Isolated Yeast (Tree House): How to Identify and Characterize?

[Jmash]

I rousted the last batch (used 1318) and I won't do it again. I think I got some off flavors from the crusties formed on the sides of the carboy.

 

[melville]

Personally I don’t care what it looks like, it’s rather far down on the list. If it was perfectly clear and had insane aroma, flavor, and mouthfeel then it would be better.

Does Dry Hopping during really active fermentation have a distinctly positive aroma and flavor impact vs. DH with less yeast activity.. say 4 or less points to go... conceptually I would think so many of the oils would be pulled down when the yeast floccs as there is so much yeast in suspension at max activity.

I'm the opposite, I very much care how my/all beers look (all styles), it is half the fun to me.

 

[SanPancho]

Scrubbing is not a fallacy. If it was then how could smell hop aromas in beer? The oils/components volatize and your nose picks them up.

The key is that if you recirc you do it gently and dont create foam or offgassing. Thats when scrubbing happens. Same for carbonating. Its most easily done in a conical/brite with head pressure to keep volatiles in solution.

At homebrew level i think it was too hard not to offgas without the head pressure. Fermenter smelled great, beer not so much. I stopped that pretty quickly. Maybe ill try again next time in a corny so i can do it under head pressure.

 

[LichtS]

Are most pitching the 88/10/2 yeast blend all at the same time or you staggering the yeast pitches?

 

[thunderaxe]

I definitely DH on day 1-2 and think that it works well. Thinking maybe it has more to do with the hops moving in suspension and being able to impart more of their goodies because the surface contact is much greater as they move around in suspension. One thing I am contemplating doing when I get more time (*HAH) is to either put a spin bar in or use a pump to recirculate the keg. Thinking is that a lot of breweries get the hops moving in their setup to get better surface contact and impart more of the goods to the beer. Increases aroma, if not flavor. Anyone doing anything like this now and have results to report?

this brulosophy experiment (inspired by an article linked to in the description) seems to conclude that continuous agitation can extract the same amount of hop flavour in one hour as four days of undisturbed dry-hopping:

http://brulosophy.com/2017/05/15/dr...on-vs-4-days-undisturbed-exbeeriment-results/

 

[ThePaleAleIndian]

Are most pitching the 88/10/2 yeast blend all at the same time or you staggering the yeast pitches?

Most seem to be doing the co-pitch thing, although I know some people have tried staggering.

I have been thinking about pitching a small amount of the WB-06 first at 72F or so on my next attempt, then cooling to 66F or so and pitching the other two strains. The logic behind this would be that it would give the WB-06 some time to make the banana/bubblegum esters without clove at the warm temps, then cool off to let the T-58 make some background spice and keep the S-04 from making things too tart. Considering this because I feel like my attempts have totally lacked the banana/bubblegum thing. I'm trying to come up with a way to let the WB-06 make esters without clove phenols, but also keep the tartness from the S-04 and the fusels from the T-58 down, which apparently are both increased at the warmer temps.

 

[Jwin]

I'm still in the belief that multiple fermentations are at play here.
Kimmich blends 6 tanks for Heady.
Yes, that may be for consistency. But, hearing the guy talk about his process, I doubt he has any consistency issues. As Conan is so pitch rate and temp specific, I'm sure he is toying with it some.

 

[ThePaleAleIndian]

I'm still in the belief that multiple fermentations are at play here.
Kimmich blends 6 tanks for Heady.
Yes, that may be for consistency. But, hearing the guy talk about his process, I doubt he has any consistency issues. As Conan is so pitch rate and temp specific, I'm sure he is toying with it some.

Yeah, this is something that is in the back of my mind all the time as well with this yeast trio. I wish it wasn't such a PITA to try it on my system. Kind of forces me to exhaust my options with co-pitch at different temps and staggered pitches first. But if I'm satisfied that those things aren't producing the results that I want then I will be quitting my whining and trying some combination of separate blended fermentations.

 

[Jwin]

Might be fun for someone with more free time than me to do some Mason jar ferments, carb with a carb cap and just blend in the glass
Does anyone know the size of THs FVs and bright tanks? Could be semi telling it brights are 2-3x the FV

 

[ThePaleAleIndian]

@melville, how is your batch with the 15% T-58 coming along? Are you getting any of that background spice? How about the banana/bubblegum thing?

I'm brewing my next attempt next week and I'm thinking about whether I want to stay the co-pitch course and increase the T-58, or if I want to stagger the pitches.

 

[JohnConnor]

Those of you using KCl, where did you buy it from/what brand? I want to give it a whirl in my next brew.

 

[melville]

@melville, how is your batch with the 15% T-58 coming along? Are you getting any of that background spice? How about the banana/bubblegum thing?

I'm brewing my next attempt next week and I'm thinking about whether I want to stay the co-pitch course and increase the T-58, or if I want to stagger the pitches.

I took a small taste this morning, but wasn't really focused on anything beyond hop saturation and sweetness level. At this stage I don't think I can really separate the hop spice from anything else. In a week, I might have a better sense (only been in a keg since Tues.) I'm likely brewing this weekend and plan on using 15% again.

 

[Korx]

I just figured I would leave this here. The most interesting part is the note about natural carbonation in the fermenter to me.

 

[Sawhorse-Josh]

Damn, I was just there wed. I can't go again, can I?

BTW, I have 5G on day 6 of fermentation going right now. I used 1 vial of 'London Fog' along with 3g each of T-58 and WB-06. Simcoe and Citra. Smelling and looking good. It was at 1.017 this morning (thanks Tilt Hydrometer!) and I'll do have the dry hop tonight (loose probably although I worry about losing a lot of the aroma as the hops sit on top) and then the other half in the keg on monday.

My last batch was 11.5g of S-04 with 1.5g each of T58 and WB06. It was my best beer ever. (also it was my 10th batch ever.)

Have a nice weekend. Cheers!

PS. I live in MA about an hr from TH and my local water has ~150ppm Na and ~285 ppm Chloride! low sulphate. I add gypsum but my best beer has been when I don't dilute with RO . small sample size so far though and I haven't locked in a 'process' yet.

 

[ThePaleAleIndian]

Those of you using KCl, where did you buy it from/what brand? I want to give it a whirl in my next brew.

I use the NOW! brand. Bought it from Amazon, although it seems like that's not the best price for it out there.

 

[ThePaleAleIndian]

@marshallb, heeeey you're back! Love your website and the work you've done on this yeast blend and recipe! I have a question for you, thought I would ask it here real quick. What made you go from your staggered yeast additions to a simplified co-pitch? Just wondering, as I am considering staggering after my first couple of attempts were co-pitches. Do you feel like you get the same ester/subtle phenolic character with the co-pitch vs. staggered?

 

[couchsending]

With Nate from Bissell confirming they use 1272 for their beers and how they can't get it to clear if they dry hop during fermentation, even with biofine.. Makes me think Bright could use this yeast and if they are using dry for all beers at TH, BRY-97 is the dry equivalent of 1272.

 

[melville]

With Nate from Bissell confirming they use 1272 for their beers and how they can't get it to clear if they dry hop during fermentation, even with biofine.. Makes me think Bright could use this yeast and if they are using dry for all beers at TH, BRY-97 is the dry equivalent of 1272.

Bright strikes me as not particularly hazy. That and the description as a "clean American ale yeast" always implied S-05 to me.

 

[TheHairyHop]

I assumed that as well

 

[ThePaleAleIndian]

Bright strikes me as not particularly hazy. That and the description as a "clean American ale yeast" always implied S-05 to me.

+1

 

[couchsending]

Hmmm.. haven’t had a Bright since last fall but I remember if being far from clear, which is generally the case with 001 if you use kettle finings. It’ll go pretty clear eventually.... I would say compared to their house “yeast character” 1272 would be perceived as “clean” even at high temps... I would guess below 68 its not that estery but I haven’t used it.... yet

 

[Sawhorse-Josh]

Hmmm.. haven’t had a Bright since last fall but I remember if being far from clear, which is generally the case with 001 if you use kettle finings. It’ll go pretty clear eventually.... I would say compared to their house “yeast character” 1272 would be perceived as “clean” even at high temps... I would guess below 68 its not that estery but I haven’t used it.... yet

I have a bunch of fresh Bright at home. Had one last night. It poured CRYSTAL clear until... I emptied the can. Whatever had settled caused a permanent (for the rest of the glass at least) haze. Not as murky or thick as Haze/Julius/Green and their variants.

IN THE NAME OF SCIENCE, I will have another Bright tonight and take pictures.

 

[couchsending]

I have a bunch of fresh Bright at home. Had one last night. It poured CRYSTAL clear until... I emptied the can. Whatever had settled caused a permanent (for the rest of the glass at least) haze. Not as murky or thick as Haze/Julius/Green and their variants.

IN THE NAME OF SCIENCE, I will have another Bright tonight and take pictures.

When was it brewed? Only ones I had lasted maybe a week after I grabbed them at the old brewery. If they dropping clear then US-05 it probably is...

 

[mrodrigues9]

I have a bunch of fresh Bright at home. Had one last night. It poured CRYSTAL clear until... I emptied the can. Whatever had settled caused a permanent (for the rest of the glass at least) haze. Not as murky or thick as Haze/Julius/Green and their variants.

IN THE NAME OF SCIENCE, I will have another Bright tonight and take pictures.

The lack of haze (or settling of haze) in bright especially bright that has been cold for a few weeks would definitely point to the S-05 being the cause, they could also be dry hopping later in fermentation. I have attached below my last two recipes both are the exact same hops, grain %s, and yeast one has much more haze than the other only difference between the 2 is in the clearer beer I missed high krausen by about 12-24 hours

I think I've nailed down my recipe though and may try using the S-04, WB06 and T58 mix at 88|10|2, how many G or the mix go into a 5 gallon batch? and is the consensus to add them all together?

 

[Sawhorse-Josh]

When was it brewed? Only ones I had lasted maybe a week after I grabbed them at the old brewery. If they dropping clear then US-05 it probably is...

Bought it last week on Wed, 1/10/18. not sure when it was packaged but most likely earlier that week. I'll post pictures of bottom of can, half pour and full pour. we'll see if this can is similar to last or if maybe the last one just was extra yeasty.

 

[mrodrigues9]

Bought it last week on Wed, 1/10/18. not sure when it was packaged but most likely earlier that week. I'll post pictures of bottom of can, half pour and full pour. we'll see if this can is similar to last or if maybe the last one just was extra yeasty.

Usually with bright I find that this is the case 3/4 of the can pours clear and the haze sits on the bottom I've tried them both ways and the taste is identical usually now I just give my bright a quick roll before drinking. But it would be interesting to see how Nate intended bright to be drank hazy or clear

 

[Oldskewl]

1272 will drop clear within a month in the keg. I use Bells yeast which is supposed to be 1272 in my NEIPA occaisionally and on my 2 hearted clone. Hazy at first but drops clear much, much sooner than 1318.

 

[Sawhorse-Josh]

As promised (for SCIENCE!)

 

[ThePaleAleIndian]

I think I've nailed down my recipe though and may try using the S-04, WB06 and T58 mix at 88|10|2, how many G or the mix go into a 5 gallon batch? and is the consensus to add them all together?

I've been using 13-16 g in a 5 gal batch. I think you could probably get away with less, but that 13 g neighborhood was convenient for me because a package of one of these yeasts is 11.5 g. One of my attempts was a 1.062 and the other was 1.072. I upped my pitch rate by a couple grams for the higher gravity one, but that probably wasn't necessary.

Seems like most people have been pitching together. I am seriously considering two separate fermentations for my next attempt - one small one, warm pitch/ferment with just WB-06, and the other the balance of a 5 gal batch with S-04 and T-58, fermented cool. Then blend at kegging.

 

[Sawhorse-Josh]

I've been using 13-16 g in a 5 gal batch. I think you could probably get away with less, but that 13 g neighborhood was convenient for me because a package of one of these yeasts is 11.5 g. One of my attempts was a 1.062 and the other was 1.072. I upped my pitch rate by a couple grams for the higher gravity one, but that probably wasn't necessary.

Seems like most people have been pitching together. I am seriously considering two separate fermentations for my next attempt - one small one, warm pitch/ferment with just WB-06, and the other the balance of a 5 gal batch with S-04 and T-58, fermented cool. Then blend at kegging.

I did a batch with 11.5g+1.5+1.5 and really liked the results. 5 gallons.

 

[ThePaleAleIndian]

I did a batch with 11.5g+1.5+1.5 and really liked the results. 5 gallons.

Did you get a bunch of clove with the WB-06 that high? I did approximately 11.5+1+1 on my first 5 gal attempt and ended up with a lot of clove character. Dropped the WB-06 to 0.5 g on the next attempt and it went away, but i also didn't get any banana/bubblegum like I do from the core TH IPAs.

What were your other parameters? Mash temp/pH, pitch/ferment temp, OG, attenuation?

 

[Sawhorse-Josh]

Did you get a bunch of clove with the WB-06 that high? I did approximately 11.5+1+1 on my first 5 gal attempt and ended up with a lot of clove character. Dropped the WB-06 to 0.5 g on the next attempt and it went away, but i also didn't get any banana/bubblegum like I do from the core TH IPAs.

What were your other parameters? Mash temp/pH, pitch/ferment temp, OG, attenuation?

I did not detect any clove at all but then again I have a horrible nose for that sort of thing. It certainly didn't say 'belgian' or 'wheat beer' to me though. It was fruity/tropical. Certainly not TH or trillium quality but better than many beers I've paid for!

Mash temp - 155 for 60m
Mash pH - ~5.2 (acid malt used)
Pitch - ~75
Ferment - 7 days starting at 66 degrees and ending at 72. (i use an immersion pro for temp control)
Dry hopped (loose in fermenter) around 48hrs which was about 1.024
OG was 1.073, FG was 1.016 for about 7.5% abv. ~78% attenuation I believe.

I rehydrated all the yeasts together in some 95degree water and the slurry was about 75-80 when I pitched it into the 75 wort. I added yeast nutrient to the boil.

I forced carbed at 45-50 degrees (my cold basement when it was about 5F outside) using a carb stone at 12psi. drank well at 8 days and was great at 3wks.

Only thing of note I think was that the boil was VERY aggressive. I boiled off almost 2 gallons in 1 hour and overshot my target of 1.071

My malt bill was 80% golden promise with 2lbs of wheat malt and 1lb of victory (and 4oz of acid malt). No sugar in this batch.

I didn't use whirlfloc but I will going forward. This one was 'murky' for the first ~2 wks. Looks better now. I'll take a fresh pic tonight.


Cheers.

 

[Sawhorse-Josh]

Um, I named that middle picture "mine with Lights on" but that might not be lights on in the middle. too much sediment in the bottom of the glass. must have been one of mine. I did a Rakau single hop that was...weird. Used Farmhouse's "ne ipa blend" from omega labs. That's probably what that was.

 

[NJGeorge]

I've been using 13-16 g in a 5 gal batch. I think you could probably get away with less, but that 13 g neighborhood was convenient for me because a package of one of these yeasts is 11.5 g. One of my attempts was a 1.062 and the other was 1.072. I upped my pitch rate by a couple grams for the higher gravity one, but that probably wasn't necessary.

Seems like most people have been pitching together. I am seriously considering two separate fermentations for my next attempt - one small one, warm pitch/ferment with just WB-06, and the other the balance of a 5 gal batch with S-04 and T-58, fermented cool. Then blend at kegging.

I might try the separate fermentation as well. My question is, how much wort to use for the wb-06? I’m doing 2.5 gal batches. Also, does that get hopped/dry hopped or does the main fermentation just get the hops?

 

[ThePaleAleIndian]

I might try the separate fermentation as well. My question is, how much wort to use for the wb-06? I’m doing 2.5 gal batches. Also, does that get hopped/dry hopped or does the main fermentation just get the hops?

So I am biting the bullet and doing this. I brewed a 3-ish quart batch yesterday and am brewing the main batch today.

I can tell you what I'm doing, not saying it's the right thing to do, but it's what I settled on. I tried to somewhat match the grist I want for the bigger batch, except for the carafoam. So about 3% C10 and 4% acidulated with the rest being pils (I will post the full recipe when I've brewed the whole thing). I want to make the small batch a banana-bubblegum bomb, so I pulled every trick out of the bag. High gravity, underpitch, no aeration/oxygenation, pitch and ferment warm, high simple sugar in the wort (low mash temp), malt with the least modification available to me (Weyermann pils).

In that 3-3.5 quart batch, I pitched 0.35 g WB-06. Single hop addition of 2 oz Citra at flameout for a 10 min stand. I have no plans to dry hop the small batch, but i am still considering it. Pitched about 23 hours ago and it's going gangbusters already. Smells super duper bubblegummy out the airlock.

Edit: I should mention this is for a 5 gal total batch.

 

[TheHairyHop]

So I am biting the bullet and doing this. I brewed a 3-ish quart batch yesterday and am brewing the main batch today.

I can tell you what I'm doing, not saying it's the right thing to do, but it's what I settled on. I tried to somewhat match the grist I want for the bigger batch, except for the carafoam. So about 3% C10 and 4% acidulated with the rest being pils (I will post the full recipe when I've brewed the whole thing). I want to make the small batch a banana-bubblegum bomb, so I pulled every trick out of the bag. High gravity, underpitch, pitch and ferment warm, high simple sugar in the wort (low mash temp), malt with the least modification available to me (Weyermann pils).

In that 3-3.5 quart batch, I pitched 0.35 g WB-06. Single hop addition of 2 oz Citra at flameout for a 10 min stand. I have no plans to dry hop the small batch, but i am still considering it. Pitched about 23 hours ago and it's going gangbusters already. Smells super duper bubblegummy out the airlock.

Edit: I should mention this is for a 5 gal total batch.

sweet. I've been meaning to do this, but I'm on my single hop kick right now, and adding new methodology is just a distraction at this point. so you're only doing WB-06 in the small batch and S-04 and T-58 in the larger one?

 

[ThePaleAleIndian]

so you're only doing WB-06 in the small batch and S-04 and T-58 in the larger one?

Yeah, exactly. I want to skew this batch towards the ester profile of the WB-06, since I feel like that's the ester profile I perceive the most in TH core beers. But I feel like the background spice I get in TH beers is more saison-y, i.e. T-58, which kind of led me to want to ferment the T-58 at the same temp as I would do a 100% S-04 beer, that low 60s zone. So I figured instead of doing 3 fermenters, just co-pitch the T-58 and S-04. What I'm really curious about is if the T-58 behaves any differently in t he presence of competing S-04. Some time down the line I'd like to bite the bullet again and do 3 separate fermentations to compare.

I am decocting up to mash out on the S-04/T-58 wort right now!

 

[melville]

Before I forget, a few pages back we noted TH was probably brewing a batch of Bright and according to the known 18-21 day timeframe, that beer should have dropped this Wednesday.

Wednesday cans included Bright w/ Citra.

No big deal, just wanted to offer closure on that.

 

[NJGeorge]

So I am biting the bullet and doing this. I brewed a 3-ish quart batch yesterday and am brewing the main batch today.

I can tell you what I'm doing, not saying it's the right thing to do, but it's what I settled on. I tried to somewhat match the grist I want for the bigger batch, except for the carafoam. So about 3% C10 and 4% acidulated with the rest being pils (I will post the full recipe when I've brewed the whole thing). I want to make the small batch a banana-bubblegum bomb, so I pulled every trick out of the bag. High gravity, underpitch, pitch and ferment warm, high simple sugar in the wort (low mash temp), malt with the least modification available to me (Weyermann pils).

In that 3-3.5 quart batch, I pitched 0.35 g WB-06. Single hop addition of 2 oz Citra at flameout for a 10 min stand. I have no plans to dry hop the small batch, but i am still considering it. Pitched about 23 hours ago and it's going gangbusters already. Smells super duper bubblegummy out the airlock.

Edit: I should mention this is for a 5 gal total batch.

Now we have to figure out the best way to move the beer from each fermenter without having air in the line (I suppose purging the line with co2 when moving to the next carboy.) Any ideas?

 

[ThePaleAleIndian]

Now we have to figure out the best way to move the beer from each fermenter without having air in the line (I suppose purging the line with co2 when moving to the next carboy.) Any ideas?

I usually purge my lines at kegging anyway, although the little bit of my racking cane that is out of the liquid has some O2 in it I'm sure. Not sure what I can do about that, except purge the headspace in the keg and carb up naturally. Going to do that with this blended batch, carb up naturally with CBC-1 while throwing some keg hops at it. I recently set up a stainless mesh keg hop filter to go around my dip tube, so I should be able to keg hop loose to boot, make sure I don't lose that hop saturation.