Isolated Yeast (Tree House): How to Identify and Characterize?

[ThePaleAleIndian]

So quick update on my blended batch. Haven't drawn a sample yet, but I've been recording the pressure in the keg as it's naturally carbing up with CBC-1 at 70F. Just finishing up day 4 in the keg. It is now at 24 psi and tapering off, so that assuages my concerns about overcarbing due to differences in attenuation between the strains, etc. I doubt it will make it much past 30 psi at room temp, which was my target.

The plan is to wait for the pressure to stabilize then chill to serving temp.

 

[jakturner]

View attachment 555615
The last batch, almost all Citra. Kicked this keg this weekend and filled it with another of my usual malt suspects and latest yeast % blend, but with lactose (3.5%) and vanilla beans. Mostly Galaxy and Cashmere with some Amarillo and Vic Secret.

Hoping I can use the lactose and vanilla dosing to get a feel for how much I'd need in a stout.

Love that orange color, which grainbill did you use on this?

 

[jakturner]

A little off topic, but an idea I got from this thread none the less. On my next NEIPA I'm going to make 6 gallons and ferment 2 gals in a 3gal corny with danstar classic Munich, and 4 gallons in a 5 gal corny with London ale III, then jump them both into a 5gal keg. I just so happen to have got 4 packs of the Munich classic for free, I'm gonna try to get some banana/bubblegum out of it. Anyone have experience this yeast? This will be my first time using it.

 

[isomerization]

Heeeey, glad to see you back! Tried anything with the yeast trio lately?

Between the holidays, a new(ish) job and brewing non-IPAs for a comp I just entered, I haven't been able to try anything recently. I don't recall if I shared this, but last fall I tried using the method outline by @marshallb and I ended up with passion fruit juice, lol. The hops were almost neutralized by the S-04 tang. The beer was enjoyed by many, but not what I was trying for. I do have plans for a legit side-by-side with 1318 (my IPA hero) using the "consensus" approach from recent posts.

 

[isomerization]

I believe @isomerization tested a Treehouse stout and there was one yeast present and it wasn't like anything he had tested? I could be wrong.

Anyone degassed any of their stout's and taken a FG? I would assume they're probably pretty high??

The only thing I can say about that, is that the yeast had a unique DNA pattern restive to everything else I tested. Huge caveat though, I tested that yeast before realizing TH was using blends, so a single colony was picked and analyzed.

 

[isomerization]

There is so much great information in this thread, love it!

One thing that I think could be greatly improved would be a "best practices" approach for anyone wanting to try this at home. Anyone with hands-on experience care to make a detailed post? I'm talking grain bill (%s), mash profile (temp, salts, timing, pH, etc), yeast ratios (copitch seems to be settled on) and fermentation process (temps, single vessel, etc). Obviously anything else that seems important could be included as well.

 

[Korx]

There is so much great information in this thread, love it!

One thing that I think could be greatly improved would be a "best practices" approach for anyone wanting to try this at home. Anyone with hands-on experience care to make a detailed post? I'm talking grain bill (%s), mash profile (temp, salts, timing, pH, etc), yeast ratios (copitch seems to be settled on) and fermentation process (temps, single vessel, etc). Obviously anything else that seems important could be included as well.

I agree that would be helpful. I understand that we’re shooting for perfection here, but how close do people think they are to the real thing? 60% there? 90% there?

 

[ThePaleAleIndian]

how close do people think they are to the real thing? 60% there? 90% there?

So of my first two attempts the first one was kind of a flop. Super tart and lots of clove character. That one was co-pitched with 7.5% WB-06 and 6.7% T-58 at 77F and allowed to ferment at 69F ish ambient.

My second attempt was a good beer in its own right, and I feel like the mouthfeel was very close. However, it was missing the banana-bubblegum thing and, for the most part, the almost-pepper spice thing as well. That one was co-pitched with 3% WB-06 and 6% T-58 at 61F and controlled to 61F then ramped to 67F.

I have high hopes for the blended batch that is naturally carbing up now. My samples from kegging time seemed to have all the elements I want from one side of the blend or the other. I reserve judgement on that until I tap though.

 

[thehaze]

From experience, T-58 will get weird-ish at lower temps., resulting in a clovey/spicy mess. It does fare better at a higher temp. something like 70-72F. I once did an experiment with the 3 yeast strains and hold the fermentation temp. at around 18C/65F and it was OK, as I wanted to avoid any tart/tangy flavours from S-04. But T-58 came through a bit, with some mild-medium spice/clove.

 

[ThePaleAleIndian]

IMHO there's a couple of things going on with the phenolic flavors. The core trio has the potential to make clove, which seems to be undesirable to many (myself included) as compared to TH core beers. The trio also has the potential to make pepper phenolics, which many DO perceive in small amounts in TH beers (myself included again).

Thus far, I have been operating under the assumption that the WB-06 makes the clove phenolics and the T-58 makes the pepper. The Fermentis spec sheets on the two strains seem to support this. Also, my perception on the blended batch that I just kegged supports this as well in my mind. The S-04/T-58 part of the blend had no clove phenolics, but did have some subtle pepper, just like in Tree House beers. That one was pitched at 59F and fermented at a controlled 61F with a co-pitch of 15% T-58 and 85% S-04.

 

[TheHairyHop]

I agree that would be helpful. I understand that we’re shooting for perfection here, but how close do people think they are to the real thing? 60% there? 90% there?

IMO, mashing high and pitching 1318 gets you between 75-90% there. You just end up missing some of those bubblegum notes that WB-06 may be providing. Mouthfeel and some fruit esters get you a great NEIPA. I know this isn't the most popular opinion, but London Ale III is applied to this style for a reason. I would play around more with WB, but I don't have temp control after my last move. On another note, Burton Ale 023 doesn't come close

 

[couchsending]

Based on all the batches I’ve done I would say s04/T58 at 90/10 or max 85/15 fermented at 60-62 is pretty close when it comes to the correct esters without clove. I feel like I still get clove from the WB-06 regardless of the percentage if pitched at the beginning of fermentation. Last small experiment I did was 87/10/3 and the orange aroma was more intense than anything I’ve ever made but the clove was present in the flavor. I’ve only done one batch with only S04/T58 and that was the first one at 75/25 fermented at 66 and that was straight spice.

From everything I’ve read on WB06 it needs to be fermented warm to produce any banana character. Fermenting it at the temp S04 needs to be used at to not produce a bready/lactic type of profile (60-62) just leads to lots of clove.

I could see the WB06 used for increasing attenuation, eliminating diacetyl, and staying in suspension to promote haze but not necessarily as much for esters. I don’t get to drink TH beers all that often but I don’t believe I’ve ever gotten banana. You need to really concentrate to get the bubblegum and pepper too I think, but it’s there. My next batch will be 90/10 S04/T-58 fermented cold for maybe the first 72 then let it ramp up and pitch the WB06 at higher temps to finish attenuation and eat up any possible diacetyl. Which I’ve been reading can definitely be created by DH additions starting a small secondary ferment.

 

[drelickj]

I don’t get to drink TH beers all that often but I don’t believe I’ve ever gotten banana

FWIW I always thought the same thing until my most recent trip 2 weeks ago when I bought an allotment of Alter Ego. I poured one into a TH glass and it started to foam up so I quickly drank the foam on the top and the flavor was 100% banana. No bubblegum, just banana. I had never experienced such a prominent banana flavor in any TH beer and I had been keeping an eye out for it since the inception of this thread. I live in MA so there was no issue with temperature fluctuation or extended age on these beers. They were purchased, brought home, and refrigerated. The one I had was consumed at about 1 week off the line.

 

[ThePaleAleIndian]

FWIW I always thought the same thing until my most recent trip 2 weeks ago when I bought an allotment of Alter Ego. I poured one into a TH glass and it started to foam up so I quickly drank the foam on the top and the flavor was 100% banana. No bubblegum, just banana. I had never experienced such a prominent banana flavor in any TH beer and I had been keeping an eye out for it since the inception of this thread. I live in MA so there was no issue with temperature fluctuation or extended age on these beers. They were purchased, brought home, and refrigerated. The one I had was consumed at about 1 week off the line.

I have perceived banana from Haze and Doppelganger (the imperial version of Alter Ego). With the Haze, it was right there. I didn't have to look for it or think about it beforehand. I wouldn't call it a dominant flavor, but calling it the dominant ester might be appropriate. With the Doppelganger, I got it the most from a degassed, room temp hydrometer sample. After that I caught it drinking Doppelganger carbed and serving temp as well.

I also got bubblegum from that Doppelganger, and my 100% WB-06 small batch was VERY reminiscent of that combination of bubblegum and banana character at kegging. Fwiw.

 

[Jmash]

When I was a kid Bubblicious used to make a banana bubblegum. Maybe that would describe the flavor better. I grabbed some Doubleganger last week. Now the strength of that flavor is exponential.

 

[stonebrewer]

The banana and bubblegum might be like diacetyl in that some people are more sensitive to it than others? I know I have gotten both the clove and banana when brewing Hefe and Dunkels. I have a friend who is a BJCP judge who is very sensitive to diacetyl...I can't pick it out unless it is what he would call a worst offender type beer. Had many (not enough!) Tree House beers and never detected either flavor. I will "look for it" next time I get up that way to get some, which should be next month. Will also be stopping at Trillium to get a couple of cases...;> Here's hoping TH can continue to ramp up production so I can get a case or so. Last time I think I got 8 beers for a long drive and long wait in the cold. Still a lot better than the first time I went when they were in that tiny shed and only did growlers...Julius kicked the growler before mine and I was sad...for a few seconds until I remembered I was still getting Green and Sap. I think we waited for over 2.5 hours for our growlers!

Anyhow, looking forward to what @ThePaleAleIndian has to report on his science project and hopefully someone putting together the current "state of the art" recipes on a couple of Tree House's finests. In the meantime, I may try @TheHairyHop 's suggestion a few posts back while waiting for the dust to settle on this long running experiment. I always have 1318 in the yeast fridge, so why not? Cheers!

 

[Joeneugs]

Sorry if this has been mentioned already, but White Labs reports isoamyl acetate levels above flavor thresholds at .79 ppm in 007. This could be a source of the Tree House banana character. Has that strain been analyzed next to the dregs?

 

[Jmash]

The banana and bubblegum might be like diacetyl in that some people are more sensitive to it than others? I know I have gotten both the clove and banana when brewing Hefe and Dunkels. I have a friend who is a BJCP judge who is very sensitive to diacetyl...I can't pick it out unless it is what he would call a worst offender type beer. Had many (not enough!) Tree House beers and never detected either flavor. I will "look for it" next time I get up that way to get some, which should be next month. Will also be stopping at Trillium to get a couple of cases...;> Here's hoping TH can continue to ramp up production so I can get a case or so. Last time I think I got 8 beers for a long drive and long wait in the cold. Still a lot better than the first time I went when they were in that tiny shed and only did growlers...Julius kicked the growler before mine and I was sad...for a few seconds until I remembered I was still getting Green and Sap. I think we waited for over 2.5 hours for our growlers!

As long as there isn't a canning line snafu or you don't get there late on a Saturday you should be good. Especially if it's Lights Out or Bright. Always plenty of that ha

 

[stonebrewer]

As long as there isn't a canning line snafu or you don't get there late on a Saturday you should be good. Especially if it's Lights Out or Bright. Always plenty of that ha

I will definitely go during the week. Is WED or THUR better? I think my bud in the area told me THUR might be better as they have a second set of cans run by then and you might get 3-4 different beers?

 

[TheHairyHop]

Anyhow, looking forward to what @ThePaleAleIndian has to report on his science project and hopefully someone putting together the current "state of the art" recipes on a couple of Tree House's finests. In the meantime, I may try @TheHairyHop 's suggestion a few posts back while waiting for the dust to settle on this long running experiment. I always have 1318 in the yeast fridge, so why not? Cheers!

I definitely recommend just playing around with 1318 until you get your process right. Preventing oxidation and dealing with a ton of trub were two things I became more conscious of

 

[Turfgrass]

Sorry if it has been mentioned already, but what would be an approximate BU/GU ratio be for a hop forward NEIPA style beer? Thx

 

[ThePaleAleIndian]

Sorry if it has been mentioned already, but what would be an approximate BU/GU ratio be for a hop forward NEIPA style beer? Thx

I think the whole concept of BU/IBUs is in question for the NEIPA style. Many say they are 100+ IBUs and don't taste anywhere near that. This has been my experience as well. I have brewed NEIPAs that are 175 Tinseth IBUs that haven't tasted like they are more than 60.

I have been doing a 10 oz hop stand for a 5 gal batch at 1.062-1.075 OG. Maybe a 1 oz 5 min addition. I have been using hops that are in the 12-18% AA range for those additions. I know some do a bittering addition or mid boil as well and have had good results.

 

[Turfgrass]

I use Brewer’s Friend to track the BU/GU ratios and it’s difficult to achieve higher IBU’s without making a bitter beer.

 

[mikeroesoft]

I use Brewer’s Friend to track the BU/GU ratios and it’s difficult to achieve higher IBU’s without making a bitter beer.

You kinda have to play around with it. Depends on a lot of things.....your bittering hop varietal (higher cohumulone hops tend to provide more bitterness), salt additions (Cl:SO4), yeast, grain bill, CO2 extract vs. pellets and a few other things as well. One thing I've also been doing is keeping my boil pH 5.1-5.2 which supposedly reduces hop utilization/isomerization but is supposed to refine the bitterness and I find it to be true. A lot of variables at play. I think keeping track of the BU:GU is important, but it's only one indicator.

 

[ThePaleAleIndian]

You kinda have to play around with it. Depends on a lot of things.....your bittering hop varietal (higher cohumulone hops tend to provide more bitterness), salt additions (Cl:SO4), yeast, grain bill, CO2 extract vs. pellets and a few other things as well. One thing I've also been doing is keeping my boil pH 5.1-5.2 which supposedly reduces hop utilization/isomerization but is supposed to refine the bitterness and I find it to be true. A lot of variables at play. I think keeping track of the BU:GU is important, but it's only one indicator.

Agreed, yeah. Boil pH and water profile are important. I try to keep my mash pH in the 5.1 to 5.3 range for NEIPAs, acidify my sparge water to 5.2 ish and monitor the boil pH. Usually it falls right in line with my mash pH. In addition to extracting more bitterness at high pH, I have found that the hop flavor i extract is quite different at high vs. low boil pH, and I strongly prefer the low pH character for NEIPAs.

Chloride in the water seems to make a big difference as well. A few pages ago someone mentioned something about chloride taking the place of bitter compounds in bitterness receptors? That aligns with my experience. My high sulfate batches have come out more bitter, even with lower hopping rates or calculated IBUs than my high chloride batches.

 

[Sbe2]

@TheHairyHop What temp are u fermenting at with 1318? Just did 64f for primary fermentation and raised to 70 to clean.


What TH beer is everyone going for with the yeast blend(Julius, Dopp, Green)? What hops are ppl using to get to the beers they want to replicate?

 

[thehaze]

64F is way too low to be fermenting 1318... I used it for 2 NEIPAs and plan on use it again, and I only fermented at 68 and higher and it was very estery and soft and pleasent. Lower temperature will inhibit ester production, which is an important part of these beers.

 

[ThePaleAleIndian]

What TH beer is everyone going for with the yeast blend(Julius, Dopp, Green)? What hops are ppl using to get to the beers they want to replicate?

My personal current goal is something like a Doppelganger, that's what I'm going for with the blending experiment.

I kind of used their descriptions as a guide for the hop varieties. I had seen something a while back that said Julius was Citra heavy. Whether that's the case or not, seems like as good a place to start as any. So if Alter Ego is the "base of Julius with a tremendous amount of Mosaic and a kiss of Amarillo" in the dry hop, and Doppelganger is the imperial version of Alter Ego... Well, that's how I designed my dry hop schedule. About 55% Citra, 33% Mosaic and 11% Amarillo. Hop stand was similar.

I think I'm going to give the keg another couple of days to condition. The waiting is KILLING me...

 

[TheHairyHop]

@TheHairyHop What temp are u fermenting at with 1318? Just did 64f for primary fermentation and raised to 70 to clean.


What TH beer is everyone going for with the yeast blend(Julius, Dopp, Green)? What hops are ppl using to get to the beers they want to replicate?

I'm pitching and fermenting around 65 and letting it go free. My ferm chamber didn't make the list of things that I kept after moving so much in the last 2 years. Right now, I'm on a big single hop expedition so to say, and I'm trying to nail the process of fermenting in kegs, close transferring and not having a ton of trub in my serving vessel. Doing that while minimizing oxygen is not so simple. I'll tell you all what, 1318 and Falconer's Flight makes a pleasantly great tasting beer

 

[Sbe2]

64F is way too low to be fermenting 1318... I used it for 2 NEIPAs and plan on use it again, and I only fermented at 68 and higher and it was very estery and soft and pleasent. Lower temperature will inhibit ester production, which is an important part of these beers.

Good to know, I am getting a resiny, operripe apricot, citrusy using Simcoe, Amarillo, mosaic. The resiny is prolly the Simcoe and Mosaic. Citrus is prolly Amarillo. Not sure if the apricot is from the mosaic or 1318. I will ramp up my temp next time, but with a different combo.

 

[ThePaleAleIndian]

64F is way too low to be fermenting 1318... I used it for 2 NEIPAs and plan on use it again, and I only fermented at 68 and higher and it was very estery and soft and pleasent. Lower temperature will inhibit ester production, which is an important part of these beers.

I've had good results on several batches with 1318 pitching at 60F and ramping up to 68F after the first couple of days. Still made a great ester profile and delicious beer. Just my palate and process talking of course.

No TH style banana-bubblegum and pepper though lol

 

[couchsending]

Good friends with a head brewer who has been using 1318 as his house yeast since 1995, probably longer than anyone here in the states. His brewery has won Alpha King numerous times, IPA, IIPA gold and GABF, brewpub of the year at GABF, and a bunch of other major awards just within the last 3 years. He knows this yeast in and out.

He is an unbelievable brewer and makes just wonderful hoppy beers across multiple styles.

He ferments 1318 at 66 and keeps it there through D-rest, sometimes a ramp to 68 after FG depending on the generation of pitch but not always. He also always mashes anything above 6% at 149 to get FG to 1.012 max. Says that above that it can start to get too sweet (I would agree).

He has also won gold at GABF for his cream ale with 1318. Overpitched and fermented at 58-60.

 

[TheHairyHop]

My personal current goal is something like a Doppelganger, that's what I'm going for with the blending experiment.

I kind of used their descriptions as a guide for the hop varieties. I had seen something a while back that said Julius was Citra heavy. Whether that's the case or not, seems like as good a place to start as any. So if Alter Ego is the "base of Julius with a tremendous amount of Mosaic and a kiss of Amarillo" in the dry hop, and Doppelganger is the imperial version of Alter Ego... Well, that's how I designed my dry hop schedule. About 55% Citra, 33% Mosaic and 11% Amarillo. Hop stand was similar.

I think I'm going to give the keg another couple of days to condition. The waiting is KILLING me...

stop being a good, patient brewer and just let us know already

 

[stonebrewer]

I'll tell you all what, 1318 and Falconer's Flight makes a pleasantly great tasting beer

FF is a nice blend, though I find it changes pretty consistently over time due to it being a blend. It is the only hop used in On the Wings of Armageddon, which is a fantastic IIPA! I have created a few beers with it using WLP007, but think I might give it a go with 1318! Cheers!

 

[Dog House Brew]

I’ve not used 1318. I have a hard time moving away from 007.

 

[stonebrewer]

I’ve not used 1318. I have a hard time moving away from 007.

Completely understand. It was my go to for many years for a lot of beers, especially IPAs. I still use it a lot, but I also use 1318 a lot these days. Following this thread to see if I should try to expand my horizons a little further. Nothing wrong with sticking to a yeast and really getting to know it!

 

[Jmash]

I will definitely go during the week. Is WED or THUR better? I think my bud in the area told me THUR might be better as they have a second set of cans run by then and you might get 3-4 different beers?

Yes Thurs and Fri will definitely get you more selection. Just might be a lot of Bright and Lights On which IMO aint worth the drive. I've also learned from experience that unless you're sharing getting a case of one thing at a time isn't worth it. TH tastes a lot different after a week or two than it does fresh. I think an aged Doppleganger tastes a lot like every Trillium beer.

 

[mrodrigues9]

Just curious what are you guys finishing at for a FG? my last two batches finished dry at around 1.006 how can I increase the FG but not lose the ABV more grain? higher mash temp? longer mash? not sure what to do as the s-04 seems to blast through fermentation before the second dry hops are even in and leaves a dry beer

 

[RevKev]

Noticed the talk of IBUs, I have the capabilites in lab to analyze these. Stupidly simple actually to get accurate results. Using a UV/Vis spectrophotometer targeted at 275nm just a simple liquid liquid extraction and partitioning of the organic layer to be analyzed.

I think I'll be doing this for my upcoming brew I just got a unitank so I'll be fermenting under pressure and naturally carbonating the IPA.

 

[stonebrewer]

Just curious what are you guys finishing at for a FG? my last two batches finished dry at around 1.006 how can I increase the FG but not lose the ABV more grain? higher mash temp? longer mash? not sure what to do as the s-04 seems to blast through fermentation before the second dry hops are even in and leaves a dry beer

Mash at a higher temperature...156 or so.