Is Mashout really necessary ?

[bobtheUKbrewer2]

I do full volume mashes (32 litre for 25 litre of wort). After the 60 minute mash (around 68 deg C ) I transfer 4 litres to my boiler at full power, so after 5 mins it is maybe 90 deg C. I then add another 4 litres at 68 deg C, and in the time it takes me to run off another 4 litres the boiler is at a temp well above 75 deg C. So I suppose I am doing instant mashout, Why would I heat the whole 25 litres to 75 deg C BEFORE transfer to boiler. I am not saying I am right - Maybe I am missing something - but the experts on here will no doubt offer valuable guidance.

 

[hotbeer]

How long before you begin heating for your boil?

The longer the time, the longer certain enzymatic actions will continue changing the makeup of sugars and stuff in your wort. Though usually considered more of an issue for larger brewers selling their product where each batch must be the same.

 

[monkeymath]

I always perform a mashout because it's simple enough to do on my system... Allegedly, it can aid head retention, locks in the sugar profile (well, your enzymes are usually mostly denatured by the end of the mash anyway, so eh) and increases the viscosity, thereby improving the run-off speed and efficiency. But the effect is probably rather small and I wouldn't think twice about skipping it if it were any kind of nuisance in my process.

 

[odie]

I mash while at work, so after 10 hours mashing there is nothing left to mash.

 

[VikeMan]

I always perform a mashout because it's simple enough to do on my system... Allegedly, it can aid head retention, locks in the sugar profile (well, your enzymes are usually mostly denatured by the end of the mash anyway, so eh) and increases the viscosity, thereby improving the run-off speed and efficiency.

I guess it may depend on what you mean by "mostly denatured," but in trials, Greg Doss (Wyeast) measured worts that were about three percent more attenuable just going from 60 to 90 minutes.

And Kai Troester found attenuability changing by about two percent between 90 minutes and 280 minutes. Though I suspect significant lingering enzyme activity at an extreme mash length like this may be fairly mash temperature and malt dependent (and maybe even pH dependent?).

That said, my own results with various mash lengths have been pretty consistent with both Greg's and Kai's data.

 

[hout17]

If you are transferring your brew quickly to boiling there is no need for mash out lol. If not, then yes, I would mash out to preserve the sugar profile.

 

[McMullan]

There are very good reasons not to, if you're aiming to ferment out a wash and distill downstream.

 

[monkeymath]

I guess it may depend on what you mean by "mostly denatured," but in trials, Greg Doss (Wyeast) measured worts that were about three percent more attenuable just going from 60 to 90 minutes.

And Kai Troester found attenuability changing by about two percent between 90 minutes and 280 minutes. Though I suspect significant lingering enzyme activity at an extreme mash length like this may be fairly mash temperature and malt dependent (and maybe even pH dependent?).

That said, my own results with various mash lengths have been pretty consistent with both Greg's and Kai's data.

Thanks for digging out these numbers! In my simplified view of the brewverse, an additional two or three percent attenuation aren't going to make or break a beer.

 

[bobtheUKbrewer2]

thanks all - hotbeer, boil starts within one minute of mash end. I was not asking how long to mash, but welcome the comments about this. While wort is "waiting" to be added to the boil, it is maintained at 68 deg C

 

[McMullan]

boil starts within one minute of mash end.

You manage to go from 68°C to 100°C within a minute? What are you using, a nuclear reactor?

 

[bobtheUKbrewer2]

McMullen - I was using the word boil to mean the boiling process. The heating element in the burco boiler is 3 kw.
With only 4 litres added at the beginning I "think" 75 deg C is exceeded within one minute. Once 4 litres is at 90 deg C adding another 4 litres at 68 deg C means I instantaneously reach 84 deg C

 

[monkeymath]

thanks all - hotbeer, boil starts within one minute of mash end. I was not asking how long to mash, but welcome the comments about this. While wort is "waiting" to be added to the boil, it is maintained at 68 deg C

The discussion of longer mash times brought forth by @VikeMan is a valid comparison since the wort that is "sitting" during the run-off is still at mash temperature (68 deg C, as you say). So depending on how long it takes, that is basically equivalent to mashing longer.

For me, wort run-off takes about 40-50 minutes (including the sparge; but the volume of wort passing through the grainbed is the same), so if I did not perform a mashout, then half of my wort would essentially be mashed for an additional twenty minutes. Still, as I mentioned, the effect on attenuation is negligible imho. If your run-off takes only 20 minutes, the effect will be even smaller.

 

[jrgtr42]

I batch spare, so run off is basically as fast as my spout can handle. I don’t bother with a mashout. I’ll get the first running on to start getting up to tamp as the second runnings are working. If I time it just right, the first are almost up to boiling temp as I add in the second.

 

[SRJHops]

From my experience, I don't think a mashout is necessary. My batch sparge runoff is 10 mins or so. I usually hit my gravity targets. I go right to the boil after sparging... So I've never understood the point of the mashout, at least for my process.

 

[RM-MN]

If you don't usually get full conversion (starches left in the grain particles) and you want to have a specific OG and FG, you do a mashout to preserve the wort just as it is. This is particularly true for a fly sparge that may take an hour as the enzymes will keep working. It isn't very important for batch sparging as long as you don't take a long time for it and it isn't important at all if you have full conversion.

 

[MicroMickey]

George Fix was a proponent of an additional rest at 160 oF for 10 minutes. This helps develop glyco-proteins which are polymers of dextrins and middle to high molecular weight proteins. They promote foam stability.

Many home-brewers don’t mash-out because they don’t have the facility to do the heating without either scorching the mash or melting their plastic mash tun. Of course, omitting the mash-out is not a deal breaker as many fine beers are made every day without it. If a proper mash regimen is completed, there is little else for the enzymes to do anyway. The one thing missing here is that by not heating the mash, the viscosity isn’t thinned enough to make your lauter more efficient at retrieving the sugars from the mashed grist. An easy option would be to do an infusion of near boiling water to raise the mash temp just before the vorlauf and lauter. A portion of your sparge water could be heated for this infusion.

 

[NitrogenWidget]

I mash while at work, so after 10 hours mashing there is nothing left to mash.

ha. i usually mash in on my lunch when working from home then let it sit until after work.
efficiency through the roof.

have never mashed out and really haven't felt a desire to try it.

 

[Andre3000]

You manage to go from 68°C to 100°C within a minute? What are you using, a nuclear reactor?

Mmmm hop iso-tope acids.

 

[SRJHops]

George Fix was a proponent of an additional rest at 160 oF for 10 minutes. This helps develop glyco-proteins which are polymers of dextrins and middle to high molecular weight proteins. They promote foam stability.

Many home-brewers don’t mash-out because they don’t have the facility to do the heating without either scorching the mash or melting their plastic mash tun. Of course, omitting the mash-out is not a deal breaker as many fine beers are made every day without it. If a proper mash regimen is completed, there is little else for the enzymes to do anyway. The one thing missing here is that by not heating the mash, the viscosity isn’t thinned enough to make your lauter more efficient at retrieving the sugars from the mashed grist. An easy option would be to do an infusion of near boiling water to raise the mash temp just before the vorlauf and lauter. A portion of your sparge water could be heated for this infusion.

Interestingly, I seem to do that Fix rest without knowing it, because my sparge is usually around 160. Maybe that is why the head retention on my beers is often quite good. By accident!

My question is how much would my efficiency really increase if I did a mashout, compared against time spent heating the water. I seem to get good efficiency when the sparge water is whatever temp it is, which in my case is usually around 160 as I noted. I personally don't chase higher efficiency. I just want to hit the efficiency in my recipe.

 

[Gus_13]

I'm a stickler for hitting my numbers as often as possible so I do a mash out with almost everything but Saisons. I was having issues with most all beers over attenuating and the mash out has seemed to fix that. Before my move to a 3V HERMs every beer I did in a cooler mash tun over attenuated. If you aren't really worried about that, I don't see why you couldn't skip it. I like to have repeatable beers personally so it doesn't hurt me to do them.

 

[Ninoid]

BIAB, no sparge - no
All Grain, sparge - yes ( prevents the grain temperature falling below 60'C during sparge)

I brew BIAB (no sparge) and few times try Mashout and I didn't notice any difference so I gave up on it, but I read in brew literature that it is useful if sparge.

 

[jcav]

I have a three vessel e-herms so it is easy to raise the temperature and do a mash out. I always do. It takes me between 50 minutes to a little over an hour to sparge (depending on the style I am making), and I like to have recipes that I can repeat and make again and come out the same. A mash out helps with this and also with easier flow when sparging. This has been my experience so I always do it.

This is a topic that can go either way in popularity so I just do what works well for me. I have read that you can sparge with warm or even cold water and it will not effect the flow or sugar extraction when sparging, but I think this may be erroneous information and needs to be tested. I do believe that for repeatability when you mash out it locks in your recipe and this has been my experience.

 

[AlexKay]

My first batch ever was BIAB, which I did with too-hard water and a mashout. High temperature and high pH is a very bad combination, for reasons of tannin extraction. It was the only non-kartoffelbier I’ve ever dumped without drinking a full glass.

 

[doug293cz]

I always perform a mashout because it's simple enough to do on my system... Allegedly, it can aid head retention, locks in the sugar profile (well, your enzymes are usually mostly denatured by the end of the mash anyway, so eh) and increases the viscosity, thereby improving the run-off speed and efficiency. But the effect is probably rather small and I wouldn't think twice about skipping it if it were any kind of nuisance in my process.

I think you meant to say that a mashout (increasing the mash temp) decreases the viscosity of the wort, as increasing it would slow down the run-off a bit. The effect is not that large however. You can massage the data here to determine that increasing the temp of a pure sucrose solution from 150°F to 170°F decreases the viscosity by 16%.

If wort behaved like pure sugar solutions, then increasing the temp would indeed lower the viscosity. However, wort is more complex than a simple sugar solution, and the "Wort and Beer Fining Manual" has this to say:

"Coagulation of mash particles is favoured by an increase in final mash temperature, though this may also increase wort viscosity, which will tend to offset the beneficial effects of coagulation on run off rates."​

Also, increasing the maximum possible wort drain rate may not matter when fly sparging, as you usually limit the drain rate to prevent channeling during the sparge.

For batch sparging, a slightly lower drain rate will increase the time to get complete run-off, but how does this increased time compare to the time required to heat to mash-out temp? There is probably no significant net time reduction.

There are very good reasons not to, if you're aiming to ferment out a wash and distill downstream.

If I wanted to distill the fermented "beer", I would add amyloglucosidase (aka glucoamylase or just gluco) to the fermenter in order to reduce all of the dextrins, and any residual starch, to fermentable sugar, and thus increase my overall yield.

George Fix was a proponent of an additional rest at 160 oF for 10 minutes. This helps develop glyco-proteins which are polymers of dextrins and middle to high molecular weight proteins. They promote foam stability.

Many home-brewers don’t mash-out because they don’t have the facility to do the heating without either scorching the mash or melting their plastic mash tun. Of course, omitting the mash-out is not a deal breaker as many fine beers are made every day without it. If a proper mash regimen is completed, there is little else for the enzymes to do anyway. The one thing missing here is that by not heating the mash, the viscosity isn’t thinned enough to make your lauter more efficient at retrieving the sugars from the mashed grist. An easy option would be to do an infusion of near boiling water to raise the mash temp just before the vorlauf and lauter. A portion of your sparge water could be heated for this infusion.

See above comments. Viscosity reduction from a mash-out is minimal at best. If fly sparging, using part of your "sparge" water as a temp increasing infusion, will end up decreasing your lauter efficiency, as you decrease the amount of actual sparge water used.

Interestingly, I seem to do that Fix rest without knowing it, because my sparge is usually around 160. Maybe that is why the head retention on my beers is often quite good. By accident!

My question is how much would my efficiency really increase if I did a mashout, compared against time spent heating the water. I seem to get good efficiency when the sparge water is whatever temp it is, which in my case is usually around 160 as I noted. I personally don't chase higher efficiency. I just want to hit the efficiency in my recipe.

The only time a mash-out can significantly increase your mash efficiency is if your gelatinization and solubilization of the starches is not complete at the "end" of your mash. If this is the case, then the mash-out basically allows these two processes to continue for an extended time, and at a higher rate because of the increased temp (essentially just increasing your effective mash time.) This will give you more extract in solution, which will raise the SG of the wort in the mash, thus increasing conversion efficiency. If your mash has already completely gelatinized and solubilized all the starch, then a mash-out will not increase the SG of the wort in the mash.

BIAB, no sparge - no
All Grain, sparge - yes ( prevents the grain temperature falling below 60'C during sparge)

...

What is detrimental about letting the grain bed temp fall below 60°C (140°F)?

... I have read that you can sparge with warm or even cold water and it will not effect the flow or sugar extraction when sparging, but I think this may be erroneous information and needs to be tested.

This has in fact been tested experimentally. You can read about the experiment here. You need to have either done a mash-out, or achieved 100% conversion of starch to soluble extract, in order for a cold sparge to be equivalent to a hot sparge. Otherwise the hot sparge will effectively extend the mash time and create more extract (higher SG.)

-------------------------------------------

For what they are worth, here are my recommendations w.r.t. mash-out:

• If you are fly sparging, and concerned about limiting the fermentability of your wort, then do a mash-out. If you are not concerned about limiting fermentability, then it doesn't really matter what you do.
• If you are doing batch or no-sparge, then you can get the same effect as a mash out by starting the boil as soon as you have enough run-off to safely start heating to a boil.

Brew on

 

[Ninoid]

I think you meant to say that a mashout (increasing the mash temp) decreases the viscosity of the wort, as increasing it would slow down the run-off a bit. The effect is not that large however. You can massage the data here to determine that increasing the temp of a pure sucrose solution from 150°F to 170°F decreases the viscosity by 16%.

If wort behaved like pure sugar solutions, then increasing the temp would indeed lower the viscosity. However, wort is more complex than a simple sugar solution, and the "Wort and Beer Fining Manual" has this to say:

"Coagulation of mash particles is favoured by an increase in final mash temperature, though this may also increase wort viscosity, which will tend to offset the beneficial effects of coagulation on run off rates."​

Also, increasing the maximum possible wort drain rate may not matter when fly sparging, as you usually limit the drain rate to prevent channeling during the sparge.

For batch sparging, a slightly lower drain rate will increase the time to get complete run-off, but how does this increased time compare to the time required to heat to mash-out temp? There is probably no significant net time reduction.



If I wanted to distill the fermented "beer", I would add amyloglucosidase (aka glucoamylase or just gluco) to the fermenter in order to reduce all of the dextrins, and any residual starch, to fermentable sugar, and thus increase my overall yield.



See above comments. Viscosity reduction from a mash-out is minimal at best. If fly sparging, using part of your "sparge" water as a temp increasing infusion, will end up decreasing your lauter efficiency, as you decrease the amount of actual sparge water used.



The only time a mash-out can significantly increase your mash efficiency is if your gelatinization and solubilization of the starches is not complete at the "end" of your mash. If this is the case, then the mash-out basically allows these two processes to continue for an extended time, and at a higher rate because of the increased temp (essentially just increasing your effective mash time.) This will give you more extract in solution, which will raise the SG of the wort in the mash, thus increasing conversion efficiency. If your mash has already completely gelatinized and solubilized all the starch, then a mash-out will not increase the SG of the wort in the mash.



What is detrimental about letting the grain bed temp fall below 60°C (140°F)?



This has in fact been tested experimentally. You can read about the experiment here. You need to have either done a mash-out, or achieved 100% conversion of starch to soluble extract, in order for a cold sparge to be equivalent to a hot sparge. Otherwise the hot sparge will effectively extend the mash time and create more extract (higher SG.)

-------------------------------------------

For what they are worth, here are my recommendations w.r.t. mash-out:

• If you are fly sparging, and concerned about limiting the fermentability of your wort, then do a mash-out. If you are not concerned about limiting fermentability, then it doesn't really matter what you do.
• If you are doing batch or no-sparge, then you can get the same effect as a mash out by starting the boil as soon as you have enough run-off to safely start heating to a boil.

Brew on

You wrote right in the end.

I brew BIAB and turn on the heater right after lifting the bag and I don’t do the mash out, but the one that sparges using the mash out stops the sugar extraction process.

 

[DBhomebrew]

It seems to me there's some misunderstanding about what the mash out (or flame on) stops or 'locks in'.

Ideally, it's not the amount of conversion or sugar extraction. Conversion, the changing of gelatinized starches into dissolved sugars, should be 100% complete before the mash out (or flame on).

With conversion complete, mashing out (or flame on) stops the ongoing shortening of long sugars into more fermentable short sugars.

Relatedly, this seems to be a part of some arguments that a super short mash is all that's required because once conversion's complete, Bob's your uncle. Conversion is merely changing starch into sugars, which with a fine grind can be done very quickly. But the rest of the mash is about what kind of sugars.

 

[VikeMan]

It seems to me there's some misunderstanding about what the mash out (or flame on) stops or 'locks in'.

Ideally, it's not the amount of conversion or sugar extraction. Conversion, the changing of gelatinized starches into dissolved sugars, should be 100% complete before the mash out (or flame on).

With conversion complete, mashing out (or flame on) stops the ongoing shortening of long sugars into more fermentable short sugars.

Relatedly, this seems to be a part of some arguments that a super short mash is all that's required because once conversion's complete, Bob's your uncle. Conversion is merely changing starch into sugars, which with a fine grind can be done very quickly. But the rest of the mash is about what kind of sugars.

^ Agree almost 100%. One nit: After all the starches are turned into something other than starches (i.e. 100% conversion), not all of those non-starches are really sugars. Some of them are "higher dextrins." At the risk of going off on a tangent, here's what a normal wort that has been fully converted would contain:

- Glucose, a monosaccharide sugar that all brewer's Sacch yeast strains can use
- Fructose, a monosaccharide sugar that all brewer's Sacch yeast strains can use
- Sucrose, a disaccharide sugar that all brewer's Sacch yeast strains can use
- Maltose, a disaccharide sugar that all brewer's Sacch yeast strains can use
- Maltotriose, a trisaccharide sugar that almost all brewer's Sacch yeast strains can use, but to varying degrees
- Higher Dextrins, a group of low-ish weight carbs that are more complex than sugars and that most brewer's Sacch yeast strains cannot use

So, wort fermentability is essentially determined by the relative amounts of...
- Glucose+Fructose+Sucrose+Maltose <ferment all>
- Maltotriose <ferment some, but amount used is strain dependent>
- Higher Dextrins <most strains ferment none>

Maltotriose is normally where an individual yeast strain's tendency to be a high or a low attenuator comes in. e.g. why does US-05 attenuate more than WLP002, given the same worts? It's because it's better able to utilize maltotriose.

 

[doug293cz]

You wrote right in the end.

I brew BIAB and turn on the heater right after lifting the bag and I don’t do the mash out, but the one that sparges using the mash out stops the sugar extraction process.

Not sure what you are trying to say with the bold highlighted clause.

In the mash, most of the enzymes and the complex carbohydrates they are working on ("hydrolyzing" technically) are in the liquid wort, so heating the drained wort denatures the enzymes the same as if you heated the wort and the grain together. That's why heating as soon as draining has commenced (far enough so that you won't dry fire an electric element, or scorch the bottom of a flame heated BK) is equivalent to doing a traditional mash-out in the MLT. So, you are doing a mash-out, just not in the traditional way. It is not a separate process, but rather combined with the heat-up to boil.

Brew on