Is being an extract brewer such a bad thing?

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"Time is money"...

Not hobby time. Not for most hobbyists anyway. Unless you're making money from your hobby, time isn't money, it's just time. It may have a value, but it's not denominated in greenbacks.
 
RonPopeil said:
i really dislike this progressive approach to homebrewing. we're not riding crotch rocket motorcycles or shaving with straight razors.
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The nice thing about life is we're all different. Different skills, different natural talents. Are there people that can jump right into AG and make great beer? Sure. If you're one of those people, congratulations. But I would bet that there are many more who benefit from taking it one step at a time. Perfecting one aspect before moving on to the next. Just because you won’t die if you “F” up doesn’t mean taking a progressive approach is not the smart way to go.


Back on topic, I agree with Gordon. :D
 
It took me nine years before I went from Extract to All Grain. Alot of those years I did maybe one batch or less.

I regret not making the move earlier. It made me a better brewer, gave me the tools to be more creative in my brewing and I understood brewing SO much better.
 
I never thought brewing extract was "not really brewing". I told someone I just got into brewing and have done 5 extract batches thus far and their response was "oh, so you're just putting stuff in a pot and waiting."

I didn't quite like that nor did I see it that way. I've created two recipes from reading many and I feel like I do a fair amount of work. So f'em. I don't care. I don't make people feel badly for doing something different than me, that goes for brewing.

I will one day get into AG as I believe it is also less expensive overall but I like the idea of controlling my entire process.
 
To the OP: wonderful beers can and are made using extracts. I have tried 3 times to do a pumpkin spice all grain. I have not been happy. Last week I had what I consider a wonderful Pumpkin spice. It was extract. As far as AG cost, try looking up the threads for brew in a bag. That is what I have always done and see no need to invest in a mash tun, march pump, etc. You can make brewing as easy or as difficult as you choose. Everybody finds a subset of brew science that appeals to therm. I for one have never seen a need to do any water adjustments. Some do, because they choose to. Some people choose to do multi step infusions. I just raise the strike temp to 167, pop in the bag and grains, and find the temps setting at 155. Done.
 
I've just been brewing for less than a year (18 batches) but I started with PM/extract kits. I knew that I didn't want to bottle (too lazy) so I decided a good part of my initial investment was going into kegging. As I developed my brewing processes with a few kits and some of my own PM/extract recipes, I found that better fermentation control was important and I invested in a fermentation chamber.

I'm still enjoying the brewing process with PM/extract and I can brew a 5 gallon batch in the evening after work and don't have to dedicate one of my valuable weekend days to brewing. I can relax by the pool enjoying one (several) of my brews.

I'm thinking about working with BIAB and I'm sure that the investments I've made so far will help with that. However, I'm making good beer right now and really enjoy the process and the fruits of my labor. To me, the process is nice but the end result is what it's really about.
 
Thanks to everyone for their posts. I had some doubts about going AG as well, since to a rookie, a lot of it seems very overwhelming. I'm ok with extracts for now (successfully kegged an ESB and Pils that both tasted great), but will be going to a 5 gal stovetop BIAB setup eventually. That just seems like a logical step for me once I make the leap. I have my first 1 gal AG test fermenting now. Anxious to see how that turns out.
 
If you have ever read "Brewing Classic Styles", almost every recipe is extract, and every recipe has won awards. I think Jamil took the wind out of the sails of those who say that they can always taste an extract beer. But I like most what Jamil says in the forward (paraphrased): just like a great chef has to master the fundamentals, a brewer has to master the basics of brewing (which I think are sanitation, pitching rates, and fermentation temperature control, but others will add and remove from this list) before moving on to the next great thing!
 
DWhitwell said:
If you have ever read "Brewing Classic Styles", almost every recipe is extract, and every recipe has won awards. I think Jamil took the wind out of the sails of those who say that they can always taste an extract beer. But I like most what Jamil says in the forward (paraphrased): just like a great chef has to master the fundamentals, a brewer has to master the basics of brewing (which I think are sanitation, pitching rates, and fermentation temperature control, but others will add and remove from this list) before moving on to the next great thing!
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He converted all grain recipes to extract. Not the other way around.
 
There's nothing to be ashamed of in doing extract brews. I've tried extract and AG HB side-by-side and been unable to notice a difference in quality. You might lose some ability to fine-tune your grain schedule, but don't think you can't make awesome beers with extract. The time and equipment factors are worth considering too.
 
I often hear people making the "extract / cake mix" analogy, or something similar. I've even heard it said by people at the LHBS! Someone in this thread equated it to mac & cheese. These are flawed analogies. When you have cooked your macaroni or baked your cake, you're pretty much done. But when you have brewed your batch of wort, the fun has just begun. You have fermentation, kegging or bottling, conditioning, dry-hopping, etc. It's far more than just cooking up some ingredients.

That said, there are many people who make outstanding beers from extract. Some have even won awards. The dozen or so beers I brewed from extract had varied, but I had quite a few good ones. And the not-so good ones were lacking only due to my own mistakes, not because of what fermentables I used.

You are (hopefully) in this hobby for your own enjoyment. If you make good beer from extract, and you're happy with it, who are we to judge? Keep on doing what you like doing, and be the best damn extract brewer you can.
 
MaxStout said:
I often hear people making the "extract / cake mix" analogy, or something similar. I've even heard it said by people at the LHBS! Someone in this thread equated it to mac & cheese. These are flawed analogies. When you have cooked your macaroni or baked your cake, you're pretty much done. But when you have brewed your batch of wort, the fun has just begun. You have fermentation, kegging or bottling, conditioning, dry-hopping, etc. It's far more than just cooking up some ingredients.

That said, there are many people who make outstanding beers from extract. Some have even won awards. The dozen or so beers I brewed from extract had varied, but I had quite a few good ones. And the not-so good ones were lacking only due to my own mistakes, not because of what fermentables I used.

You are (hopefully) in this hobby for your own enjoyment. If you make good beer from extract, and you're happy with it, who are we to judge? Keep on doing what you like doing, and be the best damn extract brewer you can.
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I agree....I just recently brewed a dry irish stout extract recipe. The only thing I did different was add 1/4 cup of vanilla extract to the keg. I let it condition for a few days and damn...the best irsh stout I have ever made.

I am going to start with a 2.5 gallon all grain batch. I will do something simple like an American Amber Ale. I will use my Mr. Beer fermenter and bottle it when ready. If it comes out good then maybe I will step it up and do a 5 gallon batch. But first I will have to upgrade my kettle and convert my cooler into a mash tun.
 
highgravitybacon said:
He converted all grain recipes to extract. Not the other way around.
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And your point is...? Does that make it less significant? I don't think so. My point is brewing great beer doesn't require going to all-grain, it requires getting the basics right. That includes the right ingredients for the right styles.
 
Skarekrough said:
It took me nine years before I went from Extract to All Grain. Alot of those years I did maybe one batch or less.

I regret not making the move earlier. It made me a better brewer, gave me the tools to be more creative in my brewing and I understood brewing SO much better.
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Are you me? I started brewing in 2004, and did a total of 28 batches (including several meads and ciders) from 2004-2012. This year I discovered BIAB, and I've brewed 48 batches since January. I just built myself a "real" mashtun (toilet braid style) this month and I've enjoyed not having to lift and squeeze grain bags, and to be able to more easily do high-gravity beers.

For me I find the price difference between Extract and AG to be very important. I bought LME in bulk, but even so it's still much more expensive than buying grain in bulk, and SUCH A GIGANTIC PAIN.

My equipment outlays have been very modest - a 7.5-gallon kettle with a ball valve ($120), a Corona mill ($25), cooler + toilet braid + tubing + valve ($50). The money I've saved on ingredients has more than paid for the equipment.

There's nothing wrong with using extract, and you can certainly make very good beer with it (especially with some of the newer extracts out there). I find myself being more creative with AG, though, especially since I can brew on a whim when the inspiration strikes me, as I keep base malts, specialty malts, and bulk hops on hand.

I also find it much more relaxing - it probably only takes me an extra half-hour to an hour over extra + specialty grains, and I don't have to mess around with sticky extract.

Additionally, there are some kinds of beers you simply can't do with extract. You can't really do a proper dry stout since the flaked barley needs to be mashed. I brewed a Classic American Pilsner with pilsner malt and polenta, which came out about 2 SRM. (That one was not so relaxing, as stirring the cereal mash is a pain in the rear.)

Honestly, though, you know what keeps me coming back to AG? I absolutely LOOOOVE the smell of the mash, and the differences in the aroma between different malts are amazing. If somebody made mash-scented candles, I would buy them....
 
highgravitybacon said:
You do what you want and what works. I don't see brewing with extract as being worth the time, trouble, or money. The results, on a good day, are overshadowed by what you can produce with all grain.

Is making box mac and cheese really cooking?
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Yes - I feel the exact same way! That's why I grow all of my grain and hops myself, keep bees to make any brew requiring honey, grow corn to make dextrose from, knit my own grain bags, filter all my own water from a hidden mountain spring, and blow my own glass carboys and bottles. My next step is to mine minerals to make home-made bottle caps from.

I mean - if you aren't doing all of that, it might as well be Corn Flakes and milk, am I right? :rolleyes:
 
gfinockio said:
...

I mean - if you aren't doing all of that, it might as well be Corn Flakes and milk, am I right? :rolleyes:
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You have adequately expressed what I like to call "Endlessly sharpening the pencil". There will always be someone who can focus on some minute part of a process and expand it to outrageous complexity.

Do you grow your own hops? What strain?
What is your soil profile?
how often do you water, and how much?
how much sun?
What's your pruning schedule?
Fertilizer schedule?
Propagation schedule?
Do you use Companion Planting?
What time of day and year do you harvest?
What do you do with the harvested hops?
Do you use the hops immediately? Dry them?

There are people who will argue passionately and with great conviction, every one of those points, and a hundred more, swearing that you can't possibly be brewing decent beer if you don't adhere to their methods.

I'm just in this for a decent buzz and the oddity of telling people that I brew my own beer.
 
Or at the very least,brew good beer from what's commonly available. that's true "brewer's art". To make something uncommon from that which is common. chefs do it every day!:mug:
 
Rhumbline said:
I'm just in this for a decent buzz and the oddity of telling people that I brew my own beer.
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I'm pretty new to brewing, actually - I started with "partial" recipes, and I find that perfectly fine for me. But one of the best things is to tell people (who don't homebrew) that you brew your own beer / cider. They just *assume* it is really complex and time-consuming and dangerous (and illegal!), so they are instantly impressed. They've been even more impressed when I've had them sample my beer!

There is still so much process to brewing that I can't see how anyone can look at extract brewing and think it's not real brewing!
 
gfinockio said:
Yes - I feel the exact same way! That's why I grow all of my grain and hops myself, keep bees to make any brew requiring honey, grow corn to make dextrose from, knit my own grain bags, filter all my own water from a hidden mountain spring, and blow my own glass carboys and bottles. My next step is to mine minerals to make home-made bottle caps from.

I mean - if you aren't doing all of that, it might as well be Corn Flakes and milk, am I right? :rolleyes:
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Best post of the day :)
 
Ok I KNOW bulk is cheaper as long as you have storage, so walk through this with me. Single 5 gallon batch, hops same, yeast same cost wise (because if you reuse or have in bulk these costs are the same). Specialty grains the same, so we're talking base grains vs. extract as a base. From my local HBS 12 lbs 2-row American grain $14.40. 7lbs pale malt LE $20.65 So we're talking a savings of $6 a batch.. (yes, bulk bulk bulk, I know bulk can change the costs, but then add in storage, etc..) the cost savings is sort of a lie we tell ourselves. Yes, you save some money, but really it's like a buck fifty per hour extra spent. Bulk savings can increase that spread, but honestly if AG isn't saving me around $15-20 an hour for doing.. is it really saving me money in a significant amount to actually tell other people I'm saving money by doing it?


I know I can make great beer from extract, BIAB or AG because I can comprehend what I read and apply it to what I am doing. What I can't apply is equal time applied to all three methods. I just don't have that kind of time on a brew day to disappear for 6-7 hours to brew. I have a big yard, big house and lots of stuff to do besides my hobbies on weekends. 3 hours for extract brewing works for me cause I can do other things during the day that need to be done and keep my wife happy. 6-7 hours would be a different story. My wife would start getting pissed, things wouldn't get done and I would have to brew less often than I do now.

I know I can make great beer any which way I decide to. You get better at this as you go. The thing for me, the big thing for me, is I have other responsibilities to meet as well in my life, so extract is perfect and for the $1.50 an hour it costs me to use, it saves me a ton as I would have to pay somebody around $20 an hour to pick up what I didn't do while AG brewing.
 
lgilmore said:
Ok I KNOW bulk is cheaper as long as you have storage, so walk through this with me. Single 5 gallon batch, hops same, yeast same cost wise (because if you reuse or have in bulk these costs are the same). Specialty grains the same, so we're talking base grains vs. extract as a base. From my local HBS 12 lbs 2-row American grain $14.40. 7lbs pale malt LE $20.65 So we're talking a savings of $6 a batch.. (yes, bulk bulk bulk, I know bulk can change the costs, but then add in storage, etc..) the cost savings is sort of a lie we tell ourselves. Yes, you save some money, but really it's like a buck fifty per hour extra spent. Bulk savings can increase that spread, but honestly if AG isn't saving me around $15-20 an hour for doing.. is it really saving me money in a significant amount to actually tell other people I'm saving money by doing it?


I know I can make great beer from extract, BIAB or AG because I can comprehend what I read and apply it to what I am doing. What I can't apply is equal time applied to all three methods. I just don't have that kind of time on a brew day to disappear for 6-7 hours to brew. I have a big yard, big house and lots of stuff to do besides my hobbies on weekends. 3 hours for extract brewing works for me cause I can do other things during the day that need to be done and keep my wife happy. 6-7 hours would be a different story. My wife would start getting pissed, things wouldn't get done and I would have to brew less often than I do now.

I know I can make great beer any which way I decide to. You get better at this as you go. The thing for me, the big thing for me, is I have other responsibilities to meet as well in my life, so extract is perfect and for the $1.50 an hour it costs me to use, it saves me a ton as I would have to pay somebody around $20 an hour to pick up what I didn't do while AG brewing.
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I don't feel that I have time for a 6 to 7 hour day brewing either but I've found ways to speed things up to where it takes me about the same time to do all grain as it did when I did extract but I have way more freedom to experiment. You could learn my method and be brewing all grain next weekend.
 
I have been doing AG and now I am getting a bunch of extract for those weekends I feel lazy. Also good for smaller batches. Like, "how about chocolate pine nut bacon molasses popcorn bourbon IPA?" You might not want to start with 5 or 10 gallons.

Many prize-winners use extract. it is fine.

Extract costs more. It is more reliable. The organic local 2-row malted barley costs 2 $/lb, but that is exceptional stuff. Ordinary 2-row is 1 to 2 $/lb from the LHBS depending on quantity. A 50 lb sack of extract is about 2 $/lb. The extract at the LHBS is 4 $/lb, so I have been doing AG.

DWRAHAHB Rinse. Repeat.
 
QuercusMax said:
Honestly, though, you know what keeps me coming back to AG? I absolutely LOOOOVE the smell of the mash, and the differences in the aroma between different malts are amazing. If somebody made mash-scented candles, I would buy them....
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Just so you know I liked your post specifically for this ^^ as I could not agree more; probably the only scented candles I would buy- ever. Also I am a big fan of the genus Quercus! Are you a druid?

To the OP, if you're bored then it sounds like you have made up your mind. As many others have already stated here if you really want to go AG I highly advocate starting with small batch BIAB. I moved from PM brews to 2.5 gal AG BIAB and only had to buy a bag.

Before I had a full sized boil kettle I mashed in a cooler and boiled twice in my 4.5 gal kettle for a full 5.5 gallon batch- worked like a charm even if it took forever; made some great brew that way. Just something to think about.

I'm no psychologist... but again it seems as though you've made up your mind. You have slightly more than ten times the number of posts I do- you probably know both what you want and what you're doing. Are you just coming to us to convince you to go AG? :D
 
Lol, no I'm not a Druid. At my old house I had a ginormous oak tree, so I named my home brewery Quercus Maximus Brewing.

I highly recommend 2.5gal BIAB and/or 5 gallon partial mash. That's how I started my AG career. Even if you don't want to do full AG, you can do almost any AG recipe as a partial mash. You can use all those interesting grains like Rye, Wheat, Biscuit/Victory, Vienna, Munich, Honey Malt, Melanoidin malt, etc, and you can have some control over your wort fermentability via mash temperature. And you absolutely don't need extra equipment for that, except maybe a paint strainer bag.

But if you don't want too, that's still great. There are an awful lot of beers you can make with extract + steeping grains. And if you like pale ales/IPAs, you can absolutely make a killer one with extract.
 
prohl84 said:
I'm no psychologist... but again it seems as though you've made up your mind. You have slightly more than ten times the number of posts I do- you probably know both what you want and what you're doing. Are you just coming to us to convince you to go AG? :D
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Lol maybe :) Sometimes people need a little nudge to push them out of their comfort zone. I just wanted to see what the consensus was about this topic and how others moved into AG. I mainly want to save money while making good beer. Extract is expensive and my LHS has a good program for base grain in bulk. The problem is my fear of making un-drinkable beer, therefore wasting money rather than saving money.

You are correct, I've made up my mind. I am going to make a 2gal batch AG with my LBK and see how it goes. If all is good then I will invest in a 10gal pot and convert my cooler into a MT. My buddy brews all grain and he said he will help me and show me his method. I'm ready to progress in my hobby as far as extract vs AG. I've pretty much got a handle on other important aspects of brewing, such as yeast starters, fermentation temps, kegging, bottling, sanitation, etc etc.

Once I've become comfortable with AG it will be time to crack open the books and learn how to make recipes. That'll be fun for sure ;)

So far this thread has been successful. I was not expecting over 100 replies!! I thank everybody for their valuable input and encouragement. I learned that there are many ways to make it work, a little bit of debate is always good as well :)
 
Really, there is not a huge cost to move to all grain. You can go as big or little as you want. I made a wort chiller for $25 and my igloo mash tun (5gal) for $55. I started doing extract, then moved small batch 1 gal all grain and now do 2.5 gal all grain.

[2.5gal is enough for my needs] maybe one day when I have a full keg system in place I will go bigger, but for now I have a lot of fun doing all grain and working on perfecting the process and being creative with recipes.

sounds to me like you have out grown extract... all grain is calling you! as for crushing grains, I am lucky and the hbs I buy from will weight and crush em for me. if that is an option for you, go with it.

cheers.
John

ps. extract does make some fine brew - but all grain takes it to the next level.
 
Do what makes you happy. This is a hobby after all, right? I started out with all grain cause I liked the idea of starting with grain and ending with beer.
 
BansheeRider said:
I want to make the plunge into AG but I'm nervous about spending the money for new equipment and messing up large batches of beer. Extract brewing is so easy and boring, however I am pleased with the quality of beer I make. I will drink my beer any day over commercial beers.

Is extract brewing such a bad thing? The thought of missing my mash temps, not crushing grain good enough, not meeting expected OG, water chemistry, grain/water ratios, AG partial boils (I only have a 5g kettle), more equipment, adding an extra 1.5 hours to brew days, and overall just more room for error, really is racking my brain. Perhaps I should have started brewing AG and not even messed with the convenience of extract brewing.
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No. Extract makes a damn good beer.

AG is easy. Getting a good crush is the biggest thing. After that is the mashing. Both are easily achieved.

A half way right lhbs will be able to crush your grain just fine. If so, study what it looks like and if you buy or build a mill, jack with it until your crush looks like theirs.

Read Orfy's sticky in AG. You'll make a great beer. Once you're comfortable, start jacking around from there.
 
Zuljin said:
No. Extract makes a damn good beer.

AG is easy. Getting a good crush is the biggest thing. After that is the mashing. Both are easily achieved.

A half way right lhbs will be able to crush your grain just fine. If so, study what it looks like and if you buy or build a mill, jack with it until your crush looks like theirs.

Read Orfy's sticky in AG. You'll make a great beer. Once you're comfortable, start jacking around from there.
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I watched this YouTube video that shows the process and the brewer made it look super easy. Not sure why I even started with extract.
 
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Kinda funny..

OP: Is extract brewing such a bad thing?
General responses: No!! But AG is better and extract brewing is for p*ssies.
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Then comparing extract brewing to making mac and cheese. Brilliant. "Heat water. Add powdered mix. Boil." Last time I checked, that's exactly what you do with AG as well.

Brewing isn't brain science. We're making tea. Especially those of us who BiaB.. and don't worry, you 3v purists, I have the equipment and am more than capable of 3v brewing... I prefer BiaB. Just like I prefer AG to extract. In fact, anyone who is a successful extract brewer is a damn good brewer, in my book. I was never able to get extract brews to taste good. Any idiot can dump some grains in some hot water and get decent-tasting beer. But to get a good beer from extract takes some skill, IMHO.
 
I preached that sermon for a long time. Attention to detail is where it's at,regardless of brewing style. with so many extracts available now,it should be easy with a good process to make good beer with them. I love recombining them to make various styles when it comes to something like Cooper's cans & the other LME's available. DME's too can be recombined successfully with the LME's. With Vienna & Munich now available as LME's along with the others,you can stretch your imagination even further.
 
I find myself saying this quite often around here. I'd rather drink a brew made from extract where the brewer took steps to pitch the correct amount of yeast at the proper temp and carefully control the fermentation temperatures vs. an AG brew that was under-pitched (i.e., liquid yeast w/o a starter), pitched too warmly and/or fermented too warmly.
 

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