Isolated Yeast (Tree House): How to Identify and Characterize?

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My two (unasked for) cents would be that there is more than one way to skin a cat. Lone Pine brewery in Portland ME makes a better mosaic neipa than Tree House, imo of course, and they certainly don't use the same yeast approach. Although we could uncork the yeast secret, we could still miss the mark as far as process goes
 
melville said:
View attachment 408259

Julius.

Probably no mosaic or very little.
A lot of things about this tastes familiar.
There's been a slight head on this all the way down
Small bubbles
Not a HUGE aroma
But a lot of flavor
If there's biscuit, it's vanilla biscuit
Not super columbusy (more citra dank than earth dank)
More sweet than dry
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Is that the real deal or yours? I was always under the impression Julius was Citra/Amarillo with maybe some Columbus or Simcoe in the mix too...
 
isomerization said:
Is that the real deal or yours? I was always under the impression Julius was Citra/Amarillo with maybe some Columbus or Simcoe in the mix too...
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Real deal. Also had a Green. Sweet finish. Definitely something in the finish that more than himts at what I assume is WB-06. Mouthfeel seems to largely hint on carbonation which at least on tap, is on the lighter side, really fine.

Bags of weyermann Munich II and carafoam liberally stocked.

Edit: Think I can make out Vienna malt too from weyermann.
 
melville said:
Real deal. Also had a Green. Sweet finish. Definitely something in the finish that more than himts at what I assume is WB-06. Mouthfeel seems to largely hint on carbonation which at least on tap, is on the lighter side, really fine.

Bags of weyermann Munich II and carafoam liberally stocked.

Edit: Think I can make out Vienna malt too from weyermann.
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The carafoam makes sense, but the dark Munich, could they be using that for color and/or breadiness? Also, what about using just Vienna as the base malt?
 
isomerization said:
The carafoam makes sense, but the dark Munich, could they be using that for color and/or breadiness? Also, what about using just Vienna as the base malt?
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Every malt visible was Weyermann.
The closest visible racks held Munich II in big totes. Then carafoam in totes. Further away, back by the cans was Weyermann Vienna sacks. There's considerably more behind that, but you can't see it, but it still looked like Weyermann brand malts.

I still think they use Rahr 2-row/Pale and carafoam/crystal (the malts I saw are on the opposite side of the brewery from where they mash, I'm sure there's more storage elsewhere), in most of their beers spiced with some combo of specialty malts.

SRM of Julius and Green (slightly lighter to my eye than Julius) doesn't allow for much Munich but both seemed slightly more complicated than just 2-row.

Didn't get bubblegum in either beer. Really tried to find it. But I do get that weird thing in the finish that I mentioned before, it was definitely there in both beers.

When I got home, took another taste of my (still carbing) beer. Similar finishing yeast taste and the bubbles.... Very interesting.

BSG on Munich II:
"It produces robust malt characteristics, including full body, deep amber color, and smooth mouthfeel. The flavor is strongly malty and the rich aroma has notes of caramel, honey, and bread."
https://bsgcraftbrewing.com/weyermann-munich-dk-type2-25kg

BSG on Vienna:
"It produces full-bodied beers with golden color and smooth mouthfeel. The flavor is malty-sweet with gentle notes of honey, almond, and hazelnut"
https://bsgcraftbrewing.com/weyermann-vienna-25-kg
 
Brewing tomorrow and the plan is to try fermenting with only WB-06 and S-04 as many have said T58 had more of a spicy character. I know there have been a few batches made already but I am wondering if WB-06 for 48 hours first would be best or just co-pitch all at once. Personally, I was thinking of going with the staggered approach but any input from those who have already tried one of these strategies would help. Also, has anyone tried a batch without flaked adjuncts to see if it clears with these strains? I'm going to attempt my batch without them but I think I am changing too many variables at once from my usual NEIPAs. Very un-scientist like of me...
 
Split a 5g batch into two separate 3gallon kegs on Friday AM. Half was kegged with super hopped wort and .6g CBC-1 as well as .6g of T-58. 2nd keg I added dextrose, same combo of yeast, but this one has dry hops (contained) in the keg. I wasn't overly excited about the beer I made with S-04 so I switched to 002 for this batch. No alternate yeasts during primary. Interested to see if the T-58 adds anything? The last batch I split between natural carb with CBC-1 and force carbing was considerably different. Naturally carbonated batch was much smoother, more rounded and had a distinct melon note that the force carbed beer did not.


Read something interesting in Noonan's "Brewing Lager Beer" in regards to krausening.. "Introduction of 10-15% new beer at bottling produces a smoother beer with finer bubbles than other means of carbonation. It more completely bonds carbonic gas to the beer so that carbonationis less apparent. This is the only means by which a truly smooth beer can be brewed".
 
My neipa with a 93/7 ratio of 04 to 58 is not what I was looking for. It's very dry and not at all thick and creamy like the same recipe but with 1318. The one other difference is that I used comet in this recipe
 
TheHairyHop said:
My neipa with a 93/7 ratio of 04 to 58 is not what I was looking for. It's very dry and not at all thick and creamy like the same recipe but with 1318. The one other difference is that I used comet in this recipe
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Mash and fermentation temp? Seems to be a common issue with most everyone's batches, finishing too low. Although some of the others sounded like they had at least a finished product in the right direction.

couchsending said:
Split a 5g batch into two separate 3gallon kegs on Friday AM. Half was kegged with super hopped wort and .6g CBC-1 as well as .6g of T-58. 2nd keg I added dextrose, same combo of yeast, but this one has dry hops (contained) in the keg. I wasn't overly excited about the beer I made with S-04 so I switched to 002 for this batch. No alternate yeasts during primary. Interested to see if the T-58 adds anything? The last batch I split between natural carb with CBC-1 and force carbing was considerably different. Naturally carbonated batch was much smoother, more rounded and had a distinct melon note that the force carbed beer did not.


Read something interesting in Noonan's "Brewing Lager Beer" in regards to krausening.. "Introduction of 10-15% new beer at bottling produces a smoother beer with finer bubbles than other means of carbonation. It more completely bonds carbonic gas to the beer so that carbonationis less apparent. This is the only means by which a truly smooth beer can be brewed".
Click to expand...

Im excited to try the CBC-1 conditioning approach as well, trying to figure out an easy way to not have to add dextrose though.

drelickj said:
Brewing tomorrow and the plan is to try fermenting with only WB-06 and S-04 as many have said T58 had more of a spicy character. I know there have been a few batches made already but I am wondering if WB-06 for 48 hours first would be best or just co-pitch all at once. Personally, I was thinking of going with the staggered approach but any input from those who have already tried one of these strategies would help. Also, has anyone tried a batch without flaked adjuncts to see if it clears with these strains? I'm going to attempt my batch without them but I think I am changing too many variables at once from my usual NEIPAs. Very un-scientist like of me...
Click to expand...

If you're wanting to try the staggered approach, I'd do it. I think the only other person who's tried it here is marshallb, so the more data the better. I haven't used T-58 yet, but my impression from others descriptions remind some more of a wit yeast than a standard Belgian strain. For your recipe I'd try to keep it as close to something you've done before so you have a benchmark of sorts, if possible.
 
TheHairyHop said:
My neipa with a 93/7 ratio of 04 to 58 is not what I was looking for. It's very dry and not at all thick and creamy like the same recipe but with 1318. The one other difference is that I used comet in this recipe
Click to expand...

Same result here.. dry and no body or creamy mouth feel. I did the staggered approach like marshall did with the same yeast ratios. That can't be it, or maybe its much more simple than we think. Try the Treehouse IPA recipe Nate provided a while back. I used Conan for it, and I swear it was the closest taste to a Treehouse beer I've had so far homebrew wise.

BTW, tried a pour of my NEIPA with 1318 and wow so much better.
 
I've tried twice now with 15% and 10% t58 on solid recipes that I've brewed several times over the last couple years with 1318 or Conan and the t58 beers are not even close to hitting the NE IPA mark. Super dry, no mouthfeel, weird "spicy" yeast finish. This yeast has to be a conditioning strain they are using...pretty obvious since it was even in double shot, a clean beer with zero yeast character. I'm curious if t58 shows up in all their beers including bright.
 
isomerization said:
Mash and fermentation temp? Seems to be a common issue with most everyone's batches, finishing too low. Although some of the others sounded like they had at least a finished product in the right direction.



Im excited to try the CBC-1 conditioning approach as well, trying to figure out an easy way to not have to add dextrose though.



If you're wanting to try the staggered approach, I'd do it. I think the only other person who's tried it here is marshallb, so the more data the better. I haven't used T-58 yet, but my impression from others descriptions remind some more of a wit yeast than a standard Belgian strain. For your recipe I'd try to keep it as close to something you've done before so you have a benchmark of sorts, if possible.
Click to expand...

mashed at 156 dropping to 150 over the course of an hour. fermentation at ambient low to high 70s.

my current hunch is still on a good amount of (maybe hopped) speisse with CBC to bring back mouthfeel lost to these dry strains. I may clock out on this venture though, because it's too much hops to lose to experimentation. If I continue, it'll be with something very cheap for purely analysis purposes
 
savylemons said:
I've tried twice now with 15% and 10% t58 on solid recipes that I've brewed several times over the last couple years with 1318 or Conan and the t58 beers are not even close to hitting the NE IPA mark. Super dry, no mouthfeel, weird "spicy" yeast finish. This yeast has to be a conditioning strain they are using...pretty obvious since it was even in double shot, a clean beer with zero yeast character. I'm curious if t58 shows up in all their beers including bright.
Click to expand...

I don't see how they could condition with T-58 in the presence of CBC, as well as considering the stability of the product. It would keep munching and create can/bottle bombs
 
TheHairyHop said:
mashed at 156 dropping to 150 over the course of an hour. fermentation at ambient low to high 70s.

my current hunch is still on a good amount of (maybe hopped) speisse with CBC to bring back mouthfeel lost to these dry strains. I may clock out on this venture though, because it's too much hops to lose to experimentation. If I continue, it'll be with something very cheap for purely analysis purposes
Click to expand...

Yeah, I totally get that and I feel the same way, if I can't make a better NE IPA than what I already do with 1318, then its not worth it. I do think that naturally carboning with the 2nd dry hop in the keg will bring a lot to the table. And there's no reason CBC-1 can't be used with 1318 as well.

savylemons said:
I've tried twice now with 15% and 10% t58 on solid recipes that I've brewed several times over the last couple years with 1318 or Conan and the t58 beers are not even close to hitting the NE IPA mark. Super dry, no mouthfeel, weird "spicy" yeast finish. This yeast has to be a conditioning strain they are using...pretty obvious since it was even in double shot, a clean beer with zero yeast character. I'm curious if t58 shows up in all their beers including bright.
Click to expand...

Just FYI, I don't think that T-58 is in Double Shot. That DNA fingerprint pattern looked different, but I also only evaluated a single colony.
 
isomerization said:
Yeah, I totally get that and I feel the same way, if I can't make a better NE IPA than what I already do with 1318, then its not worth it. I do think that naturally carboning with the 2nd dry hop in the keg will bring a lot to the table. And there's no reason CBC-1 can't be used with 1318 as well.



Just FYI, I don't think that T-58 is in Double Shot. That DNA fingerprint pattern looked different, but I also only evaluated a single colony.
Click to expand...

Good to know...thought I read that here.

My second attempt I did dry hops in the keg with cbc-1 and priming sugar. Smelled and was tasting great, really "teeehouse-y" going into the keg (minus a hint of that t58 spice) but once carbonated that one was even more phenolic than the force carbed version that had a higher ratio of t58. So much so that it completely masked the dry hops and anything else going on in the beer. Not really pleasant to drink at all.
 
Has anyone tried a process similar to this?

1. Ferment beer to completion (with a S-04/T-58/WB-06 combo of some kind) including dry hopping 1.5-2 weeks
2. Transfer to intermediary vessel (keg preferred), Krausen the green beer and cap to carbonate 0.5-1 week
3. Cold crash / condition 0.5 week
4. Transfer to serving keg with CBC-1 to protect against oxidation and possibly keg hops

Reading around there are many inherent benefits to krausening a beer that leads me to believe it would make sense at Tree House: speeds up maturation of green beer, increased hop presence, maximize beer output and FV capacity, possibly smoother mouth feel and bitterness.
 
More info on malt attached from Nate on Twitter.

Screenshot_20170725-110944.jpg
 
I'm not sure I understand step 4. At that point, the beer is cold so just adding yeast, without any food to boot, wouldn't really do anything - it would just go dormant. I think if anything along the lines of what you are saying, they would be adding CBC-1 when they add the beer for krausening.

A time line on here as stated they do some conditioning time at 60 F after primary. My guess is they do something like:

1 - Primary with S-04, WB and possibly T58. Dry hop with a 2-3 plato remaining in beer.
2 - After Primary fermentation subsides, they crash to 60 F to promote flocculation. Possibly dry hop a second time.
3 - Drop yeast/hops and either transfer to another tank or dose current FV with CBC-1 (and possibly T58 since both are low attenuators and wouldn't dry the beer out further) and add a simple sugar extract to reach desired carbonation levels. This would also scourge any O2 picked up in the transfer or the second dry hop.
4 - Cold crash. Do a final drop of yeast/hops/trub and package.
 
phishie said:
More info on malt attached from Nate on Twitter.
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Welp. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
(So you're saying it's Vienna then?)

More Munich than carafoam from what I could see there. I suppose it could be for Old Man.
 
That also makes sense, only concern is possible oxidation in step 2 when dry hopping again.
 
melville said:
Welp. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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They didn't say Munich II though! I swear this guy just says nope to everything asked. Has anyone tried to compile a grid with what possible ingredients are even left to use? Lol.

phishie said:
Has anyone tried a process similar to this?

1. Ferment beer to completion (with a S-04/T-58/WB-06 combo of some kind) including dry hopping 1.5-2 weeks
2. Transfer to intermediary vessel (keg preferred), Krausen the green beer and cap to carbonate 0.5-1 week
3. Cold crash / condition 0.5 week
4. Transfer to serving keg with CBC-1 to protect against oxidation and possibly keg hops

Reading around there are many inherent benefits to krausening a beer that leads me to believe it would make sense at Tree House: speeds up maturation of green beer, increased hop presence, maximize beer output and FV capacity, possibly smoother mouth feel and bitterness.
Click to expand...

I have been reading up on the "krausen" technique (FYI this thread has helped me appreciate so many cool new approaches). How does this approach sound:

1.) Perform step 1 (probably done after 5-7 days, including the active ferm dry hop step)
2.) Create the krausen (if its highly hopped wort (mini-whirlpool?), is it then called speise?) with CBC-1 (this yeast would prevent the primary yeasts from touching the new wort).
3.) Keg primary batch, add krausen once ferm starts and 2nd dry hop to keg and cap.

I found this calculator online: Quarts of wort = (12 x Gallons of beer)/((SG of wort - 1.0) x 1000)

With an easy example of 5 gallons of beer needs 1 quart of 1.060 wort. The goal is to raise the gravity of the whole batch 3 points.
 
isomerization said:
They didn't say Munich II though! I swear this guy just says nope to everything asked. Has anyone tried to compile a grid with what possible ingredients are even left to use? Lol.
Click to expand...


I find the no's pretty helpful actually. A few tweets before when asked about how to create haze he said 2-row and carafoam, which does fit known ingredients and seems to be the case for me in this last effort (and previous efforts with 1318).

Painfully most of their IPA descriptions do not go into malt characteristics. Old Man singles out flavors evoking caramel malts, brown sugar, and hazlenut — hazelnut is specifically mentioned in Weyermann's Vienna description.

If you aren't specifically interested in cloning Julius (or even if you are) — I think it's best to start simple — we know they do that for many beers. Later add what you need for taste.

I can't say I could pick out any real malt characteristic myself when I tried Julius and Green this weekend. What stood out was massive hop saturation, getting a ton of hop flavor on the hot side while keeping the bitterness balanced, that's more of interest for me right now than any (likely) small amount of specialty malt in any beer.

That said, Julius has an orange tone to me, Green a gold tone. (prior to that tweet I'd have guessed a tiny amount of Munich II in Julius and maybe Vienna in Green purely based on what malts we know they use, not because I picked up either malt in either beer.) Both had a level of opacity and slight milkyness that suggests to me more than what can be achieve with just 5% of carafoam, though neither are as murky as competing examples of the style.

Balancing Rahr's 2-row and their Pale Malt (which is a different color), carafoam amount, and light vs medium crystal, might just explain most of the visual differences.

What was the same in both: smooth. little bubbles. silky. saturated. sweet-ish. balance (no single ingredient standing out), and a "this isn't your father's IPA yeast" finish that I think some of us (in this thread) would recognize.

Edit: It goes without saying that what also stands out is that they're damned delicious.
 
okx06g.jpg


This picture is from Nate 5 years ago now. I know the yeast starters could be for anything but it's interesting to see the starters in the context of the dried yeast conversation.
 
Speise is wort prior to pitching:

Speise is wort taken from the main batch of beer before yeast is pitched and used for priming later. This method of priming is sometimes incorrectly called krausening where fermenting wort is taken from the main batch of beer after yeast is pitched. Using speise is a great alternative to krausening because one doesn't have to brew one batch of beer and bottle a different batch the same day. It is best for German beers because it doesn't require the addition of corn sugar and conforms to the Reinheitsgebot.
Click to expand...

http://brewwiki.com/index.php/Speise
 
savylemons said:
okx06g.jpg


This picture is from Nate 5 years ago now. I know the yeast starters could be for anything but it's interesting to see the starters in the context of the dried yeast conversation.
Click to expand...

He also has stated that there has been a continuous evolution of the recipes and I'm sure the biochemistry behind the beers. Would not doubt him switching to dry to get a reproducible product
 
savylemons said:
okx06g.jpg


This picture is from Nate 5 years ago now. I know the yeast starters could be for anything but it's interesting to see the starters in the context of the dried yeast conversation.
Click to expand...

Are those two kegs converted to fermenters?
 
RevKev said:
He also has stated that there has been a continuous evolution of the recipes and I'm sure the biochemistry behind the beers. Would not doubt him switching to dry to get a reproducible product
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Completely agree. Wasn't stating that the starters implied anything...just found it interesting. They could be liquid starters, dry yeast starters (didn't think that was a thing,) the speise, etc... The subsequent picture posted next to that rig was a carboy clearly labeled as green, so at some point there was something going on involving multiple starters :)
 
savylemons said:
This picture is from Nate 5 years ago now. I know the yeast starters could be for anything but it's interesting to see the starters in the context of the dried yeast conversation.
Click to expand...

what's his instagram handle?
 
S-04, 1098, 007 are all the same yeast right? He probably just started with the liquid form and who knows maybe they still use it or maybe have switched over to S-04 for ease of use? If multiple strains are at play in primary they can't pull from one tank to another so maintaining a liquid culture would probably be a PITA?? I think my next batch will be along the lines of what @marshallb did with a small amount of WB-06 to start but then use some 007 instead of S-04, then condition/carbonate with some krausen by making a T-58 CBC-1 starter with wort pulled before primary. Add first dry hop at high krausen (I was skeptical of this but I got a much more "juicy" flavor to my last beer when I did this versus adding the DH charge with only a few points to go) then second dry hop (bagged) in conditioning keg.
 
I don't have the gel images on hand, but I just ran an experiment comparing the ability of S-04 and T-58 to (separately) grow in the presence of CBC-1 (all yeast isolates from TH, not commercial samples).

I tested 8 colonies each from saturated, mixed cultures where an equal amount of saturated slurry was used to incubate YPD media. The S-04 v CBC-1 culture was all CBC-1. The T-58 v CBC-1 culture was 6:2 in favor of CBC-1. Now this isn't what I'd call a rigorous experiment (should test 30+ colonies), but the fact that T-58 colonies showed up at all, raises a question, are there commonly used Sacc strains that are resistant to the toxin made by CBC-1? Probably a question for Fermentis...
 
You're right that the results are not statistically significant, but it's a good experiment and it doesn't mean nothing. That's very interesting and could affect how we look at pitching rates
 
TheHairyHop said:
You're right that the results are not statistically significant, but it's a good experiment and it doesn't mean nothing. That's very interesting and could affect how we look at pitching rates
Click to expand...

I forgot to mention that I was thinking this could imply that T-58 could indeed be used with CBC-1 as a conditioning strain.
 
if taking nothing else from this thread, i guess obtaining some tree house brew should be a goal of mine..

i do have relatives that are 45 min from treehouse, maybe they can ship me some :)
 
isomerization said:
Tasting notes?
Click to expand...


Needs more wb-06. Or T-58. Or both. This is too clean compared to TH. No complaints drinking it though. Carbonation seems on the right track and citra, mosaic and simcoe (some Amarillo too) are always good.
 

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