Is my stainless steel braid working properly?

[adamjab19]

I built a rectangle cooler mash tun a while ago. Did the toilet hose braid thing. It always seemed to work fine but I am trying to dial in my effeciency. Maybe I am sparging with too much water, maybe I have a lot of dead space I am not accounting for (usually plug in .5 gallon into my calculator), maybe the braid isn't working properly but I have a ton of left over wort left over even after proper sparge water calculation. Is a braid suppose to suck everything up because I feel like I could just take the braid off, put something to filter the outlet, and tilt the mash tun so the wort just run out.

Does anyone else get this feeling with their braids or should I just account for more deadspace?

 

[djsethall]

Can you give an example of your brewday in detail? Your times and temps are somewhat important. To calculate your deadspace, put a gallon of water in, open it up and collect what comes out. That will show exactly how much deadspace you have. What kind of sparge do you do? Batch or fly? I would try a batch sparge and re-vourlauf it again and get maximum extraction. Who is grinding your grains, how does your crush look? Have you calibrated your thermometers/hydrometers? Look Here

 

[Ace_Club]

This sounds less like a SS braid question since the braid is really only there to act as a filter so that you don't pass grain from the MLT to the BK.

I guess the most important questions to ask would be are you getting enough wort into the kettle and is it at the correct pre-boil SG (i.e., does the pre-boil SG result in a decent mash efficiency)?

 

[Starderup]

I would also make sure your outlet is as close to the bottom as possible. I do the SS braid in my 36 quart Igloo, and I don't leave very much behind at all. After the batch sparge, while the boil is starting, I usually tip my cooler up at an angle and collect another 2-3 quarts of 1.040 wort perfect for yeast starters. When I dump the spent grain, there is no liquid.

 

[adamjab19]

Thanks guys. You have actually lead me to think about some other issues that I should check into such as calibration of therometers.

My process:

I usually throw in 175 degree water to preheat tun. Let it cool to 164ish or whatever the calculator tells me. Trhow grain in stir for a few minutes. Let rest for 60 minutes or so. Iodine check to see where the starches are at. Add roughly 2.5 gallons of 200 degree water for mash out at 10 mins. Vorlauf and drain slow, over 30 minutes or so. Add about 3-4 gallons depending on recipe for sparging. Not sure of the temp but it is what is left over from the 200 degree water so it is generally much cooler. Mix, vorlauf and drain slow again. Collect usually about 6- 6.5 gallons of wort. That's about it. Should I be splitting up that 3-4 gallon sparge?

Homebrew store does my crush. Which I have read on here can be a culprit. Maybe I should have them crush it finer?

Things I should do though:

check pre boil sg
calibrate therometer
tip my mash tun
calculate true deadspace of mash tun

 

[emjay]

.5 gallons deadspace is a LOT. Increasing it would only exaggerate the problem. My cooler has about 1 cup of deadspace... that's equal to like 1/16th of a gallon, or 0.0625

 

[Ace_Club]

Thanks guys. You have actually lead me to think about some other issues that I should check into such as calibration of therometers.

My process:

I usually throw in 175 degree water to preheat tun. Let it cool to 164ish or whatever the calculator tells me. Trhow grain in stir for a few minutes. Let rest for 60 minutes or so. Iodine check to see where the starches are at. Add roughly 2.5 gallons of 200 degree water for mash out at 10 mins. Vorlauf and drain slow, over 30 minutes or so. Add about 3-4 gallons depending on recipe for sparging. Not sure of the temp but it is what is left over from the 200 degree water so it is generally much cooler. Mix, vorlauf and drain slow again. Collect usually about 6- 6.5 gallons of wort. That's about it. Should I be splitting up that 3-4 gallon sparge?

Homebrew store does my crush. Which I have read on here can be a culprit. Maybe I should have them crush it finer?

Things I should do though:

check pre boil sg
calibrate therometer
tip my mash tun
calculate true deadspace of mash tun

Yes to all four of the above.

How do you calculate how much sparge water you need? Aside from there being liquid left over in the mash tun, how do you know you have a problem? It sounds like you're getting good volumes into the BK, but without a pre-boil SG, we can't say anything about your efficiency. Have you been hitting your post-boil OGs?

 

[broadbill]

What kind of tube do you have coming out of your MT? It sounds like you aren't getting a proper siphon so the MT is only draining to the level of where your outlet is, leaving significant runnings behind.

So what is your actual efficiency?

 

[Ace_Club]

What kind of tube do you have coming out of your MT? It sounds like you aren't getting a proper siphon so the MT is only draining to the level of where your outlet is, leaving significant runnings behind.

So what is your actual efficiency?

I'm guessing that the internal setup is just a SS braid coming off the drain, which would not allow a siphon to be created.

 

[magnj]

I just finish my first batch on my new setup and I have the same question, is this thing supposed to hold some kind of siphon? I have a 17" diameter kettle for a mash tun and there's quite a bit of dead space. With a pickup tube in the same size kettle that I use for HLT my dead space is 1.5 qt.

 

[broadbill]

I'm guessing that the internal setup is just a SS braid coming off the drain, which would not allow a siphon to be created.

That is what I was getting at

 

[Ace_Club]

I just finish my first batch on my new setup and I have the same question, is this thing supposed to hold some kind of siphon? I have a 17" diameter kettle for a mash tun and there's quite a bit of dead space. With a pickup tube in the same size kettle that I use for HLT my dead space is 1.5 qt.

No, a SS braid is not supposed to hold a siphon. That's why you need to factor the dead space into your brewday calcs.

 

[broadbill]

No, a SS braid is not supposed to hold a siphon. That's why you need to factor the dead space into your brewday calcs.

True, but having a hose attached to the other side you can get a siphon and eliminate dead space. You'll still have some dead-space that you need to account for.

 

[Ace_Club]

True, but having a hose attached to the other side you can get a siphon and eliminate dead space. You'll still have some dead-space that you need to account for.

Negative. Even with a hose on the other end you won't be able to create a siphon. The perforated nature of the SS braid will break the siphon.

 

[broadbill]

Negative. Even with a hose on the other end you won't be able to create a siphon. The perforated nature of the SS braid will break the siphon.

You can certainly start/maintain a syphon as long as the braided hose is covered with liquid. It will run until air is pulled into the line.

My thinking with the OP is that if he doesn't have a hose connected to drain the MT, no siphon is created and he will only be able to drain for as long the force of gravity pushing the liquid out of the MT valve is greater than the capillary action of the grain bed keeping the liquid in the MT.

 

[JuanMoore]

Tilt your cooler to drain as much as you can and minimize deadspace. Without more information that's the only advice I can give.

You can certainly start/maintain a syphon as long as the braided hose is covered with liquid. It will run until air is pulled into the line.

My thinking with the OP is that if he doesn't have a hose connected to drain the MT, no siphon is created and he will only be able to drain for as long the force of gravity pushing the liquid out of the MT valve is greater than the capillary action of the grain bed keeping the liquid in the MT.

It's not a siphon when the braid is covered with water, it's simply draining. For a siphon to occur, liquid has to flow up, and then back down. With the braid set-up the liquid only flows down in a draining action, not a siphon action. Siphoning would only occur if the braid were attached to a dip-tube.

 

[magnj]

Ok, what if you take some high temp transfer hose and slice it in such a way that it's almost flush with the bottom of the kettle, and then wrap the braid around that?

 

[magnj]

Like this:

 

[adamjab19]

sorry for the late response here.

All i have is the silicon hose coming off of the valve into my BK.

I use the online mash 365 calculator and I think I have been putting too much deadspace into the calculator thus getting too much sparge water and then I end up with too much water left over. I set my recipes to a 75% effeciency but usually miss by about 10 points or so.

I'll check the things I mentioned in my previous post and decrease the deadspace in my water calculations and see what happens. For some reason I was thinking that if I increase my deadspace water in my calculations I would be making up for something, but I was just making a worse problem.

 

[Ace_Club]

sorry for the late response here.

All i have is the silicon hose coming off of the valve into my BK.

I use the online mash 365 calculator and I think I have been putting too much deadspace into the calculator thus getting too much sparge water and then I end up with too much water left over. I set my recipes to a 75% effeciency but usually miss by about 10 points or so.

I'll check the things I mentioned in my previous post and decrease the deadspace in my water calculations and see what happens. For some reason I was thinking that if I increase my deadspace water in my calculations I would be making up for something, but I was just making a worse problem.

Definitely determine your deadspace by experiment so that you get an exact number. This is as simple as adding 1-2 gallons into the cooler and then tilting (by as much as you tilt during a normal mash) to get as much out as possible. Measure the remaining water.

Also, start calculating your efficiencies pre-boil so that you can better dial in your system and recipes.

 

[broadbill]

sorry for the late response here.

All i have is the silicon hose coming off of the valve into my BK.

I use the online mash 365 calculator and I think I have been putting too much deadspace into the calculator thus getting too much sparge water and then I end up with too much water left over. I set my recipes to a 75% effeciency but usually miss by about 10 points or so.

What do you mean by too much water left over? Do you mean you are leaving some sparge water in the MT after getting your pre-boil volume? If you are collecting your pre-boil volume that is all you are going to get, regardless if you measured/know your dead-space.

Have you looked at more obvious things that might cause bad efficiency? Poor grain crush seemed to be the cause of 95% of the cases of bad efficiency (if the posts on this board are any indication). Have you looked at this? Also, are you sure your volumes are right? (FYI...ale pale volume designations are notorious for being inaccurate). Are you correcting your hydrometer samples for temperature?

Can you post your volume numbers so we can take a look? The online calculators are nice, but you can usually eye-ball a problem just by looking at the numbers....

 

[emjay]

What do you mean by too much water left over? Do you mean you are leaving some sparge water in the MT after getting your pre-boil volume? If you are collecting your pre-boil volume that is all you are going to get, regardless if you measured/know your dead-space.

Have you looked at more obvious things that might cause bad efficiency? Poor grain crush seemed to be the cause of 95% of the cases of bad efficiency (if the posts on this board are any indication). Have you looked at this? Also, are you sure your volumes are right? (FYI...ale pale volume designations are notorious for being inaccurate). Are you correcting your hydrometer samples for temperature?

Can you post your volume numbers so we can take a look? The online calculators are nice, but you can usually eye-ball a problem just by looking at the numbers....

His problem stems from the fact that his pre-boil volume is far too much, as he explained in the OP. I posted very early on in this thread that the half gallon he had just randomly entered as deadspace (which is EXTREMELY high, and very unlikely) was the source of the problem, partially because that's really the only thing that would cause this (aside from bad calculations), but also because he seemed to think that increasing the number would solve his problem, when it would add even more sparge water.

 

[adamjab19]

I didn't want to have so much leftover because that to me is left over sugars in the grain bed. Where if I had enough I would wash the grains with enough water and get all I could that way. Everytime i saw all of that leftover wort and then I would miss my numbers it was becoming a bit of a concern. At first I thought my braid wasn't working but turns out I may have just been adding too much water! Doh!

My ale pal matches what my pyrex measuring cups give me.

My therometer is 32 degrees in ice water.

unfortunately I will never own my own grain mill. I don't brew enough to justify the cost of some equipment. plus I will never have bulk grain. it's just easier for me to get ingredients as I need them from the homebrew store and have them grind for me. So I was trying to fix what I could on my end even if it means when this is all through that I need to deal with the homebrew crush or me asking them to grind finer.

Thanks again. I have been doing the same thing for the past few years (i don't brew often) and my last batch I said that's enough! It helps to have people to look in from the outside to point things out even if they are so obvious.

 

[adamjab19]

Well i calculated my pre boil gravity and it was 1.040 suppose to be 1.050 so I ended up with a beer that was suppose to be 1.060 OG actually was 1.050 OG. I didn't have any DME.

So I did some quick calculations and I am at about 60-65% efficiency. I think next brew I am going to ask the homebrew store to go a little finer with the grind.

I reduced the deadspace number when calculating water and that seemed to help. So it seems like this is not an equipment issue so much as I am leaning to an ingredient issue.

 

[emjay]

Well i calculated my pre boil gravity and it was 1.040 suppose to be 1.050 so I ended up with a beer that was suppose to be 1.060 OG actually was 1.050 OG. I didn't have any DME.

So I did some quick calculations and I am at about 60-65% efficiency. I think next brew I am going to ask the homebrew store to go a little finer with the grind.

I reduced the deadspace number when calculating water and that seemed to help. So it seems like this is not an equipment issue so much as I am leaning to an ingredient issue.

Most stores won't accommodate requests for a finer crush, simply because of the extra trouble of adjusting both sides equally, making sure it's still a reasonable gap, and then doing it all over again to set it back to their default, especially when they would already be losing a bit just by the increase in efficiency.

No harm in trying, though.

 

[djsethall]

Most stores won't accommodate requests for a finer crush, simply because of the extra trouble of adjusting both sides equally, making sure it's still a reasonable gap, and then doing it all over again to set it back to their default, especially when they would already be losing a bit just by the increase in efficiency.

No harm in trying, though.

You could ask the LHBS to mill it twice, but be careful of stuck mashes. If you do the double grind, I would suggest rice hulls as an adjunct

 

[adamjab19]

the one place I go to asks me if their house crush is OK and I have always said yes and the other place I go to lets your grind your own. Which now that I think about it may be the problem. I'm sure some ******* went back there not knowing what the hell they were doing and turned some knobs..... Their grind is usually set at .037 or .37 something like that. I'll have to figure it out.

 

[adamjab19]

Thanks again everyone for trouble shooting with me.