Iscream, youscream we all scream for lagering!

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bowiefan

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Ok, strange thread title, but now that you're here....

My wonderfull, beautiful, awesome SWMBO bought me a 20 gallon brewpot for Christmas. So I wanted to do a little experement.

The back-story: I was at my LHBS about a year ago and they have a keggerator with 2 of their kit beers on tap at all times as a selling point. This time they had a Pennsylvania lager on tap that was very tasty and amazingly clean. I asked a couple questions and ended up buying the kit (turned out great BTW.) The thing that really stuck with me from the conversation was this, him:"we do the whole thing at room temps" Me:"but everyone says you can't get a clean lager without major temp control/refrigeration" Him:"That's what they say, have you ever tried it?"

In the interum, I have done several lagers and a steam beer or two. My lagers have turned out great and been very well recieved, bu tI have often wondered just how much of a difference that "cold lagering" makes. Specifically, if I didn't have the setup that I do, could I still make great lagers? and how would they change? We have a temp controlled wine cellar that stays at 50*F that I use for primary fermentation, and I have a dorm fridge that was my first keggerator that I use for a lagering chamber now. The thing is, it will only lager 1 carboy and I am going to be making 10 gallon batches. This presents an opportunity!

The experiment: I brewed an 11 gallon batch, split equally into 2 x 6 gallon carboys. both pitched with 450ml yeast slurry from the same starter of saflager s-23. One carboy will follow my normal lagering procedure, we will call it "SPROCKET-Frogger Lager-Hibernation." the other will go through primary in a swamp cooler in a 68*F house, and "lager" at room temps (68*F), we will call it "SPROCKET-Frogger Larger" (the SPROCKET name derives from a recently deceased family pet. Clearly amphibious.) The determination to be made is, can a homebrewer without much space or a spare fridge make a "lager" (in flavor profile), or is tight, low temp lagering a must?

For anyone interested, I will post updates here whenever an "action" is required on either beer. My intention is to have each beer run a parallel timeline with temperature being the only variable. I will keg and forcecarb each and tap on day 1 of the 2011 NHL Playoffs. At that time I will post detailed, comparative tasting notes from at least 4 well seasoned beer drinkers.
 
I too am very interested. I'm coming to the conclusion that lagering is somewhat over-rated. Everything I've brewed so far would be considered Ales, And I'm lovin' 'em!
 
Count me in. This is good stuff.

PS: lol @ "SPROCKET - Frogger Lager"
 
Ok, here is a 36 hour update. The batch was split into 2 better bottles at 1900 Sunday the 2nd. Each was pitched at 68*F with 450ml of saflager s23 slurry from the same starter. "Frogger lager" was placed in a bathtub contained swamp cooler. Ambient conditions in the tub are 70*F, 30% RH. The swamp cooler setup is a plastic keg tub with 6" of water, a cotton Tshirt over the better bottle, an aquarium pump keeping the shirt saturated and a 16" fan set on high. Evaporation rate is 1.5 gallons per day.

"Hibernation" was placed into a temp controlled wine cellar in an identical tub/shirt/pump setup but without the fan. Ambient conditions in the wine cellar are 52*F, 65% RH. Evaporative loss from the tum is minimal, the setup is not meant to cool much below ambient but only to enhance heat transfer.

When measuring temperatures, I will be taking 2 temps on each beer. First, the actual beer temp measured by submerging the lab thermometer in the center of the beer. Second, the temp of the saturated Tshirt covering each better bottle, as this is a more accurate representation of the bottle's environment than the ambient temp of the room.

As of 0500 today, both beers are at full krausen with vigorous airlock activity.

Frogger lager has a surface water temp on the Tshirt of 56*F with a beer temp of 58.4*F

Hibernation has a surface water temp of 48.2*F with a beer temp of 51*F.
A frozen water bottle was added to the tub containing Hibernation to help bring the temp down to 50*F.

And C.A.P.S. Caps Caps Caps!
 
Temps on day 3:

Hibernation:
Beer 53.2*F
Surface 53.9*F

Frogger Lager:
Beer 59.8*F
Surface 58.7*F

One noticable difference has already started to show. The warmer beer has a noticable fruity smell, while "Hibernation" is making my wine cellar smell like an elephant's backside. :cross:
 
Sorry, fell behind a bit on posting, good thing I took notes.

On day 11, Frogger Lager (60* ferment): krausen has fallen, gravity has reached 1.018.
Hibernation (53* ferment) krausen is starting to fall, gravity is at 1.028.
Frogger has quit throwing esters out of the airlock, beer is starting to show good clarity in a pipette, yeast cake is compact and relatively tight with few yeast rafts on the surface.
Hibernation is slowing down on the production of sulfer odors, no fruit esters detectable from the airlock. Mild turbidity and some movement of floculating yeast colonies. Yeast cake is fluffier on the top than Frogger.
Turned off the fan and circulating pump in the Frogger swamp cooler and allowed the temp to rise to 70*F

Day 15: Frogger is at 70*F and gravity has reached 1.012. Racked to a corny for secondary with the safety removed and an air lock fitted in it's place, it has been placed in a stable 68*F closet.. It will remain thus until two weeks before the start of the NHL playoffs.
Hibernation is at 52*F it has reached 1.028. Removed from the fermentation room and alowed to raise to 68*F, will rack to secondary on day 18 or when gravity reaches 1.012 and begin lowering temps for lagering.

I will take tasting samples at the time that both start lagering so that I may compare side by side.
 
In between. Everything was at 60*F when I pitched. I then brought Hibernation down to 52* over 24 hours.

Edit for clarification: the point of this for me is to see how much of a difference steam beer-ish techniques would really make to the final product, as that is the closest a lot of homebrewers can get to a traditional lager. As such, I wanted to give the Frogger Lager every chance to turn out right without using technology that an entry level brewer couldn't cobble together with very few $ and no additional space.
 
Latest update: both beers are in kegs with the safties removed and replaced with airlocks. Frogger Lager will finish up at room temp, Hibernation will finish the next month+ in the lagering chamber @ 31*F. Both finished up at 1.013 (previous measurments were made with a refractometer which was slightly off, probably due to the calculator I was using) both are very clear. Although, Frogger Lager(right) shows a very slight turbidity under strong light
IMG_20110123_163417.jpg

Flavor profile is nearly identicle. Both very clean, no detectable esters, no detectable dicetal. Frogger Lager is presenting a very slight bit more subtle roastiness from the 5 oz of blac patent I used in the batch, where the dominant malt note in hibernation is from the biscuit malt in the recipe. So far, I am not seeing the necessity for a fermentation chamber for brewing lagers, we will see how they are once the lagering is done.
 
Great experiment. I'm hoping to do my first lager and this has given me the confidence that it's not a waste of my time or efforts!

Also, do you have a copy of the recipe? (out of curiousity)
 
I still am a little unsure of how you can actually make q decent beer - ale or lager - with s-23...
 
how is this project coming along? ?

Hibernation has been lagering in my keezer @ 38*F forgger lager has been in the wine cellar @ 55*F. They are both carbing right now and will be tapped on Saturday the 17th?
Prior to puting on the CO2, we pulled a couple tasters durring a brew club meeting, consensus was no real difference, with both beers being very clean with no off notes from the yeast. Color and clarity are identical.
 
I still am a little unsure of how you can actually make q decent beer - ale or lager - with s-23...

S23 has a rep for throwing a lot of diacetal, and I wanted any differences to really show up. I wouldn't use S23 for a crisp pils or a Bud Light clone, but for a maltier recipe so far it isn't bad at all.
 
Wow, I can't make a clean beer with this yeast. I have tried different pitching rates, aeration, and fermentation temps, I can't make something that isn't full of tropical fruit esters. Maybe it likes darker beers, because everything I have tried it on has been pale to blonde.
 
Wow, I can't make a clean beer with this yeast. I have tried different pitching rates, aeration, and fermentation temps, I can't make something that isn't full of tropical fruit esters. Maybe it likes darker beers, because everything I have tried it on has been pale to blonde.

I've used a lot of it and i never got that. odd.

I do get a dry perfumeyness that I think I've had enough of. I've switched to a different dry lager yeast. I've done lliquid comparisons, too. 34/70 is a pretty good yeast.
 
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