IPA sweetness or lack thereof!

[-Liam-]

I made an IPA a few weeks ago and decided to have a little taste today (granted, it's only 10 days into carbonation) but I'm a little unhappy. The aroma is great. The colour is great, and I think the body is right. But it doesn't quite seem to have the bit of sweetness or juiciness that I had hoped for. It's pretty bitter and feels a little too sharp and dry. This was also the first time that I had a tinker with my tap water, using minerals. My recipe was as follows...

12lbs 2 Row
1lb Crystal 10
12 oz Munich malt
4 oz Crystal 40
5.2 oz Acidulated malt

1 oz Warrior - 60mins
1 oz Falconer's Flight - 30mins
1 oz Amarillo Gold - 5mins
1oz Falconer's Flight - 0mins
2oz Amarillo Gold - Dry Hop

US 05 yeast

Mashed, light body @ 152
Sparged with water @ 185

OG 1.065
FG 1.010

Can anybody tell me what I might be doing wrong here? Should I mash higher? Are my ingredients wrong? Could it be my water profile?
Any advice is appreciated. I really thought that this was going to be the one!

 

[billl]

What did you do to your tap water?

BTW - that is above average crystal for an IPA, so you should the recipe isn'y dry by any standard. Did you calculate the IBU? I suspect you are pretty high for regular IPA levels. If you added gypsum etc, that could definitely come across sharp/bitter.

 

[Yooper]

The "bitter" comes from 1.5 ounces of bittering hops. The warrior especially has high AAUs, and I imagine your IBUs are quite high. If you run it through some free brewing software (I like brewer's friend), that will give you the IBUs. I would guess that your IBUs are very high, and even though you had quite a bit of crystal malt in the beer it wasn't enough to offset the high IBU/SG ratio.

Your water could definitely be a reason for "harsh" flavors. I assume the acid malt was to reduce the mash pH, so do you know your actual mash pH? How about the sparge water? Did you acidify that or use RO or distilled water for the sparge? Did you add gypsum? A high sulfate level definitely creates a "dry" beer in the feeling.

 

[mabrungard]

You didn't provide the projected IBUs for the recipe. That is what creates a lot of the balance. Maybe the bittering was excessive.

The pH of the kettle wort is an important factor. Although the description of the color suggests that the pH may have been OK, but its unknown. How was the acid malt addition sized? If the kettle wort pH was high, then the bittering could be rough.

Too little info to decipher.

 

[Weezy]

To piggy back on Yooper post, your bitterness is likely very high. That coupled with minerals and may have seen a low mash and/or finish pH giving you an especially sharp taste. Quick software check puts your IBUs near 100. 100 IBUs ÷ 65 gravity points puts you at over a 1.5 ratio. A ratio closer to 0.9-1.1 is more balanced for today's IPAs. Also, 5.2 oz of acid malt is about 3% of your ingredients. That's quite a bit.

 

[-Liam-]

I used EZ water calculator.
I treated my mash water and sparge water (batch sparge) to the following profile:

Ca 121
Mg 23
Na 15
Cl 52
SO4 266
Chloride/sulfate ratio 0.19

The estimated room temp mash PH was 5.40
According to Beersmith, my IBUs were estimated to 79.2
(I fermented at 67* btw)

 

[hophop]

Nothing in your recipe stands out as saying "sweet". 1 lb of caramel 10 and a few oz of c40. Combined with a relatively low mash temp will result a dryer, unmalty beer. IMO.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[Yooper]

I used EZ water calculator.
I treated my mash water and sparge water (batch sparge) to the following profile:

Ca 121
Mg 23
Na 15
Cl 52
SO4 266
Chloride/sulfate ratio 0.19

The estimated room temp mash PH was 5.40
According to Beersmith, my IBUs were estimated to 79.2
(I fermented at 67* btw)

Well, EZ always estimates high for me and that's why I no longer use it. It may have been off by quite a bit, and you may have had a low mash and kettle pH, but it's hard to say.

I know that many people like a higher sulfate level in pale ales, and I have a couple of recipes that are quite nice with the higher sulfate. But it does increase the perception of dryness, and I think the high IBUs compared to the OG and the high sulfate level contributed to the dry bitter flavor.

 

[mattd2]

What beer are you comparing this to, as my typical description of a IPA does not normally include "sweetness".
From what you have said with near on 80IBUs and finishing at 1.010 I wouldn't be expecting sweet.
My point is if the beer(s) you normally associate with IPA are on the maltier/sweeter/less bitter end of the scale, the beer you brewed will taste significantly different to them

 

[-Liam-]

So if I wanted to work with this recipe, and keep the IBUs in this ballpark and the colour about the same (6.4 SRM) but introduce a little bit of sweetness or juiciness, what would you recommend I do? Add more crystal? Higher mash temp or look at my water profile again? Or a combination of all?

 

[Calichusetts]

I like my beers sweet, much sweeter than most. I'd say you are spot on for the grain bill, 7% caramel malts get me there. I also prefer a bit of body so mashing higher can help with both. I am not a fan of low mash temps. I find them watery, I know its probably just me, but I hardly go under 152. 1.010 is a dry finish for my preferences, by far. 1.013 is sort of my limit if I want sweetness or if it doesn't go against the style. I even prefer higher than that.

Sorry this doesn't help. Everything up until the finish looks good in my book. You calibrate your thermometer lately?

 

[-Liam-]

My thermometer seems ok. Perhaps I'll try a slightly higher mash next time, with a similar grain bill. Maybe 154 and see how that works out?

 

[billl]

If you don't like the dry, sharp edge:

1) target a lower IBU
2) Use a really smooth bittering hop like Magnum - or consider first wort hopping
3) don't jack up the sulfates so high. I know that is what the historic style called for, but that isn't the type of beer you are going for.

If you normally don't have issues and just started messing with water chemistry, then that is probably most of your problem.

 

[-Liam-]

If you don't like the dry, sharp edge:

1) target a lower IBU
2) Use a really smooth bittering hop like Magnum - or consider first wort hopping
3) don't jack up the sulfates so high. I know that is what the historic style called for, but that isn't the type of beer you are going for.

If you normally don't have issues and just started messing with water chemistry, then that is probably most of your problem.

This was the first brew that I tinkered with my water and although it's far from perfect, it's definitely better than before. I realise that I'm going to have to experiment with that element of brewing and it will take some tweaking before I get it to the place that I'm happy with it, but I do feel I'm at least headed in the right direction. I will try magnum next time and tone down the IBUs and see what happens. A slightly higher mash temp also might help.

 

[novahokie09]

The beer finish is a mix of dry and/or sweet and is not dependent on the malt profile.

You can have a very malty beer with a dry finish. In fact, I prefer beers with dry finishes. I find sweet beers are typically under attenuated, full of crystal malt, or lacking IBU to balance the sweetness.

 

[-Liam-]

I guess I'm looking to achieve that fine balance, when the beer (AIPA) is dryad bitter enough but balanced with a juicy but not overpowering sweetness. I suppose trying to get this combination right, is where the art comes into brewing.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[Dogfishfire]

I do a Red IPA that has a great hop punch along with a decent sweetness to help balance it. I simply use 1# honey malt in the mash for a 5 gal batch. It's a citrusy IPA using cascade, Citra, and simcoe, dry hopped with bramling cross. Had someone say it reminded them of Sunny D, the orange drink. It wasn't actually that sweet, but similar flavoring


Sent from my iPad using Home Brew

 

[Yooper]

I guess I'm looking to achieve that fine balance, when the beer (AIPA) is dryad bitter enough but balanced with a juicy but not overpowering sweetness. I suppose trying to get this combination right, is where the art comes into brewing.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

I find that I like about 125 ppm of sulfate, with other minimal additions to my RO water (approx 40 ppm of chloride) to get that balance you're talking about. I'm not a fan of a lot of sulfate in my easy drinking IPAs, while others are. Maybe try that. Keep the recipe the same, mashing at 153ish, use a clean bittering hop like magnum, keep the IBUs under the OG, and use less sulfate.

What I mean by keeping the IBUs under the OG is that if your OG is 1.065, keep the IBUs under 65. That matters alot- it's called the IBU/SG ratio. If you don't want a firmly bitter IPA with that "edge" to it, definitely keep the IBU/SG ratio in mind!

 

[-Liam-]

I find that I like about 125 ppm of sulfate, with other minimal additions to my RO water (approx 40 ppm of chloride) to get that balance you're talking about. I'm not a fan of a lot of sulfate in my easy drinking IPAs, while others are. Maybe try that. Keep the recipe the same, mashing at 153ish, use a clean bittering hop like magnum, keep the IBUs under the OG, and use less sulfate.

What I mean by keeping the IBUs under the OG is that if your OG is 1.065, keep the IBUs under 65. That matters alot- it's called the IBU/SG ratio. If you don't want a firmly bitter IPA with that "edge" to it, definitely keep the IBU/SG ratio in mind!

I actually only discovered the IBU/SG ratio last night, after posting here. I hadn't known about it before and it seems very interesting indeed. I will take on board the advice and try out some of these suggestions.

 

[tootal]

I'm in agreement with several folks here. Raise your mash temp to 154 to 156. You're using 10L, 40L and 120L crystal. I think that's what you had. Anyway, next time just try to simplify with 60L. It's the sweetest of the crystal malts. I like using Marris Otter as my base malt since I too like that malt sweetness behind the hops. Magnum's are great bittering hops, I use them in stouts all the time. I'm afraid I'm pretty ignorant on water other than setting the ph.

 

[WayFrae]

I feel like you should have had less hops for the bittering addition and more late addtion hops to get the "juicy" hop flavor you are looking for. I would have also moved the 30 minute addition to 20 minutes.

 

[thegreatmaibockaddict]

I made an IPA a few weeks ago and decided to have a little taste today (granted, it's only 10 days into carbonation) but I'm a little unhappy. The aroma is great. The colour is great, and I think the body is right. But it doesn't quite seem to have the bit of sweetness or juiciness that I had hoped for. It's pretty bitter and feels a little too sharp and dry. This was also the first time that I had a tinker with my tap water, using minerals. My recipe was as follows...

12lbs 2 Row
1lb Crystal 10
12 oz Munich malt
4 oz Crystal 40
5.2 oz Acidulated malt

1 oz Warrior - 60mins
1 oz Falconer's Flight - 30mins
1 oz Amarillo Gold - 5mins
1oz Falconer's Flight - 0mins
2oz Amarillo Gold - Dry Hop

US 05 yeast

Mashed, light body @ 152
Sparged with water @ 185

OG 1.065
FG 1.010

Can anybody tell me what I might be doing wrong here? Should I mash higher? Are my ingredients wrong? Could it be my water profile?
Any advice is appreciated. I really thought that this was going to be the one!

You sparged with 185F water or was the mash at 185F? If you have great temp control, the mash and the sparge water should be at 168F. Hotter sparge water is fine if the mash is much cooler and losing its heat as you sparge.

Yes sparging so hot will cause astringency problems making the beer taste puckeringly dry.

 

[-Liam-]

You sparged with 185F water or was the mash at 185F? If you have great temp control, the mash and the sparge water should be at 168F. Hotter sparge water is fine if the mash is much cooler and losing its heat as you sparge.

Yes sparging so hot will cause astringency problems making the beer taste puckeringly dry.

My mash water was 152. I heated my sparge water to 185, dumped it in and stirred everything up. Took a temp reading and it said 168. I thought that would be pretty good as it didn't go over 170. The grain bed temp after first runnings was 138, I believe. Did I do something wrong?