyond 90% AA.

Another thing to factor in is that if you dry hop during fermentation you pretty much always get a leap in attenuation also due to the rousing effect caused by nucleation points.

These 2 points make me doubt wb-06.
Click to expand...
I don't have a whole lot of experience with diastaticus strains other than WB-06, but this has absolutely been my experience with that strain. Hugely attenuative, and the residual sweetness reflects the high attenuation for sure. My attempts with a lot of WB-06 turned out very dry.

I will say though, I had a happy accident on my one blended batch, the 100% WB-06 part of the blend stalled at like 1.030 or something. Since it was only 20% of the total batch volume, I went ahead with the blend and keg conditioned with CBC-1 and gyle. That batch had a very nice residual sweetness to it. I can only hypothesize that the WB-06 never reactivated during conditioning...
 
Yes they contain enzymes, also some sugars and a huge quantity of nucleation sites.

Hop Creep

You can limit and pretty much banish the creep by reaching fg, soft crashing to 15, dump yeast and dry hopping at that temp.
 
StinkyBeer said:
Yes they contain enzymes, also some sugars and a huge quantity of nucleation sites.

Hop Creep

You can limit and pretty much banish the creep by reaching fg, soft crashing to 15, dump yeast and dry hopping at that temp.
Click to expand...

Yeah this is what I’ve been doing and haven’t been able to get any hop creep (even when I want to). I’ll even warm it back up to 65/68 and still don’t get any activity or drop in FG.
 
I am wondering if TH still uses these dry yeasts? When I contacted Gigayeast, they said they have TH proprietary yeast on file but would not share any info with me? Unless TH just sends them the yeast cakes to store in case they need some one day?
 
elgee said:
I am wondering if TH still uses these dry yeasts? When I contacted Gigayeast, they said they have TH proprietary yeast on file but would not share any info with me? Unless TH just sends them the yeast cakes to store in case they need some one day?
Click to expand...
"On file" meaning they store and maintain a culture for TH, or meaning the TH yeast is one of their strains that are available to homebrewers? Any chance you can post their response?
 
ThePaleAleIndian said:
"On file" meaning they store and maintain a culture for TH, or meaning the TH yeast is one of their strains that are available to homebrewers? Any chance you can post their response?
Click to expand...

This has been a rumor for a while. That they are the yeast bank Tree House uses to maintain their culture. Who knows.
 

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