Isolated Yeast (Tree House): How to Identify and Characterize?

[ThePaleAleIndian]

I do feel like I've read a bunch of people mention that s-04 mutes yeast character, but there must be a way...

Did you mean S-04 mutes hop character? If so, that is my perception as well. A possible solution I'm planning to try is to keg condition with wort as the priming sugar and re-hop that wort at kegging time. That way the bulk of fermentation with S-04 is over and the conditioning yeast strain could be different anyway (CBC-1, etc.). I am wondering if Treehouse is doing a commercial equivalent of that, since I suppose a commercial brewery would always have a supply of wort. However, I don't have any idea how they would go about re-hopping.

I did prime with wort I saved from brewday for the attempt I'm currently keg conditioning but I didn't re-hop it.

 

[Sbe2]

So who has room to blend? Haha

 

[isomerization]

Did you mean S-04 mutes hop character? If so, that is my perception as well. A possible solution I'm planning to try is to keg condition with wort as the priming sugar and re-hop that wort at kegging time. That way the bulk of fermentation with S-04 is over and the conditioning yeast strain could be different anyway (CBC-1, etc.). I am wondering if Treehouse is doing a commercial equivalent of that, since I suppose a commercial brewery would always have a supply of wort. However, I don't have any idea how they would go about re-hopping.

I did prime with wort I saved from brewday for the attempt I'm currently keg conditioning but I didn't re-hop it.

Yep, brain fart! I suppose the flocculant nature of the yeast could be pulling hop compounds out with it? If so, then hopping your speise (I think that's the term), could do the trick. Keep us posted!

 

[ThePaleAleIndian]

Yep, brain fart!

Happens to the best of us, haha!

I suppose the flocculant nature of the yeast could be pulling hop compounds out with it?

Yeah, this is what I was thinking as well. I have had a similar experience with 1968 on hoppy beers. It was ridiculous to me how flocculant 1968 is. On my last one the primary yeast cake literally peeled off the bottom of my carboy in one piece. It molded itself to the bottom of my carboy so well that I could read the stamps from the glass in the cake as it peeled off!

If so, then hopping your speise (I think that's the term), could do the trick. Keep us posted!

Will do. It may be a month or so before my next attempt, but I will report back.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

The best vacation that I've ever had was a solo tour of Kent

Just wait til you get to Manchester and Yorkshire....

Kent is too dominated by Shepherd Neame to make for a truly great drinking county, except for the green hop festivals at this time of year.

 

[NJGeorge]

So who has room to blend? Haha

I can try. I have two small 3 gal carboys and can transfer to a 5 gal keg.

 

[NJGeorge]

If so, then hopping your speise (I think that's the term), could do the trick. Keep us posted!

Edit. Nvm, did a little research and found how to do this. I'll give it a shot.

 

[couchsending]

I’ve suggested the blending idea since day 1... those small FVs in the front of the old location didn’t make much sense to me personally as they were rather odd sized for the size of their brewhouse...

but I still lean towards these alternate yeasts being added towards the end. If S-04 mutes hop character then its most likely caused by it being so flocculent and pulling down hop oils with it when it floccs. If they’re waiting until the S-04 floccs then adding WB-06 and or T-58 and some sugar with the DH those yeasts could be “biotransforming” some oils but also eating any available O2 and potentially dropping gravities a few points (wb-06). Those yeasts are also very poor floculators so they won’t pull any goodness out of solution with them. You could do this in a unitank, bung and capture most of Co2, transfer to conditioning tank and add more sugar and CBC-1 to finish off carbonation then crash and package.

I still don’t understand the CBC-1 as there is plenty of yeast in suspension to carbonate by just adding sugar. Unless it’s there to stop WB-06 from further attenuating or it reacts a certain way with Hop oils to produce a certain flavor compound. I must say I got lots of that signature Honeydew melon in a keg I carbonated with 1/2 CBC and half T-58 with the DH addition in the keg.

 

[couchsending]

I tried carbonating with some Speise that i soaked some more hops in before adding it to the keg to carbonate. I wasn’t that stoked on the results. I reheated the speise to a boil, then added some bagged hops (maybe 1oz?) below 180 and let it sit for 15 minutes, pulled the bag, then cooled it to pitching temp.

Read something on Kai’s website about how using wort pulled before fermentation to make a pseudo Krausen addition could potentially add oxidative off flavors to the beer. I didn’t do much more research on it however.

 

[ThePaleAleIndian]

I tried carbonating with some Speise that i soaked some more hops in before adding it to the keg to carbonate. I wasn’t that stoked on the results. I reheated the speise to a boil, then added some bagged hops (maybe 1oz?) below 180 and let it sit for 15 minutes, pulled the bag, then cooled it to pitching temp.

Read something on Kai’s website about how using wort pulled before fermentation to make a pseudo Krausen addition could potentially add oxidative off flavors to the beer. I didn’t do much more research on it however.

Huh, ok. That's exactly the process I was planning to do. Now I'm thinking again. Do you have a link to that article on Kai's website? I googled quick but couldn't find anything specifically on oxidative off flavors from hopping speise/gyle pulled before fermentation. I guess I'm just looking for more details, because I know the way he collects gyle is quite different from how I do it. He filters his kettle trub/sediment, where I collect directly from my full kettle in the last couple of minutes of the boil in 12 oz bottles and cap immediately while still hot and full to the brim. Not sure if one process vs. the other would make a difference. I bottle conditioned with good results this way for years before I started to keg, but never tried the re-hopping thing.

Chris Colby wrote an article on BYO or Beer and Wine Journal about doing a similar thing, kind of a hop stand with gyle in a French press:
http://beerandwinejournal.com/hop-aroma-extract/

(Not sure if that will link from my phone but the url should be good if you copy/paste.)

What was it about the beer that you tried this with that you didn't like?

 

[couchsending]

It was his write up on lagering that I found it. In the paragraph about krausening.

I just pulled a quart or two as I was transferring to fermentor. It was pitching temp and filled to top of a mason jar??

 

[TheHairyHop]

Just wait til you get to Manchester and Yorkshire....

Kent is too dominated by Shepherd Neame to make for a truly great drinking county, except for the green hop festivals at this time of year.

yorkshire is on the list. I still want to go to Bath and Cornwall first, however. I just enjoyed the smaller pubs in Herne and Whitstable. If you have any recommendations, I'd love to hear them! I feel as if I'm usually the one giving recommendations rather than receiving them

 

[TheHairyHop]

I tried carbonating with some Speise that i soaked some more hops in before adding it to the keg to carbonate. I wasn’t that stoked on the results. I reheated the speise to a boil, then added some bagged hops (maybe 1oz?) below 180 and let it sit for 15 minutes, pulled the bag, then cooled it to pitching temp.

Read something on Kai’s website about how using wort pulled before fermentation to make a pseudo Krausen addition could potentially add oxidative off flavors to the beer. I didn’t do much more research on it however.

this would make sense if raw wort is being stored for an extended period of time (1-2 weeks of fermentation). If there's no yeast activity, it will oxidize. With blending fermenters, however, they could have the wort under active fermentation at all points:

Week 0.0 - Brew main batch(es)
Week 1.0 - Brew fermentation batch. Split into X smaller fermenters for X number of main batches
Week 1.1 - When small batches hit target OG, dry hop. Wait for O2 to be consumed, transfer slurry to main batch(es)
Week 2.0 - Chill/Remove trub
Week 2.1 - Can

 

[NJGeorge]

Just tried a pour of the beer that I kegged Friday. It's carbing up good, but damn that Belgian flavor. It has that woodiness that I don’t like. It’s probably from the t-58. Btw this beer finished at 1.014

 

[ThePaleAleIndian]

this would make sense if raw wort is being stored for an extended period of time (1-2 weeks of fermentation). If there's no yeast activity, it will oxidize.

I don't know, I think it probably depends on the collection method as well. In my case, I collect speise/gyle by dipping regular 12 oz brown bottles into the boil in the last couple of minutes (never lost or broken a bottle in the boil in 10+ years of brewing). I pull out each bottle and immediately cap before there is any headspace due to shrinkage. I put the bottles in the fridge right away.

I figure there is essentially no oxygen dissolved in the boiling wort, and there is no headspace in the bottles for air to hide before I cap (headspace will appear as the bottles cool in the fridge, but in theory it would be pulling a vacuum). And any O2 that makes in only has a week to act at a cold temp that will inhibit the reactions anyway.

Anyway, this is just my personal experience and palate talking, but I have not had any problems with oxidation from this method so far, only from other stupid things I've done haha.

 

[melville]

Couple of random thoughts.
1. Hill Farmstead, crazy soft. Tree House, crazy soft. HF force carbing and TH is not.
2. Pitch rate might really matter with these yeasts. Doubling your pitch rate means doubling the amount of WB-06 and T-58 in a given volume of beer even if the total percentage stays the same. Their effects even in small doses are notable — as folks have noticed in here.

 

[melville]

Anecdotally, this last batch, I had to pitch a bit lower because I was using the leftovers from the previous batch, and I also lowered the percentages 7% T-58, 2.5% WB-06. Tastes really good and I don't notice anything weird.

 

[melville]

And by soft, I mean fluffy, the opposite of crisp, pillowy. On a scale of 1-10 HF and TH are like a 15, and I'm at 7 or 8. This is really my only current obsession right now, just haven't found the "this one really weird trick" to get all the way there. (yes I know, likely not one thing, but I'm sure there's some a-ha! moment waiting to happen).

 

[Northern_Brewer]

yorkshire is on the list. I still want to go to Bath and Cornwall first, however. I just enjoyed the smaller pubs in Herne and Whitstable. If you have any recommendations, I'd love to hear them! I feel as if I'm usually the one giving recommendations rather than receiving them

Beerwise Cornwall is really nothing special - admittedly St Austell is a better brewer than Sheps but it's a similar story - a peninsula makes it hard for competitors to break into a market where most pubs are tied to the dominant producer. I've heard that there are more breweries than free houses down there. Bristol's much better, it's probably fighting with Leeds to be third out of Britain's beer cities if you just looked at what was in the city but Leeds' hinterland is so much beer-richer, particularly if you extend it out to York and Sheffield.

Kent is the heartland of the micropub (it started as a reaction to Sheps' dominance) and they're fine, but there's no substitute for a proper pub, particularly when it's a freehouse.

Getting back vaguely on topic - whilst waiting for the new season hops to arrive from the US, last night I split a batch of Chinook/Amarillo pale to experiment with some of the yeasts mentioned in this thread. The T-58 took off like an absolute rocket within a few hours, even in just a gallon of wort.The others have been rather more sedate...

 

[Derp]

I still want to go to Bath and Cornwall first, however. I just enjoyed the smaller pubs in Herne and Whitstable. If you have any recommendations, I'd love to hear them!

Definitely pay a visit to The Old Green Tree in Bath. I've traveled to the UK many times and visited hundreds of pubs, and it is by far my favorite. Tiny, but the locals are friendly and chatty. The last time I was there I met a classical music composer and a guy who told me about the time his teenage band opened for The Beatles.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/foodandd...set-Pub-Guide-The-Old-Green-Tree-in-Bath.html

 

[NJGeorge]

Anecdotally, this last batch, I had to pitch a bit lower because I was using the leftovers from the previous batch, and I also lowered the percentages 7% T-58, 2.5% WB-06. Tastes really good and I don't notice anything weird.

Hmm so just to be sure, what temp did you pitch at and what temp did you ferment at? If fermented at a lower temp, at what point did you lower the temp? Thanks man!

 

[Jmash]

Anecdotally, this last batch, I had to pitch a bit lower because I was using the leftovers from the previous batch, and I also lowered the percentages 7% T-58, 2.5% WB-06. Tastes really good and I don't notice anything weird.

I'm drinking a batch now 85% S04 and 7.5% each of the other two. It worked out to a whole 11.5 packet of 04 to what should have been 2.03 grams a piece of T58 and WB06. I don't think my scale is good enough to get an accurate gram measurement even though it's supposed to be accurate (according to my wife). So I am indeed getting that Belgian flavor. The thing is I'm the only one who has a problem with it. Everyone else who's tried it thinks it's excellent. Still doesn't taste like Julius though. I'm going to try again and just throw a pinch of T-58 and WB-06 in because I think this beer would be spectacular without the Belgey taste.

FWIW I pitched at 65 and let it free rise up to 73
OG 1.074
FG 1.014

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Per the attached PDF, Danstar Windsor tosses up tropical fruit with no presence of Belgian like banana or clove. Would it be worth giving it a try straight up (solo) in an NEIPA?

View attachment Danstar Yeasts.pdf

 

[NJGeorge]

I'm drinking a batch now 85% S04 and 7.5% each of the other two. It worked out to a whole 11.5 packet of 04 to what should have been 2.03 grams a piece of T58 and WB06. I don't think my scale is good enough to get an accurate gram measurement even though it's supposed to be accurate (according to my wife). So I am indeed getting that Belgian flavor. The thing is I'm the only one who has a problem with it. Everyone else who's tried it thinks it's excellent. Still doesn't taste like Julius though. I'm going to try again and just throw a pinch of T-58 and WB-06 in because I think this beer would be spectacular without the Belgey taste.

FWIW I pitched at 65 and let it free rise up to 73
OG 1.074
FG 1.014

I have a problem with it too! Haha I think we need to pitch warm then drop to mid 60s 24 hours later. I had amazing juicy tree house like aromas coming from the airlock up until the last couple days fermenting. Probably dropping the temp will lock those esters in and not have that Belgian flavor. One thing I thought of in regards to this beer fermented with these yeast, do we also need to natural keg Carb at a specific temperature like 65 as well?

 

[Jmash]

I still have the juiciness. That's why everyone likes it but the belgey is there. I did cryo hops of 2 citra/1 mosaic/1 simcoe 3 times. Once at whirlpool. Then at day 5 and at day 10. Kegged at day 12. I am noticing this though. The first pour of the day has the most belgey taste. Must be the warmer beer in the line? It's much more subtle in the next pour.
I didn't naturally carb. I'm too impatient

 

[melville]

Hmm so just to be sure, what temp did you pitch at and what temp did you ferment at? If fermented at a lower temp, at what point did you lower the temp? Thanks man!

For this batch pitched at 65F and maintained at 65F for first 5, then 70 for a day.

 

[ThePaleAleIndian]

I'm drinking a batch now 85% S04 and 7.5% each of the other two. It worked out to a whole 11.5 packet of 04 to what should have been 2.03 grams a piece of T58 and WB06. I don't think my scale is good enough to get an accurate gram measurement even though it's supposed to be accurate (according to my wife). So I am indeed getting that Belgian flavor. The thing is I'm the only one who has a problem with it. Everyone else who's tried it thinks it's excellent. Still doesn't taste like Julius though. I'm going to try again and just throw a pinch of T-58 and WB-06 in because I think this beer would be spectacular without the Belgey taste.

FWIW I pitched at 65 and let it free rise up to 73
OG 1.074
FG 1.014

I did basically the same thing, a full package of S-04 and the same percentages. This is kind of how I'm feeling about my attempt as well, although I haven't set it loose on unsuspecting friends and family just yet. I guess I would describe mine as more hef-y than Belgian tasting though, at least that was the first thing that came to mind when I tried a sample at kegging time.

I'm going to give it a couple more days conditioning time before I tap the keg. I'm crossing my fingers, but based on the results everyone is seeing on here I guess I shouldn't expect the CBC-1 to clean it up much.

In your attempt, is it just the Belgian flavor that is keeping it from tasting like Julius?

 

[ThePaleAleIndian]

I'm drinking a batch now 85% S04 and 7.5% each of the other two. It worked out to a whole 11.5 packet of 04 to what should have been 2.03 grams a piece of T58 and WB06. I don't think my scale is good enough to get an accurate gram measurement even though it's supposed to be accurate (according to my wife). So I am indeed getting that Belgian flavor. The thing is I'm the only one who has a problem with it. Everyone else who's tried it thinks it's excellent. Still doesn't taste like Julius though. I'm going to try again and just throw a pinch of T-58 and WB-06 in because I think this beer would be spectacular without the Belgey taste.

FWIW I pitched at 65 and let it free rise up to 73
OG 1.074
FG 1.014

I did basically the same thing, a full package of S-04 and the same percentages. This is kind of how I'm feeling about my attempt as well, although I haven't set it loose on unsuspecting friends and family just yet. I guess I would describe mine as more hef-y than Belgian tasting though, at least that was the first thing that came to mind when I tried a sample at kegging time.

I'm going to give it a couple more days conditioning time before I tap the keg. I'm crossing my fingers, but based on the results everyone is seeing on here I guess I shouldn't expect the CBC-1 to clean it up much.

In your attempt, is it just the Belgian flavor that is keeping it from tasting like Julius?

 

[ThePaleAleIndian]

Anecdotally, this last batch, I had to pitch a bit lower because I was using the leftovers from the previous batch, and I also lowered the percentages 7% T-58, 2.5% WB-06. Tastes really good and I don't notice anything weird.

This is really encouraging! I will have to try lowering my percentages and pitch rates. How many grams of S-04 did you use in this one, and what was your batch size?

 

[Jmash]

I did basically the same thing, a full package of S-04 and the same percentages. This is kind of how I'm feeling about my attempt as well, although I haven't set it loose on unsuspecting friends and family just yet. I guess I would describe mine as more hef-y than Belgian tasting though, at least that was the first thing that came to mind when I tried a sample at kegging time.

I'm going to give it a couple more days conditioning time before I tap the keg. I'm crossing my fingers, but based on the results everyone is seeing on here I guess I shouldn't expect the CBC-1 to clean it up much.

In your attempt, is it just the Belgian flavor that is keeping it from tasting like Julius?

No I definitely have too much heffe taste too to make it like Julius. Like I said though I think this is going to be a really good beer. Just not Julius.

 

[NJGeorge]

For those of you that are naturally carbing in the keg with or without CBC; what temperature are you keeping it at? Will temp variance impact flavor at all?

 

[overthebarsbrewing]

I'm drinking a batch now 85% S04 and 7.5% each of the other two. It worked out to a whole 11.5 packet of 04 to what should have been 2.03 grams a piece of T58 and WB06. I don't think my scale is good enough to get an accurate gram measurement even though it's supposed to be accurate (according to my wife). So I am indeed getting that Belgian flavor. The thing is I'm the only one who has a problem with it. Everyone else who's tried it thinks it's excellent. Still doesn't taste like Julius though. I'm going to try again and just throw a pinch of T-58 and WB-06 in because I think this beer would be spectacular without the Belgey taste.

FWIW I pitched at 65 and let it free rise up to 73
OG 1.074
FG 1.014

So far in my experiments and from reading the results from others, I think that the "belgiany" & "weizen" notes may be driven somewhat by: (1) lower fermentation temps, (2) Addition of WB-06 to the mix, and (3) pitch rates. I've omitted WB-06 from my last two batches and also kept fermentation temps above 68F for the whole ferment. Started all of them in the 74-76F range The small bit of belgiany flavor/aroma that crept into my first batch has seemed to go away.

Yes, I know that goes against the pictures of TH fermenter temp pics being in the low/mid 60's but honestly, who knows if those are 100% legit. Give how secretive they can be, what's to stop them from deliberately changing the temp settings for the few hours that they are open each week? Also, thermostats could have even been unplugged from the fermenters. Wouldn't put anything past those sneaky brewers!

 

[overthebarsbrewing]

Couple of random thoughts.
1. Hill Farmstead, crazy soft. Tree House, crazy soft. HF force carbing and TH is not.
2. Pitch rate might really matter with these yeasts. Doubling your pitch rate means doubling the amount of WB-06 and T-58 in a given volume of beer even if the total percentage stays the same. Their effects even in small doses are notable — as folks have noticed in here.

FWIW I have deliberately underpitched and been really happy overall with results.

For 5gal batches of SG 1.056-1.068 IPAs, I've been pitching ~6g of S-04 and ~1-2g of T-58.

 

[ThePaleAleIndian]

For those of you that are naturally carbing in the keg with or without CBC; what temperature are you keeping it at? Will temp variance impact flavor at all?

In my case I left the keg at a steady 70-72F ambient after transferring. The caveat is that i transferred cold beer coming off my primary cold crash at 37F.

I haven't tapped my keg yet so I can't speak to the results, nor do I have a comparison done, back to back or otherwise. Fwiw my gut tells me conditioning with CBC-1 would be much less sensitive to temperature than the other yeasts in primary, just based on the the fact that Lallemand calls it neutral and gives a big temp range for refermentation, and that there's not a whole lot of sugar to go through just for conditioning. My phone won't let me attach the spec sheet for CBC-1.

For next time I am considering doing a primary ferment with S-04 only and conditioning with WB-06 and T-58, and maybe some CBC-1 to prevent the WB-06 from munching too much. I would imagine that could be more sensitive to temp during conditioning than conditioning with CBC-1 only, so I may end up dry hopping in bags and skipping the cold crash.

 

[NJGeorge]

So far in my experiments and from reading the results from others, I think that the "belgiany" & "weizen" notes may be driven somewhat by: (1) lower fermentation temps, (2) Addition of WB-06 to the mix, and (3) pitch rates. I've omitted WB-06 from my last two batches and also kept fermentation temps above 68F for the whole ferment. Started all of them in the 74-76F range The small bit of belgiany flavor/aroma that crept into my first batch has seemed to go away.

Yes, I know that goes against the pictures of TH fermenter temp pics being in the low/mid 60's but honestly, who knows if those are 100% legit. Give how secretive they can be, what's to stop them from deliberately changing the temp settings for the few hours that they are open each week? Also, thermostats could have even been unplugged from the fermenters. Wouldn't put anything past those sneaky brewers!

That’s what I’ve said before! That those temps might not even be the right temps but who knows. Wonder how Nate temp controlled when he home brewed..
I fermented at 75 so maybe I had too much wb-06 in the mix to produce those Belgian flavors. I have read though that fermenting warm with wb-06 will produce banana but I don’t get any banana in the finished beer. While fermenting maybe.

 

[ThePaleAleIndian]

So far in my experiments and from reading the results from others, I think that the "belgiany" & "weizen" notes may be driven somewhat by: (1) lower fermentation temps, (2) Addition of WB-06 to the mix, and (3) pitch rates. I've omitted WB-06 from my last two batches and also kept fermentation temps above 68F for the whole ferment. Started all of them in the 74-76F range The small bit of belgiany flavor/aroma that crept into my first batch has seemed to go away.

Awesome! Maybe there's hope for my current attempt that tasted relatively heff-y at kegging time.

I don't know, I'm a little reluctant to drop the WB-06 altogether, but maybe that's what I need to do. I swear I tasted a bunch of banana in a Haze I had a few days ago.

I am definitely planning on lowering the percentages and underpitching next time.

 

[Jmash]

So far in my experiments and from reading the results from others, I think that the "belgiany" & "weizen" notes may be driven somewhat by: (1) lower fermentation temps, (2) Addition of WB-06 to the mix, and (3) pitch rates. I've omitted WB-06 from my last two batches and also kept fermentation temps above 68F for the whole ferment. Started all of them in the 74-76F range The small bit of belgiany flavor/aroma that crept into my first batch has seemed to go away.

Yes, I know that goes against the pictures of TH fermenter temp pics being in the low/mid 60's but honestly, who knows if those are 100% legit. Give how secretive they can be, what's to stop them from deliberately changing the temp settings for the few hours that they are open each week? Also, thermostats could have even been unplugged from the fermenters. Wouldn't put anything past those sneaky brewers!

what is your S04 to T-58 yeast ratio?

 

[melville]

So far in my experiments and from reading the results from others, I think that the "belgiany" & "weizen" notes may be driven somewhat by: (1) lower fermentation temps, (2) Addition of WB-06 to the mix, and (3) pitch rates. I've omitted WB-06 from my last two batches and also kept fermentation temps above 68F for the whole ferment. Started all of them in the 74-76F range The small bit of belgiany flavor/aroma that crept into my first batch has seemed to go away.

Yes, I know that goes against the pictures of TH fermenter temp pics being in the low/mid 60's but honestly, who knows if those are 100% legit. Give how secretive they can be, what's to stop them from deliberately changing the temp settings for the few hours that they are open each week? Also, thermostats could have even been unplugged from the fermenters. Wouldn't put anything past those sneaky brewers!

Seems far more likely that those are indeed their temps vs a daily routine meant only to troll customers with a zoom lens.

 

[pizzorelli]

That’s what I’ve said before! That those temps might not even be the right temps but who knows. Wonder how Nate temp controlled when he home brewed..
I fermented at 75 so maybe I had too much wb-06 in the mix to produce those Belgian flavors. I have read though that fermenting warm with wb-06 will produce banana but I don’t get any banana in the finished beer. While fermenting maybe.

You guys also know that fermentation at scale is different than 5 gallon batches. For example, when pitched properly our 10 bbl fermenters take off so quickly that we get off flavors. To combat this we ferment at lower temperatures and slight pressure to slow the fermentation down.

I believe temps matter at 5 gallons but it's different than at scale.

Cheers

 

[skibb]

For example, when pitched properly our 10 bbl fermenters take off so quickly that we get off flavors.

No offense, but I would question how 'properly' you are pitching if you you're getting off flavors (due to what sounds like a significantly shortened lag/growth phase). I guess it could depend on the goals of your brewery, shaving a day off fermentation time, while being able to maintain product quality/stability could mean faster turnover and higher production volumes. If you can manipulate fermentation perimeters to compensate for overpitching, that's great - though I would still say you aren't pitching the correct amount of yeast (in the traditional sense I suppose).

I think the issue people are running into is when they use lower fermentation temperatures like seen at TH, they are not getting the ester profile that they detect in TH beer.

Maybe TH is doing high gravity brewing? Higher gravity would promote greater esterification. Also, it will decrease hop utilization... meaning they can throw more hops in the whirl pool and not have to worry about added bitterness.