Isolated Yeast (Tree House): How to Identify and Characterize?

[skibb]

With how varied/off-and-on their beers seem to be for you all, they are having nearly as hard of a time nailing down the fermentation profile as we are!

With all this hit and miss, it definitely sounds like they are blending yeast (and not tanks/batches) to me.

 

[melville]

Having a Julius pint right now. Tastes just fine to me.

 

[mikeroesoft]

Not Treehouse, but here's a video that appears to show HF Abner was possibly, at one point early on at least, fermented with WLP001. Check out 2:55 of this video....

 

[melville]

Not Treehouse, but here's a video that appears to show HF Abner was possibly, at one point early on at least, fermented with WLP001. Check out 2:55 of this video....

Nice one. Sort of squares with the thinking that Tired Hands uses a S-04 and S-05 blend.

 

[couchsending]

Pretty sure they’ve moved on from that... Shaun has specifically stated he uses a yeast that’s a high floccer... definitely not anything close to Chico

 

[LumberZach]

Has a water profile been nailed down for this?

 

[crunkpirate]

My last few porch bombs of TH core beers haven't been quite up to par for me, due to a lack of that bubblegum character.

But then I tried the recent canning of Bbbright w/ citra, and there it was...which has got me scratching my head about their "clean American ale yeast to create a flavor profile that is more a function of its vibrant fresh ingredients than an expression of yeast character."

Is the bubblegum coming from somewhere else? Or are we possibly mistaken that the gold star is wb-06? I know we ruled out 1272, but maybe there's something similar that's worth a shot.

 

[couchsending]

Has a water profile been nailed down for this?

When I was at the brewery a few weeks ago all the brewing salts are hanging out downstairs right below the railing. The only salts I saw were gypsum, CaCl, MgS04, and CaCo3. The MgSo4 bag was tiny, all other bags were of similar size. I also saw three containers labeled salts near the mash tun (looked like Tupperware containers you would put cereal in). One was about 3/4 full with what I would assume is CaSo4 the other two were maybe 1/4 full. Nate has said their beers are highish in So4 and lowish in CL.

 

[ThePaleAleIndian]

When I was at the brewery a few weeks ago all the brewing salts are hanging out downstairs right below the railing. The only salts I saw were gypsum, CaCl, MgS04, and CaCo3. The MgSo4 bag was tiny, all other bags were of similar size. I also saw three containers labeled salts near the mash tun (looked like Tupperware containers you would put cereal in). One was about 3/4 full with what I would assume is CaSo4 the other two were maybe 1/4 full. Nate has said their beers are highish in So4 and lowish in CL.

That's really interesting. I wonder if they've changed their water profile and/or what salts they use to get there. That BYO article from a while back where they analyzed Alter Ego for mineral profile suggested very little calcium, magnesium and sodium and more chloride than sulfate. Also very high potassium. It's tricky to analyze a finished beer and glean anything about the brewing water profile, but the nice thing about that article was that Michael had both his brewing water and finished beer analyzed to compare. So at least we have a rough idea of the changes in each mineral over the process. Michael started with about 2.5:1 Cl:SO4 in his water and his finished beer ended up having very similar Cl and SO4 levels to Alter Ego, IIRC. However, he was much higher on Ca and much, much lower on K.

I wonder if they used to use K2SO4 for sulfate and have since switched to MgSO4. And KCl for Cl previously and CaCl2 now. Who knows.

 

[couchsending]

That's really interesting. I wonder if they've changed their water profile and/or what salts they use to get there. That BYO article from a while back where they analyzed Alter Ego for mineral profile suggested very little calcium, magnesium and sodium and more chloride than sulfate. Also very high potassium. It's tricky to analyze a finished beer and glean anything about the brewing water profile, but the nice thing about that article was that Michael had both his brewing water and finished beer analyzed to compare. So at least we have a rough idea of the changes in each mineral over the process. Michael started with about 2.5:1 Cl:SO4 in his water and his finished beer ended up having very similar Cl and SO4 levels to Alter Ego, IIRC. However, he was much higher on Ca and much, much lower on K.

I wonder if they used to use K2SO4 for sulfate and have since switched to MgSO4. And KCl for Cl previously and CaCl2 now. Who knows.

This issue is how much malt adds and how much it all changes during fermentation. Malt adds piles of chloride and certain malts might add more than others.

Another source of the potassium could be the Co2 extract they use. From what I’ve read it’s made using potasssium salts of some sort.

TH beers seem very light in the pallet to me. They’re soft but much lighter than most beers of this style. I attribute that to the higher FG coupled with a profile that emphasizes So4. Not perceived as sweet due to the drying like effect of So4 but still with that little extra body from a high FG.

 

[TheHairyHop]

Wow, wow, wow. Anyone have this beer? It's hop saturation on the level of TH. Not quite the mouth feel, but the flavor profile is spot on

 

[day_trippr]

3 favorable if inconsistent reviews on BA...

 

[ThePaleAleIndian]

Been out of the game for a bit but I'm brewing tomorrow. My lesson learned from my last attempt (the blended batch with about 15-20% all-WB-06) was that I need even more of that banana-bubblegum thing. So I'm going to try something.

Planning to underpitch WY3638 warm and ferment warm. About 6% C10, 12% Carafoam and the balance Pils malt with acidulated malt as needed. No wheat to minimize ferulic acid.

Best case scenario I get the esters character I want without any clove phenolics. Worst case scenario, I make a clove-y, fusel-y undrinkable mess. If nothing else, it'll give me a feel for how an "alternative" wheat yeast (which to me is a good descriptor of WB-06) behaves by itself, while stacking the odds against the phenolics.

I'll post the full recipe when it's being served.

Wish me luck. Here, hold my beer...

 

[The_Dirty_Spring]

Been out of the game for a bit but I'm brewing tomorrow. My lesson learned from my last attempt (the blended batch with about 15-20% all-WB-06) was that I need even more of that banana-bubblegum thing. So I'm going to try something.

Planning to underpitch WY3638 warm and ferment warm. About 6% C10, 12% Carafoam and the balance Pils malt with acidulated malt as needed. No wheat to minimize ferulic acid.

Best case scenario I get the esters character I want without any clove phenolics. Worst case scenario, I make a clove-y, fusel-y undrinkable mess. If nothing else, it'll give me a feel for how an "alternative" wheat yeast (which to me is a good descriptor of WB-06) behaves by itself, while stacking the odds against the phenolics.

I'll post the full recipe when it's being served.

Wish me luck. Here, hold my beer...

Godspeed, good soldier.

 

[ThePaleAleIndian]

Had a mostly uneventful brewday. Couple minor equipment snags.

The one big thing was that as I was carrying my carboy (after pitching the yeast and sealing it) across my house to my ferm chamber, I noticed something black floating in it. Upon closer inspection, I realized it was a fruit fly. Today was probably one of the hottest days of the year in my area, and the bugs are out in force. After a few choice words, I fished the little bastard out with a sanitized bendable straw. Oh well. No way to turn back time. I'm going to proceed as normal. The batch won't be hanging around long anyway, so hopefully any acetobacter or whatever the damn thing was carrying won't have a real chance to get a foothold.

Fruit fly woes aside, I pitched WY3638 at 75F wort temp and am fermenting at a controlled 75F ambient. No boil hops, but 4 oz of Citra and 4 oz of Mosaic for a hopstand at 170F. I will probably raise the ambient temp a bit in my ferm chamber when I add the biotrans hops, which will be tomorrow or the day after.

 

[lilbova3]

If you want to elevate softness, try krausening the beer. I tried it with a beer I just made and it’s definitely softer. Inspiration came from a post from Hill Farmstead about krausening Mary (their Pilsner) and how soft they get it. Also got inspiration from wanting to make a beer like Bright. Tree House is known to use American Ale yeast in Bright but still gets the beer so soft. American Ale yeast in my mind is not soft.

When drinking the beer, it has a mouthfeel that almost feels under carbed because it’s not ‘prickly’ but swish the beer around in the glass or in your mouth and you get bubbles. This beer is 90% Maris Otter, 5% White Wheat and 5% Carapils. I wonder how much more mouthfeel I could get if I added oats.

If you haven’t tried krausening, I’d recommend giving it a try.

 

[TheHairyHop]

If you want to elevate softness, try krausening the beer. I tried it with a beer I just made and it’s definitely softer. Inspiration came from a post from Hill Farmstead about krausening Mary (their Pilsner) and how soft they get it. Also got inspiration from wanting to make a beer like Bright. Tree House is known to use American Ale yeast in Bright but still gets the beer so soft. American Ale yeast in my mind is not soft.

When drinking the beer, it has a mouthfeel that almost feels under carbed because it’s not ‘prickly’ but swish the beer around in the glass or in your mouth and you get bubbles. This beer is 90% Maris Otter, 5% White Wheat and 5% Carapils. I wonder how much more mouthfeel I could get if I added oats.

If you haven’t tried krausening, I’d recommend giving it a try.

View attachment 578228

What is your krausening process?

 

[lilbova3]

BrewersFriend has a calculator for gyle/krausening which I used. I reserved the amount of wort the calculator said to from brew day. Put it in a sanitized growler in the fridge. Then from there it’s all about timing. How long do you want the beer in the fermenter to ferment. After you decide the timing you want to do pull the growler from the fridge about a day and a half before kegging. Allow krausen wort to get to room temp. Pitch the amount of yeast from the calculator in the wort for krausening. I let it go about 18 hours before transferring beer from fermenter and krausened beer to keg. I siphoned the beer from the fermenter and just poured the krausened beer into the keg, nothing fancy. Let the keg sit three days at 70* to carb. Put the keg in the kegerator for 24 hours and then put gas on it. When I hooked up the gas the regulator said I had 20 PSI in the keg so I had to bleed it some. Ideally you won’t have to bleed it to keep all the aroma in the keg.

 

[TheHairyHop]

BrewersFriend has a calculator for gyle/krausening which I used. I reserved the amount of wort the calculator said to from brew day. Put it in a sanitized growler in the fridge. Then from there it’s all about timing. How long do you want the beer in the fermenter to ferment. After you decide the timing you want to do pull the growler from the fridge about a day and a half before kegging. Allow krausen wort to get to room temp. Pitch the amount of yeast from the calculator in the wort for krausening. I let it go about 18 hours before transferring beer from fermenter and krausened beer to keg. I siphoned the beer from the fermenter and just poured the krausened beer into the keg, nothing fancy. Let the keg sit three days at 70* to carb. Put the keg in the kegerator for 24 hours and then put gas on it. When I hooked up the gas the regulator said I had 20 PSI in the keg so I had to bleed it some. Ideally you won’t have to bleed it to keep all the aroma in the keg.

I find that people interchange "krausening" and "speisse" without knowing there is a difference, so I had to ask. Thanks for the elaboration!

 

[couchsending]

Krausening is definitely an awesome way to increase the perception of softness in the beer. I’ve been krausening all my lagers and just about every beer these days if I have the time.

Just krausened a Wit with a lager fermentation actually. Haven’t read of Belgian brewers doing that but German brewers will definitely krausen wheat beers with lager fermentation.

I don’t like to save wort from the batch just due to the potential oxidation effects. In my experience it’s not that critical to krausen something with exactly the same beer. Obviously it depends on gravity but you’re never really adding a bunch of krausen to the keg. I krausened a Belgian Pale with all noble hops with a Pale Ale that has piles of Galaxy in WP. I couldn’t detect any Galaxy in in the Belgian beer and it was a very clean Belgian yeast so there wasn’t really any phenols to hide anything under.

I don’t think Oats really make any beer soft, they’re kinda slick feeling and add a thick/full feeling almost. TH beers are all soft but also incredibly light. Maybe oats in a really low ABV beer could help in palate fullness but I don’t think you need to add them to anything over 5-5.5% if you want a mouthfeel similar to TH.

Interesting on the American Ale yeast and “soft” perception. I’ve actually seen 1056/001/US05 described by one of the yeast manufacturers as soft. I think the issue is you usually associate it’s use with force carbed more traditional beers. It doesn’t produce a bunch of acid on its own so technically it might have a softer feel. Would be interested to see if yeast harvested from a Bright would ferment all the way out. If it stalls at 1.020 that most likely means there’s some CBC-1 in there so naturally carbed and hence the softness.

 

[mikeroesoft]

I have a hunch that HF krausens all their beers. Edward is always available and I believe the reason for this is to either create yeast to pitch into other clean beers and to always have something consistent for krausening. Also, anyone else notice Shirley Mae is always available on cask in the tap room. I am convinced Shirley Mae serves the same function as Edward, only for the porters and stouts. There's no doubt that natural carbonation creates softer beer with much better foam and head retention. Its extra effort at the homebrew level, but worth it in my opinion.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

The application forms for CAMRA membership are here...

 

[stickyfinger]

Is there an advantage to krausening vs just spunding to reach desired carbonation? I guess if you spund with priming sugar, you are diluting the wort some, but it's a pretty small effect.

 

[mikeroesoft]

Is there an advantage to krausening vs just spunding to reach desired carbonation? I guess if you spund with priming sugar, you are diluting the wort some, but it's a pretty small effect.

I suppose you could, and suspect many do, krausen and spund to make sure the pressure in the carbing vessel is correct? The advantage to krausening is that your adding the freshest, actively fermenting yeast possible to carbonate.

 

[TheHairyHop]

BrewersFriend has a calculator for gyle/krausening which I used. I reserved the amount of wort the calculator said to from brew day. Put it in a sanitized growler in the fridge. Then from there it’s all about timing. How long do you want the beer in the fermenter to ferment. After you decide the timing you want to do pull the growler from the fridge about a day and a half before kegging. Allow krausen wort to get to room temp. Pitch the amount of yeast from the calculator in the wort for krausening. I let it go about 18 hours before transferring beer from fermenter and krausened beer to keg. I siphoned the beer from the fermenter and just poured the krausened beer into the keg, nothing fancy. Let the keg sit three days at 70* to carb. Put the keg in the kegerator for 24 hours and then put gas on it. When I hooked up the gas the regulator said I had 20 PSI in the keg so I had to bleed it some. Ideally you won’t have to bleed it to keep all the aroma in the keg.

so, this seems to be a bit incompatible with closed transferring to a purged keg. That is, unless you close transfer the krausen wort into the purged keg first

 

[couchsending]

Close transfer fermented beer into purged keg, close transfer krausen beer after that.. all done by weight. Put your keg on a scale and see how much everything weighs with water first. Super easy

 

[stickyfinger]

I suppose you could, and suspect many do, krausen and spund to make sure the pressure in the carbing vessel is correct? The advantage to krausening is that your adding the freshest, actively fermenting yeast possible to carbonate.

OK, I suppose that makes sense, certainly if you age your beer in the fermenter for an extended period before carbonating.

 

[NJGeorge]

Maybe those small fermenters that we were all talking about are strictly for krausening? Pretty sure there is 8 of them now at the new facility. When I was there mid June it looked like only one or two were being used. ‍

 

[lilbova3]

The extra effort to krausen is worth a try once and see what you think. I’m going to continue to do it.

My brew is a session/pale ale at 5%. Would be interested to get the ABV higher to see how mouthfeel and softness might improve. Or use a different yeast with lower attenuation.

I’ve never done a closed transfer, yes I know, on my hoppy beers and have never had an issue. Maybe I’m just lucky. Purge the keg really well before transferring and then purge again with CO2 to seal the lid and get rid of any O2. Just saying it’s not the end of the world if you don’t close transfer and want to try this.

 

[mikeroesoft]

OK, I suppose that makes sense, certainly if you age your beer in the fermenter for an extended period before carbonating.

Based on some recent experiments, I am thinking that the process could be...
Primary
D-Rest
Cold crash/drop yeast
Dry hop & krausen (see below)
Package

I have tried dry hopping during primary and have gotten some grassy off flavours. Personally, I don't like it but I do think biotransformation is a thing. So I've recently dry hop'd while krausening. According to my own unscientific theory, it does get you a similar result without the extended contact time. I put the hops in a stainless mesh cylinder right in the keg while the beer is carbing. I feel like krausening and dry hopping at the same time scavenges O2 and traps the aromatics in the bubbles (maybe?, I like to think it does...) I haven't nailed this down yet as I didn't pay close enough attention to the temperature difference between the krausen/dry hop temp (58-59F) and the temp of the fermenting beer from which I sourced the krausening liquid (68F). But YMMV...

*It just occurred to me that maybe a blend of T-58 and CBC-1/F2 are used for carbing. Both are recommended for conditioning and have temp ranges that go but the lower the temperature, the slower the refermentation. So, I am not sure.

 

[NJGeorge]

*It just occurred to me that maybe a blend of T-58 and CBC-1/F2 are used for carbing. Both are recommended for conditioning and have temp ranges that go but the lower the temperature, the slower the refermentation. So, I am not sure.

I doubt it man. We talked about that idea. I had a recent batch of so4 and t-58 and it reminded me of Sap. It would be more plausible if they were krausening with a wb batch and throw in the CBC to take over retaining some eaters maybe. Who knows haha

 

[echoALEia]

Based on some recent experiments, I am thinking that the process could be...
Primary
D-Rest
Cold crash/drop yeast
Dry hop & krausen (see below)
Package

I have tried dry hopping during primary and have gotten some grassy off flavours. Personally, I don't like it but I do think biotransformation is a thing. So I've recently dry hop'd while krausening. According to my own unscientific theory, it does get you a similar result without the extended contact time. I put the hops in a stainless mesh cylinder right in the keg while the beer is carbing. I feel like krausening and dry hopping at the same time scavenges O2 and traps the aromatics in the bubbles (maybe?, I like to think it does...) I haven't nailed this down yet as I didn't pay close enough attention to the temperature difference between the krausen/dry hop temp (58-59F) and the temp of the fermenting beer from which I sourced the krausening liquid (68F). But YMMV...

*It just occurred to me that maybe a blend of T-58 and CBC-1/F2 are used for carbing. Both are recommended for conditioning and have temp ranges that go but the lower the temperature, the slower the refermentation. So, I am not sure.

I agree with this process, however, my only question is why blend strains that you are using just for carbing?

 

[skleice]

Amazing thread, but hard to keep up!

Is this the Trinity ratio/schedule generally still a good starting point?

Day 1 – S04/T58/WB06:92%/5%/3% – pitch all day 1 at regular pitching temp 72º
Day 2 – reduce temperature to 64º
Day 8 – raise temp to 70* and dry hop
Day 10 – cold crash for 2 days and keg or bottle

Not making a straight clone, but may use this for my next NEIPA. My last batch of S0-4 gave off a sour note (fermented to high), so I don't want that again. No biotransformation dry hop? THANKS

 

[TheHairyHop]

The extra effort to krausen is worth a try once and see what you think. I’m going to continue to do it.

My brew is a session/pale ale at 5%. Would be interested to get the ABV higher to see how mouthfeel and softness might improve. Or use a different yeast with lower attenuation.

I’ve never done a closed transfer, yes I know, on my hoppy beers and have never had an issue. Maybe I’m just lucky. Purge the keg really well before transferring and then purge again with CO2 to seal the lid and get rid of any O2. Just saying it’s not the end of the world if you don’t close transfer and want to try this.

healthy and active yeast are great O2 scrubbers. They could be sucking up the free O2 before any damage is done

 

[lilbova3]

Based on some recent experiments, I am thinking that the process could be...
Primary
D-Rest
Cold crash/drop yeast
Dry hop & krausen (see below)
Package

I have tried dry hopping during primary and have gotten some grassy off flavours. Personally, I don't like it but I do think biotransformation is a thing. So I've recently dry hop'd while krausening. According to my own unscientific theory, it does get you a similar result without the extended contact time. I put the hops in a stainless mesh cylinder right in the keg while the beer is carbing. I feel like krausening and dry hopping at the same time scavenges O2 and traps the aromatics in the bubbles (maybe?, I like to think it does...) I haven't nailed this down yet as I didn't pay close enough attention to the temperature difference between the krausen/dry hop temp (58-59F) and the temp of the fermenting beer from which I sourced the krausening liquid (68F). But YMMV...

*It just occurred to me that maybe a blend of T-58 and CBC-1/F2 are used for carbing. Both are recommended for conditioning and have temp ranges that go but the lower the temperature, the slower the refermentation. So, I am not sure.

Process looks good.

I did not cold crash because I didn’t want to add a couple of more days to the process. If you cold crash you’ll want the beer to warm again before adding krausened beer. I rocked/shook the carboy lightly the last few days of the beer being in the fermenter to help drop the dry hops.

Also, I always add hops to the keg. I did this time as well. I figured I’d trap the biotransformation but had to bleed the keg anyways. I bet if you get the calculations dialed in and don’t have to do that the aroma will be out of this world! By the way, my first pour was a hoppy mess and the subsequent pours have had hop material in them but that doesn’t bother me. It’ll stop eventually. But I attribute that to not cold crashing and the hops in the keg.

healthy and active yeast are great O2 scrubbers. They could be sucking up the free O2 before any damage is done

Precisely! I also got the krausen idea from you HairyHop, I think you did it awhile back.

 

[duelerx]

Close transfer fermented beer into purged keg, close transfer krausen beer after that.. all done by weight. Put your keg on a scale and see how much everything weighs with water first. Super easy

How would you closed transfer Krausen beer into the purge keg?

 

[couchsending]

How would you closed transfer Krausen beer into the purge keg?

I have Conicals, you could easily do it with the pressure transfer pieces you use for carboys as well.

I transfer fermented beer to keg leaving room for the required amount of krausen beer (1-2qts). I then hook up a purged line from the keg out to the sample port on my conical and put the pressure transfer piece on the top of my conical and push 1-2qts through the sample valve into the keg and voila. Would be no different than with a carboy although it’s a little more difficult to purge the line but not really. All done on a scale by weight.

 

[melville]

This seems new:
https://www.whitelabs.com/yeast-bank/wlp067-coastal-haze-ale-yeast-blend

 

[melville]

This seems new:
https://www.whitelabs.com/yeast-bank/wlp067-coastal-haze-ale-yeast-blend

I'm guessing a blend of Burlington, London Fog, and WLP644.
(has an idea about using Imperial A24 with t-58/wb-06...)

 

[melville]

Also a blend of WLP066 + WLP644 + WLP300 might be fun.

(edited for clarity)