IPA's hate me

[Trufflepig]

Apparently IPA's hate me. This is now the second IPA in a row that doesn't seem to be going well. My previous one turned into a dicetyl nightmare at an OG of 1.092 (it was an imperial) and was undrinkable and unsavable and had to be dumped. That pissed me off so much I chose to modify the recipe and step it down a little to an OG of 1.075, modified the % to more closely resemble tried/true recipes. Mashed at 153 F, batch sparged at 168 F, boiled 60 mins - added the hops, and put the DME and Rice Solids in the last 15 mins of the boil. OG hit dead on per Pro Mash and the 1.5 qt/lb grains actually increased my efficiency about 3% above target.

The first 24 hours saw insane amounts of fermentation. There was about a 2 hour lag between pitch and krausen. The second 24 hours saw a much lower fermentation rate. Now I'm at the 3rd day - fermentation almost stopped. This is EXACTLY what happened with my Imperial --- very active then dead. My temp for both my Imperial and this batch I have now is steady between 65 and 70 F. My Imperial batch I pitched a Wyeast 1056 activator, which died quick. Nothing could save it even after I repitched new yeast and tried yeast nutrients. In this latest batch I pitched 2 dry packages of Safeale-04 in a 1 gallon starter which did amazingly well in that 1 gallon jug --- AND I pitched 2 packages of Nottingham per the pkg instructions.

After day 2 when the ferment started slowing I added some yeast food, swirled, and let stand in hopes it would kick into gear. Nothing. As I type this, I added another dry pkg of Nottingham and have a heating pad on the bottle on low in hopes this will work.

All the pitfalls I tried to avoid: I used fresh yeast. I stored the yeast properly. I used a digital thermometer for the mash and boil -- checked with an analog thermometer that I know is accurate. No contamination is evident and I made sure all was sanitized with both I/O and Saniclean. No funky smells are eminating from the fermenter. I just got done a Belgian which came out insanely well... I did a honey lager which came out great -- I finished up a Pumpkin which didn't have much pumpkin flavor but the ferment and ale taste very good with no issues on the ferment.... WTF am I doing wrong with these IPA's??? Why aren't they fermenting properly and why are they getting stuck? I'm using the same water, the same mashing and sparging techniques, the same everything and these IPA are just not working but everything else I brew is working.

Here's the recipe:


Recipe Specifics

Batch Size (Gal): 5.00 Wort Size (Gal): 5.00
Total Grain (Lbs): 13.00
Anticipated OG: 1.072 Plato: 17.58
Anticipated SRM: 6.6
Anticipated IBU: 154.6
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70 %
Wort Boil Time: 60 Minutes


Grain/Extract/Sugar
% Amount Name Origin Potential Color - SRM

7.7% 1.00 lbs. Muntons DME - Light England 1.046 5
53.8% 7.00 lbs. Pale Malt(2-row) America 1.036 2
7.7% 8 oz. Cara-Pils Dextrine Malt 1.033 2
7.7% 1.00 lbs. Rice Solids Generic 1.040 0
11.5% 1.50 lbs. Munich Malt(2-row) America 1.035 6
3.8% 0.50 lbs. Vienna Malt Germany 1.037 3
3.8% 0.50 lbs. Aromatic Malt Belgium 1.036 25
3.8% 0.50 lbs. Wheat Malt Germany 1.039 2
Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.

Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time

1.00 oz. Warrior Pellet 15.75 48.9 Mash H
1.00 oz. Columbus Pellet 14.75 65.4 60 min.
1.00 oz. Columbus Pellet 14.75 33.3 30 min.
1.00 oz. Glacier Pellet 6.00 7.1 15 min.
1.00 oz. Glacier Pellet 6.00 0.0 0 min.
3.00 oz. Glacier Pellet 6.00 0.0 Dry Hopping.

Yeast
White Labs WLP001 California Ale
Water Profile
Profile: Burton On Trent
Profile known for: Strong Pale Ales
Calcium (Ca): 268.0 ppm
Magnesium (Mg): 62.0 ppm
Sodium (Na): 30.0 ppm
Sulfate (SO4): 638.0 ppm
Chloride (Cl): 36.0 ppm
biCarbonate (HCO3): 141.0 ppm
pH: 8.33

1 Gallon starter Safeale 04 + 1 pkg. dry Nottingham

 

[Yunus]

If your at day 3 and the bubbles stopped I would wait until day 5 or 6 and then take a reading. The yeast can still be working even if you don't see activity in the airlock.

 

[Zymurgrafi]

Calm down first of all. It is gonna be okay.

Okay first off, just because the airlock has slowed and even if the kraeusen has fallen a 2 day vigorous ferment does not mean it crapped out! It may have attenuated mostly but it is likely still working. Relax.

The first batch how long did you give it? what is your time frame? I think you should not have dumped it. The diacetyl is strange considering you used 1056. What was the ferment temp? You REALLY need to pitch more than one pack especially if the OG was 1.092!!! Starter!

On this batch you said you made a starter with dry yeast. Do not do that. Dry yeast will suffer from making a starter. If I understand correctly you pitched 2 packs of S-04 in to a starter (no no) and THEN 2 packs of notty? Way too much. 2 packs of Notty alone would have sufficed.

Also, I would recommend ditching the rice solids next time, personally.

 

[david_42]

Pitch to fermentation in 2 hours implies zero yeast growth. How did you aerate? Yeast has to adapt to high gravity worts and no growth, no adaptation.

You say they both got stuck. What were the final gravities?

 

[CBBaron]

What is your FG?

You over pitched the yeast on this batch and i would expect a violent active ferment that finished in a couple days. It is very likely that this beer is basically done except for some cleanup and a couple more points.

S-04 is not a good choice for a higher gravity beer, especially one like an IPA where you want a lower FG as this yeast is lower attenuating. Notty is a good choice for an English style IPA though even this beer looks to be on the large size of that style.

I packet of Notty or US-05 would be sufficient yeast for the ferment. 2-packets is a very healthy pitch rate and would not be excessive. You pitched a total of 5 packets plus made a starter with 2 although the starter probably didn't help as there would not be enough food for the amount of yeast pitched into it.

If you want a nice dry IPA mash at 148F to 150F for about 90 minutes. Then you can add some corn sugar to dry it out even further. US-05 is a good yeast for American style IPAs. Nottingham is good for English styles. It sounds like your fermentation temps are good.

Craig

 

[wildwest450]

If you made a starter with dry yeast then pitched more dry yeast of a different variety on top of that, IPA don't hate you. You hate IPA's. And aeration isn't really a concern with dry yeast.

 

[flowerysong]

Why aren't they fermenting properly and why are they getting stuck?

How do you know it's stuck? All you've said is that visible fermentation has stopped, which (besides a stuck fermentation) could mean that the beer's finished or that it's still fermenting, but more slowly. Wait a couple of days, take a hydrometer reading. If the gravity is high, wait a week and take another. If it hasn't dropped, then you'll know you have a stuck fermentation.

And a couple of general notes. Firstly, don't make a starter with dry yeast. Either follow the manufacturer's directions for rehydrating or pitch directly into the wort. You already have a sufficient cell count and the yeast are already primed with reserves and ready to go for optimum fermentation activity, which is what a starter is intended to accomplish. It's unlikely that you'll improve their readiness, and highly probable that you'll deplete their reserves and actually hurt fermentation. B, if you care about consistency and repeatability don't pitch two yeast strains. The yeast are unlikely to cooperate and maintain the initial balance in population, so the contribution of each to the character of the beer will vary from batch to batch depending on which out-competed the other under this phase of the moon.

 

[Brew-boy]

Learn to make big healthy starters.

 

[flowerysong]

Learn to make big healthy starters.

Not for dry yeast, which is what he's using. (Wait, I feel like this has already been covered in this thread...)

 

[sirsloop]

no funky smells from the fermenter? What beer doesn't smell funky in the fermenter???? How did the beer taste?

 

[Trufflepig]

Calm down first of all. It is gonna be okay.

Okay first off, just because the airlock has slowed and even if the kraeusen has fallen a 2 day vigorous ferment does not mean it crapped out! It may have attenuated mostly but it is likely still working. Relax.

The first batch how long did you give it? what is your time frame?

It stopped active fermentation in 2 days... I gave it 7 days, took a gravity reading and it was 1.040 (OG was 1.092). I tried swirling and adding some yeast but nada. I pulled it into a secondary and repitched thinking that it's just stuck for another 5 days - no activity at all during those 5 days, another reading was the same - 40. I kept it there for another 3 weeks - constant temp., covered. FG was 1.040. Taste was strong butterscotch so much so 2 swallows and it was difficult to think about taking a 3rd.

I think you should not have dumped it. The diacetyl is strange considering you used 1056. What was the ferment temp?

Between 65-70 constant.

You REALLY need to pitch more than one pack especially if the OG was 1.092!!! Starter!

Yep, that's what I thought the problem was on the first one too - need a big starter.

On this batch you said you made a starter with dry yeast. Do not do that. Dry yeast will suffer from making a starter. If I understand correctly you pitched 2 packs of S-04 in to a starter (no no) and THEN 2 packs of notty? Way too much. 2 packs of Notty alone would have sufficed.

Ok - lesson learned. No dry yeast starters, but a double normal dry yeast addition would be acceptable for such a high gravity.

Also, I would recommend ditching the rice solids next time, personally.

Will do.

 

[Trufflepig]

Pitch to fermentation in 2 hours implies zero yeast growth. How did you aerate? Yeast has to adapt to high gravity worts and no growth, no adaptation.

You say they both got stuck. What were the final gravities?

I usually aerate using a drill & paddle --- this time I did 30 seconds of oxygen through a 5 micron stone, pitched, and did a short shake up after the pitch.

My imperial would not budge off of 1.040. This latest one I'm going to give a few more days and then take a reading.

 

[Trufflepig]

no funky smells from the fermenter? What beer doesn't smell funky in the fermenter???? How did the beer taste?

Mine smells great (of course it could be that I just really like all stages of beer!) but the initial taste before the ferment was nicely hoppy, sweet and smooth. I'll take a taste when I pull the reading in a few days and see. Right now it's dead stopped whereas this morning it was still bubbling a little (maybe every 10-20 seconds).

It's just wierd that I have issues with IPA's but everything else comes out great. I did a persimmon belgian with a 1.096 gravity and pitched the Abbey II and the FG in 6 days was 1.016.

 

[Yunus]

Any commonalities between this IPA and the last that are not common with your other beers? For example, is the hops from the same batch you made your first IPA with and you only use that hops for IPA's?

 

[jmo88]

I thought I was having issues with "stuck fermentations" when I started all grain. My first three batches finished at 1.024. That was less than 50% attenuation. Problem was that it wasn't stuck at all. It was done. I calibrated my thermometer in boiling water to find out that I was 12 degrees off. I was mashing at 164F instead of 152F. This resulted in too many long-chain unfetmebtable sugars. Between proper temp readings and appropriate water adjustments with salts, I am able to easily manipulate my FG. Well, maybe not easily but if you stick with one yeast, say notty for several batches, you can get to know it's unique qualities and manipulate the FG more easily.

Don't be angry. You are learning alot about your system that will result in better beer in the future.

 

[Trufflepig]

Any commonalities between this IPA and the last that are not common with your other beers? For example, is the hops from the same batch you made your first IPA with and you only use that hops for IPA's?

Actually - good point. The only thing that is the same with this batch and the Imperial that got stuck is the hops. I used the same hops from the same batch. I have used those hops in other beers, but not to this extent - it's 1 oz or possibly .5 oz. You thinking that the hops may have affected it somehow?

 

[Yunus]

Actually - good point. The only thing that is the same with this batch and the Imperial that got stuck is the hops. I used the same hops from the same batch. I have used those hops in other beers, but not to this extent - it's 1 oz or possibly .5 oz. You thinking that the hops may have affected it somehow?

I'm totally out of my league in answering why hops would cause stuck fermentation but I read at

Seven Bridges Cooperative Organic Home Brewing and Home Coffee Roasting
"Organic malts and hops have no chemical residues to interfere with fermentation to give the organic brewer a clean, unadulterated beer."

Which lead me to google "chemical residue on hops" which lead me to
Influence of Fungicide Residues on the Primary Fermentation of Young Lager Beer - Journal of Agricultural and Food Chemistry (ACS Publications)
"The effect of four sterol biosynthesis-inhibiting fungicides added to the pitching wort on the evolution of several organoleptic parameters during the primary fermentation of young lager beer was assessed. Pyrimidine (nuarimol and fenarimol) and triazole (myclobutanil and propiconazole) fungicides were individually supplied to the pitching wort to obtain a concentration of 1 mg/L. A marked influence in the fermentation rate was observed for the samples with propiconazole residues. From the fourth day onward, the fermentation prematurely ceased (stuck fermentation), and therefore, statistical significant differences were found in fermented extract, alcohol content, fermentable carbohydrates, pH, color, and total polyphenol and flavonoid contents of beer. Myclobutanil residues are only influenced in the total polyphenol and flavonoid contents, while differences in the analyzed parameters were not noticeable for the samples containing nuarimol and fenarimol residues in comparison with the blank sample."

Now as I said everything I just posted is greek to me. But maybe someone more in the know can tell me I'm wrong or maybe it will help lead you in the right direction. This study was done with lager beer but I wouldn't think it would matter lager or ale.

But if I were in your shoes I wouldn't do anything for another 3-5 days except RDWHAHB. After 5 days or so, take a reading and let us know what the status is.

 

[Trufflepig]

I'm totally out of my league in answering why hops would cause stuck fermentation but I read at

Seven Bridges Cooperative Organic Home Brewing and Home Coffee Roasting
"Organic malts and hops have no chemical residues to interfere with fermentation to give the organic brewer a clean, unadulterated beer."

Which lead me to google "chemical residue on hops" which lead me to
Influence of Fungicide Residues on the Primary Fermentation of Young Lager Beer - Journal of Agricultural and Food Chemistry (ACS Publications)
"The effect of four sterol biosynthesis-inhibiting fungicides added to the pitching wort on the evolution of several organoleptic parameters during the primary fermentation of young lager beer was assessed. Pyrimidine (nuarimol and fenarimol) and triazole (myclobutanil and propiconazole) fungicides were individually supplied to the pitching wort to obtain a concentration of 1 mg/L. A marked influence in the fermentation rate was observed for the samples with propiconazole residues. From the fourth day onward, the fermentation prematurely ceased (stuck fermentation), and therefore, statistical significant differences were found in fermented extract, alcohol content, fermentable carbohydrates, pH, color, and total polyphenol and flavonoid contents of beer. Myclobutanil residues are only influenced in the total polyphenol and flavonoid contents, while differences in the analyzed parameters were not noticeable for the samples containing nuarimol and fenarimol residues in comparison with the blank sample."

Now as I said everything I just posted is greek to me. But maybe someone more in the know can tell me I'm wrong or maybe it will help lead you in the right direction. This study was done with lager beer but I wouldn't think it would matter lager or ale.

But if I were in your shoes I wouldn't do anything for another 3-5 days except RDWHAHB. After 5 days or so, take a reading and let us know what the status is.

Hmm... it's greek to me as well but I'll try and find some more info on it and try to make some sense. I'll definately give an update on Jan 2 with the outcome. The other option here would be to ditch my recipe and hops and start with a new tried/true recipe, some new hops and hit it again. Good thing I got a $75 gift certificate to a local HB store from a very nice sister for Xmas.

 

[Yunus]

I've made Edwort's Stone clone many times, its a great IPA.