Isolated Yeast (Tree House): How to Identify and Characterize?

[bierhaus15]

I've made plenty of hoppy beers that finishes between 1.014 and 1.017 with over 100 theoretical IBUs and tons of dry hopping that don't have the mouthfeel I get from Treehouse beers.

What I was getting at is that there is more to soft mouthfeel than glycerol levels. Cheapo brands used to add glycerol to increase mouthfeel and fullness in high adjunct beers; then they did studies and found it was more effective to add HFCS and bump the residual sugar. Glycerol is important, but the levels are so low in most beer that things like FG, water chemistry, and brew process are going to have more of an impact. And I'm sure yeast choice is part of that as well.

 

[melville]

Also, not an ester producer, so if it is used mostly for bubbles, the other three I've got going right now should be the man drivers of flavor, feel, etc. Unless....Mouthfeel correlates to natural carbonation.

Anyone know the/a formula for adding yeast for refermentation in a situation like this?

 

[melville]

Used in primay fermentation:

"CBC-1 does not utilize the sugar maltotriose (a molecule composed of 3 glucose units), and the result will be fuller body and residual sweetness in beer. Be advised to adjust mash temperatures according to desired result"

 

[marshallb]

It may be worth noting that CBC-1 is said to be great for fermenting under pressure. This gives credit to dry hopping and natural carbonation in the tanks before the beer is done.

 

[isomerization]

Need to finish some actual experiments (lol), but here is an aggregated pic of all the strains I've evaluated with the delta2-delta12 primer pair:

Legend:
A - WLP644
B - F1
C - F1/C4
D - Conan (TYB)
E - S-33 (Fermentis)
F - WB-06 (Fermentis)
G - K-97 (Fermentis)
H - Windsor (Danstar)
I - London ESB (Danstar)
J - WY1056
K - WY1272
L - WY1332
M - WY1318
N - WY1968
O - WLP670 (saison isolate)
P - WLP802
Q - TH Julius isolate (later determined to be T-58 like, green circle)
R - Vermont Ale (TYB; duplicate with D)
S - WY3944
T - TH Double Shot isolate (haven't gone back to see if this was the only strain...)
U - S-04 (Fermentis)
V - S-05 (Fermentis)
W - S-23 (Fermentis)
X - Munich (Danstar)
Y - W-34/70 (Fermentis)
Z - T-58 (Fermentis)
AA - CBC-1 (Lallemand)
BB - BE-256 (Fermentis)

 

[marshallb]

Need to finish some actual experiments (lol), but here is an aggregated pic of all the strains I've evaluated with the delta2-delta12 primer pair:

***Will edit in the Legend later this evening***

Aamzing work man! :rockin:

 

[melville]

someone might as well send isomerization a growler of Hill Farmstead now

 

[couchsending]

What I was getting at is that there is more to soft mouthfeel than glycerol levels. Cheapo brands used to add glycerol to increase mouthfeel and fullness in high adjunct beers; then they did studies and found it was more effective to add HFCS and bump the residual sugar. Glycerol is important, but the levels are so low in most beer that things like FG, water chemistry, and brew process are going to have more of an impact. And I'm sure yeast choice is part of that as well.

Sorry we're on different planes... I was thinking the glycerol was more for viscosity, thickness. Something I haven't been able to replicate in my beers yet. I agree that the softness is more water/process related and I'm under the impression its Alkalinity related to be more specific.

 

[couchsending]

someone might as well send isomerization a growler of Hill Farmstead now

I'm sending him some harvest HF ale yeast from a growler if that helps at all... might have to throw my last bottle of Everett in there too...

 

[couchsending]

Used in primay fermentation:

"CBC-1 does not utilize the sugar maltotriose (a molecule composed of 3 glucose units), and the result will be fuller body and residual sweetness in beer. Be advised to adjust mash temperatures according to desired result"

same is true for Windsor. This is why it has such low attenuation, doesn't eat Maltotriose

 

[StinkyBeer]

Same is true for London ESB and S-33...the more complex the sugar the quicker they are to flick you the bird.

Treehouse are being clever. Some of the best brewers in the world base their brewhouse around the concept of blending. Whether that's blending multiple fv's in to a single large BBT or blending multiple strains in to one FV, or blending over a considered fermenting timescale to achieve desired esters...or blending multiple barrel aged beers.

Glad I could add to the this wonderful thread in some way. Great work Isomerization, keep it up.

I'm brewing a colab with a Danish brewer on Friday and it's an IPA (Citra, El Dorado, Azacca, Denali) and I'm going with 40/30/30 (s-04, T-58, WB-06). Pitching and fermenting at 25. I'll keep you posted!

Was chatting to another brewer recently who knows T-58 like the back of his hand...he let's that puppy ride up to 33 and loves it. It's so versatile. Have a play.

 

[StinkyBeer]

We aim to have IPA's and DIPA's finishing 1.017-1.020. The beers don't taste under attenuated...they do feel full and thick and juicy.

 

[couchsending]

So if a brewery is using ESB, like Creature Comforts for instance, and Trolicalia finishes at 1.010 I think. Are they mashing super low or using enzyme like Convertase to get yo those gravities?! Does lowering mash temps minimize maltotriose?

 

[isomerization]

Really excited to hear about the finished products using the discussed blends!

I was thinking more about CBC-1 might be employed (by us or TH). Would we add this yeast with priming sugar and dry hops to the keg (would a spunding valve even be needed?) after primary fermentation has completed OR try to transfer the beer before primary has ended, adding just the CBC-1 and dry hops?

I completely agree about having a high FG (when that's the plan), I recently made a Mango Milkshake DIPA (posted about it in the Julius clone thread) that finished at 1.028. It has an amazing mouthfeel and nicely balanced hop/tart/sweet character.

And @couchsending, will keep you posted on the HF dregs and absolutely looking forward to trying that bottle of Everett, will be my first time with HF.

 

[DaveDiedDancing]

This is an awesome thread. I check it multiple times a day to keep up. Thank you guys

 

[mbbransc]

Same is true for London ESB and S-33...the more complex the sugar the quicker they are to flick you the bird.

Treehouse are being clever. Some of the best brewers in the world base their brewhouse around the concept of blending. Whether that's blending multiple fv's in to a single large BBT or blending multiple strains in to one FV, or blending over a considered fermenting timescale to achieve desired esters...or blending multiple barrel aged beers.

Glad I could add to the this wonderful thread in some way. Great work Isomerization, keep it up.

I'm brewing a colab with a Danish brewer on Friday and it's an IPA (Citra, El Dorado, Azacca, Denali) and I'm going with 40/30/30 (s-04, T-58, WB-06). Pitching and fermenting at 25. I'll keep you posted!

Was chatting to another brewer recently who knows T-58 like the back of his hand...he let's that puppy ride up to 33 and loves it. It's so versatile. Have a play.

Won't that S-04 begin throwing fusels at 25°C? I'm thinking I might pitch S-04 first, 2-days in raise temps to the 25°-ish level, pitch S-33/T-58 along with first dry hop. Maybe cap the FV then and finish fermentation under pressure?

 

[Ruckusz28]

Today after work I'll be taking a gravity reading and a sample. It's been 4 days. With an OG of 1.062 it's probably finished and should be cleaned up. If all things are go, I'll rack to the dry hop keg, pressurize, and chill. I estimate transferring to the serving keg Friday and hitting my belly on Saturday.

Update:

The beer finished at 1.009. There are no notable fruit esters on the aroma or taste. Hop aroma/flavor is subdued. A very good, drinkable beer, but very far from a NEIPA flavor profile.

Lessons learned - MASH HIGH; this will help contribute to dextrins and improved mouthfeel.

If I did this again, I would pitch initial yeast blend at the start. Adjust ratios to reduce amount of higher attenuating yeast in favor of lower attenuating yeast. Considering high mash temp, shoot for a FG of 1.018/1.020. At this point you would pitch your "finishing" yeast and dry hops while attaching your spunding. The beer would drop .02-.04 points and carbonate up "naturally" while dissolving all of those beautiful dry hop aromas into solution. Rack off to your serving keg and enjoy. Remember, TH IPA's finish around 1.014-1.016. That residual sweetness is critical to the perceived "juice" appeal.

Happy Brewing.

 

[melville]

Interesting.

So I just closed transfer mine to the keg with dry hops inside and a bit of pressure to sit for a couple of days before cold crashing and adding some gas.
I went from 1.068 to 1.010. I mashed at 150 so per @Ruckusz28, I'd be inclined to mash higher next time around.

Nothing super stands out, it looks like a neipa, and smells great, but then it would with citra, galaxy, and motueka. Taste-wise, I get some slickness (large oat% in this one could be contributing), some real light fusel, and in the very back — a hint of something I would describe as belgian or at least, un-IPA-like. No banana, no spice, no clove that I can detect, but I also wouldn't say there was any bubblegum. All in all, the esters such as they are seem more fruit like than anything else.

Depending how this turns out after it carbs up, I'd probably lower the t-58 percentage and consider upping the wb-06, or... start with the s-04, and a couple of days in add the wb-06 and a smaller amount of t-58. Obviously a ton of variables to play with here.

Again for reference my ratio was a 50:30:20 blend of S-04:WB-06:T:58

 

[melville]

Interesting.

So I just closed transfer mine to the keg with dry hops inside and a bit of pressure to sit for a couple of days before cold crashing and adding some gas.
I went from 1.068 to 1.010. I mashed at 150 so per @Ruckusz28, I'd be inclined to mash higher next time around.

Nothing super stands out, it looks like a neipa, and smells great, but then it would with citra, galaxy, and motueka. Taste-wise, I get some slickness (large oat% in this one could be contributing), some real light fusel, and in the very back — a hint of something I would describe as belgian or at least, un-IPA-like. No banana, no spice, no clove that I can detect, but I also wouldn't say there was any bubblegum. All in all, the esters such as they are seem more fruit like than anything else.

Depending how this turns out after it carbs up, I'd probably lower the t-58 percentage and consider upping the wb-06, or... start with the s-04, and a couple of days in add the wb-06 and a smaller amount of t-58. Obviously a ton of variables to play with here.

Again for reference my ratio was a 50:30:20 blend of S-04:WB-06:T:58

Digging around the Fermentis site it seems like WB-06 should be the more likely culprit to throw off fusels (and esters), also attenuation — 86% — about where I am with my beer. So maybe my thinking is off, more t-58, less wb-06. It's all very...confusing.

¯\_(&#12484_/¯

 

[isomerization]

Digging around the Fermentis site it seems like WB-06 should be the more likely culprit to throw off fusels (and esters), also attenuation — 86% — about where I am with my beer. So maybe my thinking is off, more t-58, less wb-06. It's all very...confusing.

¯\_(&#12484_/¯

I noticed that too, hard to say what is exactly going on (at TH), so will be even harder to figure out a schedule that works. Guess we have to make a lot of beer

I was looking back at my analyses of different cans, here are the breakdowns:

Julius: 7 S-04, 3 CBC-1, 2 T-58, 0 WB-06
Doppleganger: 5 CBC-1, 2 S-04, 2 WB-06, 1 T-58
Alter Ego: 7 S-04, 2 CBC-1, 1 T-58, 1 WB-06
Green: 5 CBC-1, 2 WB-06, 1 S-04

Now there are a lot of caveats here, I have no idea on the age of the cans and I definitely didn't analyze enough colonies for statistical power.

BUT, if we look at the distribution across all colonies analyzed (41 total), we get the following (rounded for convenience) and after the yeast is the % if we remove CBC-1 (i.e. post-primary addition):

41% - S-04 (66%)
37% - CBC-1
10% - T-58 (15%)
12% - WB-06 (19%)

I am still trying to wrap my head around the timing of everything. We know Nate is very meticulous, so I doubt he would want to give up fermentation control by pitching everything into the same vessel. This would argue for what StinkyBeer is doing, blending separately fermented beers together. The different ratios could reflect the volumes blended, but these yeast are going to flocc differently too. So...

The high amount of CBC-1 we see, does suggest it is being added late in the process, but its not going to eat any simply sugars, so does that argue for a sugar/dry hop addition? Do other breweries naturally carb this way?

 

[isomerization]

Someone previously mentioned dry hopping affecting final pH (didn't see it with a quick search of the last couple pages though), here is some data regarding the increase in pH that others have seen (e.g. Scott Janish's blog: http://scottjanish.com/increasing-bitterness-dry-hopping/): http://www2.uwstout.edu/content/lib/thesis/2014/2014schmickm.pdf

From the abstract (always read the abstract first!):
"Results showed that a mean pH increase of between pH 0.040 ± .003 and 0.056 ± 0.006 at a rate equivalent to 0.5 lb./bbl. of dry hops added. When adding dry hops equivalent to 3.0 lbs./bbl. there was a mean pH increase of pH 0.233 ± 0.022 and 0.332 ± 0.031. There was no significant correlation between the hop attributes analyzed and the increase in beer pH during dry hopping, and there was no significant correlation between the beer attributes analyzed and the increase in beer pH during dry hopping."

3 lb/bbl is just over 1.5 oz/gal, which I think a lot of us come close to (I'm a 1.2 oz/gal kind of guy myself).

 

[TheHairyHop]

Is anyone concerned about the fact that CBS-1 is considered to be a killer stain? This seems a bit incompatible with what we're seeing. Perhaps this explains the high ratio?

 

[skibb]

I am still trying to wrap my head around the timing of everything. We know Nate is very meticulous, so I doubt he would want to give up fermentation control by pitching everything into the same vessel. This would argue for what StinkyBeer is doing, blending separately fermented beers together. The different ratios could reflect the volumes blended, but these yeast are going to flocc differently too. So...

The high amount of CBC-1 we see, does suggest it is being added late in the process, but its not going to eat any simply sugars, so does that argue for a sugar/dry hop addition? Do other breweries naturally carb this way?

What I'm picturing now is, when fermentation is nearing the end they may crash the tank down to 60 F or so to promote some flocculation (lots of breweries do this before dry hopping), harvest/drop yeast and then dry hop + add CBC-1 + add sugar for carbonation. Some of the original strains from primary (SO-4/T-58/whatver) will still be floating around finishing up fermentation and will make it through to the end product.

That way the CBC starts fermenting the conditioning sugar while you develop the haze/mouth feel of beers dry hopped during active fermentation. Man I really wish I could get a better look at those tanks! Makes me wonder if they are adding the full amount of sugar to get to their finished CO2 volumes.

 

[isomerization]

Is anyone concerned about the fact that CBS-1 is considered to be a killer stain? This seems a bit incompatible with what we're seeing. Perhaps this explains the high ratio?

I'm glad you brought that up. I do have evidence that the red square strain takes over after several rounds of propagating the dregs. I am only going off memory (take better notes!) but I believe I allowed the TH Green dregs to propoagate in a small amount of YPD over the weekend (most of my samples are obtained during Friday happy hour). This would explain the skew towards CBC-1. This might explain others issues with continued pitching of TH dregs. Strasser might be able to comment more on this.

Now the question becomes, is this the IP protection/sabotage route everyone's mentioned OR is there a benefit here? To me, using WB-06 as the dry hop/natural carb yeast makes a lot of sense, as it's going to have sugar to eat after a S-04/T-58 ferment has finished.

 

[TheHairyHop]

They may be adding fresh wort instead of sugar. I've wondered if they pitch yeast, wort and massive dry hops into something attached to the fermenter, wait for the O2 to be consumed and then dump it into the already O2 purged vessel. It kind of goes along with my theory of gradual sugar additions that I think trillium could be doing. It's all hypothetical, but that's where my mind natural went when thinking about low O2

 

[skibb]

Well CBC-1 does ferment well and fast under high amounts of pressure, so for me, using that as the conditioning strain makes the most sense, especially if the are adding sugar/simple extract into the tank for it to consume (when they may also be adding the dry hop).

 

[couchsending]

If CBC-1 is a "killer" strain then then I doubt they are using it. There wouldn't have been any of other yeast to harvest at all...
The beer I made with dregs was very T-58 dominant. There wouldn't have been any T-58 if they used a killer strain to carbonate.

 

[TheHairyHop]

If CBC-1 is a "killer" strain then then I doubt they are using it. There wouldn't be any other yeast to harvest at all I believe.

did you see the genetic analysis?

 

[Ruckusz28]

I'm glad you brought that up. I do have evidence that the red square strain takes over after several rounds of propagating the dregs. I am only going off memory (take better notes!) but I believe I allowed the TH Green dregs to propoagate in a small amount of YPD over the weekend (most of my samples are obtained during Friday happy hour). This would explain the skew towards CBC-1. This might explain others issues with continued pitching of TH dregs. Strasser might be able to comment more on this.

Now the question becomes, is this the IP protection/sabotage route everyone's mentioned OR is there a benefit here? To me, using WB-06 as the dry hop/natural carb yeast makes a lot of sense, as it's going to have sugar to eat after a S-04/T-58 ferment has finished.

Dude, I've used several generations of TH dregs. I MAY have one vial left of Tree House and one of my Alchemist Conan. If I do, I'll send it to you to scope out.

The Tree House yeast kind of poops out after a while and will finish high. However if you're going to tag-in a new yeast, it may be exactly what you're looking for. I'd like to see somebody ferment solely with WB-06 on the high end of the temperatures threshold.

 

[couchsending]

did you see the genetic analysis?

Whoops missed that... I was under the assumption that the killer strains just anihilated everything.

 

[Ruckusz28]

Well CBC-1 does ferment well and fast under high amounts of pressure, so for me, using that as the conditioning strain makes the most sense, especially if the are adding sugar/simple extract into the tank for it to consume (when they may also be adding the dry hop).

I'm missing something. Why would they need to add sugar?

To me, it makes more sense to allow the beer to finish high (1.020 or so) using a less-attenuating yeast and then dry hop while adding in a higher attenuating yeast to take the beer down to 1.014 or so.

 

[skibb]

If they are adding a conditioning strain - especially one that only ferments simpler sugars (one and two chain), there should be no fermentable extract left in the beer after the primary strains are through with it because simpler sugars are consumed first as they require less energy to metabolize.

Also, adding sugar prolongs fermentation where you can possibly get biotransformation of hop oils and that classic NE haze.

As mentioned before some of these dry yeasts do not have the best attenuation, as in they do not ferment longer chain sugars easily, which leads these beers to have a more full mouth feel due to more residual sugars left behind. The picture I'm getting, is they are purposely going for lower attenuating yeasts because they want those longer chain sugars to come out on the other end of primary and secondary fermentation.

 

[melville]

If I knew why the heck they were using T-58 and WB-06, this could possibly make more sense.

S-04: Primary strain, the main workhorse. Probably goes in at the very beginning, probably under 70F.
WB-06: ?
T-58: Bubblegum? Doesn't clear. Also a conditioning strain.
CBC-1/F2: conditioning.

The whole thing just seems so random. Brewer loves Heady, Hill Farmstead, Sierra Nevada. Uses 4 dry fermentis yeasts.

 

[melville]

It will blow our collective minds when the HF analysis reveals they are also using the same 4 strains.

 

[Ruckusz28]

Not negating your idea (there are many different ways to do this), but the conditioning yeast of choice (particularly wb-06) would be perfectly capable of picking up where the lower attenuating yeasts would stop. I've done this before using a saison strain and had good results. @m00ps wrote an article on this and "new age" IPA probably a little over a year ago. I forget the title but it was published on the main page of HBT.

The whole "biotransformation" thing isn't something I buy in to. However, that's off-topic. Back to yeast.

 

[skibb]

I agree it would be - though I don't think they want a yeast to pick up where their primary yeasts stop... that is my point.

If there isn't any biotransformation (which I honestly do not know actually occurs), dry hopping during more active fermentation does produce significant haze. At least that has been my personal experience.

 

[isomerization]

Dude, I've used several generations of TH dregs. I MAY have one vial left of Tree House and one of my Alchemist Conan. If I do, I'll send it to you to scope out.

The Tree House yeast kind of poops out after a while and will finish high. However if you're going to tag-in a new yeast, it may be exactly what you're looking for. I'd like to see somebody ferment solely with WB-06 on the high end of the temperatures threshold.

Shoot me a PM if you'd like to send any yeast, and I will get you my mailing address.

I agree it would be - though I don't think they want a yeast to pick up where their primary yeasts stop... that is my point.

If there isn't any biotransformation (which I honestly do not know actually occurs), dry hopping during more active fermentation does produce significant haze. At least that has been my personal experience.

Why do you say that Skibb? I suppose its possible that they let WB-06 finish off the primary (where S-04/T-58 left off) and then add CBC-1 plus sugar (or wort) in the bright tank.

Does anyone think (or have seen pictures) that they might conduct primary under pressure the entire time? I have read that this would allow higher temps to be used, lower esters (maybe minimizing the "bad" kind) and higher glycerol production. There was a comment in the Scott Janish blog post I linked to above that mentioned Hill Farmstead does this...

 

[melville]

some interesting technical data from fermentis here:
http://www.seabrewasia.com/uploads/1/3/0/3/13033977/1._fermentis_yeast_selection.pdf

 

[skibb]

My thought is, if you are carbonating/ packaging you would want to add a yeast that is easily controlled, and not one that will over-ferment and over-carbonate the beer it is going into by eating more types sugars than you want it to.

A strain like CBC-1, where if added at the end and with simple priming sugar, should have less of a problem carbonating the beer under pressure do to its ability to ferment in stressful environments and its killer tendencies (to out compete the yeast already in solution). While at the same time, it will not eat the body contributing dextrins the lesser attenuating primary strains left behind.

All TH beers I've had share that fuller mouthfeel that I associate with dextrins and higher FG.

 

[StinkyBeer]

I've seen a video of a Treehouse blow off from one of their fermenters. Thing was going mad spitting out yeast all over the place!