Insurance Company Forbids Homebrewing!?

[SFBrewer]

After a new policy inspection the owner of my apartment building has been informed property insurance company beer may not be brewed anywhere in the building, including individual apartments. WTF? Is this legal?

As the resident manager I am charged with enforcing this. I brew, as do several of my tenants with whom I have friendships. I have asked for the specific reasons they will not permit it but can't get a straight answer.

In defense of the owner, they are very aware that this is a fun and safe hobby. In fact I give her sons beer from time to time...one of which is a Highway Patrol officer.

I know there are unreasonable and/or ignorant landlords out there but this is entirely different. Has anyone else come across this? For reference, the building is in SF, CA.

 

[Ike]

My first guess would be it's related to the use of burners. Lots of apartment buildings only allow propane grills on their decks, others ban grilling altogether due to the fire risk. This seems to be something along the same lines.

That said: I'm afraid that if you're hoping to go head to head with an insurance company, you're probably gonna lose. Ask to see the policy with the exclusion listed in writing.

Possible solution: you and all the others that brew onsite get together to rent commercial kitchen space once a month and have a brewfest. I guess you could also ban together and get the owner (with whom you seem to have a good relationship) to consider another insurer. BUT, that's gonna be a tough sell. You could all threaten to leave, but again, a tough sell and rough on the relationship with the owner.

 

[Turkeyshot]

What I don't understand is, what if you brew on your stove. How is your boil kettle on there any different then cooking a meal. It would be the same as making soup. I cannot see how they could ban you from that when homebrewing is legal. I could see it being a problem if it was a nuisance caused by the smell of brewing. Since it is based on a decision from an insurance company I fail to see how that can be done. Unless of course it has to do with open flames of propane burners.

 

[NVRsummer369]

Wow they might as well tell the tenants they are not allowed to cook dinner at home as well... I mean really it's not much different than grilling or making a pot of soup. The propane burner issue I could see as a fire hazard but that doesn't mean they can't ban someone from using the stove top indoors on a small batch? How would they even prove that anyone is violating this rule? I could see the problem with brewing a big RIS with no blow off tube ... that could lead to a big mess...screw all that I would be brewing even more I hate when people tell me I can't do my thing ..

 

[V-Fib]

As resident manager your in a tough spot for sure. I'd normally say just keep doing what your doing and run the risk of liability if something happens but in your position you shouldn't ignore something because you like doing it and enforce others.

 

[NVRsummer369]

Hah wow we pretty much had the same response at the same time there turkeyshot!

 

[burdbrew]

Is grilling banned?

This doesn't make a ton of sense to me (I work in insurance). You should enforce anything that is brought to your attention from your insurance company. That said, it's time to shop for a new insurer.

 

[PADave]

I'm sure it has something to do with burners. Who's going to know what you do on your own stove? Like said above, no different than cooking soup. If they can't give you an answer or won't change their policy, I'd look for a new insurer.

 

[woo_pig]

Rules are made to be broken.

 

[foam_top]

I'll reiterate what's already been said - the insurer must be under the assumption that all brewing uses propane, hotplates or other loose appliances. I would be civil about it but try to find it in writing and see if there's a loophole. Homebrewing itself can NOT be banned. Some people toss hopped extract right in the fermenter with water and yeast, in what way is that a safety issue?

Unless the insurer sees homebrewing as a drug lab... but that's a stretch.

 

[TasunkaWitko]

...the building is in SF, CA.

Absolutely no offense intended to you, but right there could be a lot of the problem.

I also work in insurance and, barring some local or state law that I am unaware of, it makes no sense to me, either. I would dig deep until you get some solid reasons grounded in law or policy language. I agree that you should be looking for a new insurance company.

 

[akthor]

Probably can't fry turkeys either. Or have waterbeds. Probably any activity that can start a fire or cause a flood. I can see the point in a multistory multi apt building. Sucks for sure.

 

[Murphys_Law]

Absolutely no offense intended to you, but right there could be a lot of the problem.

I also work in insurance and, barring some local or state law that I am unaware of, it makes no sense to me, either. I would dig deep until you get some solid reasons grounded in law or policy language. I agree that you should be looking for a new insurance company.

That was my first thought.

 

[MaxStout]

Ask for a copy of the carrier's policy info. You will need to carefully read the language of the exclusion clause(s). The wording is important. If it just says "homebrewing" or the like, then that could be applied broadly to any means of brewing. It won't matter to the insurance carrier what you use--gas burner, electric brewing, stovetop--if there is a damage claim, they won't pay.

 

[SFBrewer]

quick reply, thanks for all the ideas/direction...without pushing too hard I will see if I can get a copy of the policy or have her inquire on the exact wording of the exclusion clause. Though, to be honest, I've been pretty vocal already...whiny might be more accurate.

 

[soccerdad]

Probably can't fry turkeys either. Or have waterbeds. Probably any activity that can start a fire or cause a flood. I can see the point in a multistory multi apt building. Sucks for sure.

Or cook meth. Bummer.

 

[GPP33]

I'd resign from being "resident manager" and then keep it low key. If you brew outdoors with a burner you just might need to move. That's the down side of living in high occupancy housing, everyone needs to play by the rules that keeps even the dumbest ******* safe.

 

[seefish]

My insurance policy doesn't allow pit bulls...although disappointed I don't take that as them being forbidden, only that they are not covered under the policy and therefore at your own risk. Is that wrong?

 

[Magnus314]

Just tell your resident brewers to close their door before they brew. If you don't see it, you can't be sure they brewed it on premises, and thus can't enforce it.

 

[Ed-Wort]

Stop home "brewing" immediatley and start making sweet barley malt "soup"... that you leave out in a carboy to cool for a week or two. Don't forget to put in some yeast, as I have heard that that makes it very tasty.

 

[bobeer]

Harsh bud for sure, man. I'd probably move once my lease was up. Pita for sure but at least you'll be able to live how you want to.
I dig the idea of resigning as resident manager and keeping on the down-low until you can move. Unfortunately battling with property management and insurance companies usually ends up with you getting screwed. I've been there before many years ago and i ended up on probation, heh.

If it were me id brew half batches on my stove and not tell anyone.
Good luck!

 

[brick_haus]

Wow

 

[applescrap]

Sorry to hear. As stated, you need to see the policy. Is this a general clause or was this written in as an exclusion. Interestingly enough I have read on this form a story of somebody who flooded their apartment building. The flood and the burner are the issues. Usually I think stove top Brewing is allowed. Specially because you love barley soup. I wouldn't think the owner would have a problem showing you. I mean they're telling you and your friends what you can do in your home and you would just like to make sure how it was worded. And also you would like to follow up with the insurance company to considered two and a half gallon batches on the stove. And if you've lived there for a while and really don't want to move, and you have also brewed for a while, I don't see the problem in researching case law. It's nothing personal you are just researching what is legal and just for your situation. My two cents best wishes.

 

[augiedoggy]

What I don't understand is, what if you brew on your stove. How is your boil kettle on there any different then cooking a meal. It would be the same as making soup. I cannot see how they could ban you from that when homebrewing is legal. I could see it being a problem if it was a nuisance caused by the smell of brewing. Since it is based on a decision from an insurance company I fail to see how that can be done. Unless of course it has to do with open flames of propane burners.

To be fair I could see where a lot of people brewing in their kitchen would have issues with steam and condensation, if it really was a small batch thet you could brew on the stove like cooking they wouldnt know nor would they bother you is my thought... the policy is likely to discourage issues they have had to see in the past to have the policy in the first place.. loud music is legal too... try doing that all day in an apartment complex.. what about owning pets? they can exclude whatever they want man your living in their building under their roof... This is one of the reasons independent people often buy their own place.

 

[Thorsbrew]

To be fair I could see where a lot of people brewing in their kitchen would have issues with steam and condensation, if it really was a small batch thet you could brew on the stove like cooking they wouldnt know nor would they bother you is my thought... the policy is likely to discourage issues they have had to see in the past to have the policy in the first place..

Steam and condensation? Then what about pasta? Or anything else.

Also.....thats what vent hoods are for.

But yeah this sounds pretty stupid. They can't know if you just do small scale in your kitchen.

But thats also why i'll never live in california. Heard lots of ridiculous stuff like this

 

[augiedoggy]

Steam and condensation? Then what about pasta? Or anything else.

Also.....thats what vent hoods are for.

But yeah this sounds pretty stupid. They can't know if you just do small scale in your kitchen.

But thats also why i'll never live in california. Heard lots of ridiculous stuff like this

I dont usually boil 5 gallons of pasta for an hour do you? 90% of home brewers make more than 2.5 gallons at a time... the policy isnt going to go into specifics...

 

[Redlantern]

Interesting -

I can see a lot of concern regarding steam, smell, spilling 7 gallons of wort with the subsequent insect problems (ants loving sugar), but at the same time the act of brewing itself does not present any unique inherent problems.

As was mentioned earlier, you could run into the same problems with pasta, jam or any number of items.

I would love to see the rationale for this. Probably an unimaginative way of preventing propane boiler use.

Granted, brewing does throw off a lot of odor, but then so does a lot of Middle-Eastern cooking. Try to ban that.

 

[Brownalemikie]

Hmmm, maybe the insurance company is using outdated bylaws in their policies. The Feds legalized home brewing in 1978....is it possible that the insurance company hasn't updated/removed obsolete bylaws since 1978?

If OP and other residents are brewing small batches on their stove-top, I would just continue and keep thy mouth shut......but that's just my opinion.

If I recall correctly, landlords can not enter your premises without your permission or a warrant.

 

[Steveruch]

Does the lease/rental agreement say anything about it?

 

[MaryB]

I can boil 5 gallon batches of extract on my gas stove in the kitchen. In fact I may do that tomorrow since it is to cold to run the garden hose to the garage to brew... it is an extract kit that was free so I can get away with partially covering the kettle to bring it to a full boil! I really need to bury a water line to the garage...

 

[Thorsbrew]

I dont usually boil 5 gallons of pasta for an hour do you? 90% of home brewers make more than 2.5 gallons at a time... the policy isnt going to go into specifics...

Specifics? It was an analogy.

Ok sure you dont boil for that long but it was just an example. Doesnt change the fact that that is what a vent hood is for...

Until we know what the wording is the only thing i've heard so far that makes any sense (as many of the other examples can be compared to any number of cooking related items) is the propane. In which case that should apply to bbq's too, but only homebrewing was mentioned so again, not seeing the sense.

I can boil 5 gallon batches of extract on my gas stove in the kitchen. In fact I may do that tomorrow since it is to cold to run the garden hose to the garage to brew... it is an extract kit that was free so I can get away with partially covering the kettle to bring it to a full boil! I really need to bury a water line to the garage...

You can? wow. I dont know how much more power a gas stove has but my electric stove took like 1.5-2 hours (if i remember correctly) to bring ~4 gallons of water to a boil while my propane burner took 20 or 30 minutes.
Which i suppose means its technically possible but boy does it take a lot longer.

 

[augiedoggy]

Specifics? It was an analogy.

Ok sure you dont boil for that long but it was just an example. Doesnt change the fact that that is what a vent hood is for...

Until we know what the wording is the only thing i've heard so far that makes any sense (as many of the other examples can be compared to any number of cooking related items) is the propane. In which case that should apply to bbq's too, but only homebrewing was mentioned so again, not seeing the sense.

It has everything to do with it though and why your analogy is comparing apples to oranges though dont you think? When you boil a large amount of liauid as vigorously as you would for that long, the exhaust fan (If its even an outside vented one because many are just a metal filter that recirculates) wont be able to catch it all and the condensation builds up all over the walls..

I used to manage and do all the maintenance on an apartment building along with some houses and Ive seen the mess it can make even when someone just happens to like to do a lot of cooking that requires boiling for long periods.

Many apartment building have rules against things like even charcoal grills (or thier own grills at all) outside or having a satellite dish because its unsightly... Those of use who dont have these restrictions think its horrible but its just a tradeoff to letting someone else own,manage and maintain the property which they are renting and can walk away from.

Remember when a person could legally ride in the back of a pickup? There are a lot of neighborhoods were even if you OWN your house you are not allowed to do what you want with it... I cant build a pole barn even though I have a large double lot. On some streets you have to use concrete and not blacktop to pave your driveway or choose your house and roofing color from a predetermined group of colors. In the city next to me its illegal to hang your clothes on a clothesline to dry because people complained and said it was unsightly... It sad but its what this country and world is coming too Because its usually the intolerant narrow minded, snobs or people with money that make these rules happen.

The bottom line here is the insurance company made the rules for a reason... The most likely reason is homebrewing has already cost them enough loses in claims for them to change the policy... That or someone complained enough about the smell that the owner had them add it. Many peoples wives wont let them brew inside for the same reasons.

 

[Thorsbrew]

It has everything to do with it though and why your analogy is comparing apples to oranges though dont you think? When you boil a large amount of liauid as vigorously as you would for that long, the exhaust fan (If its even an outside vented one because many are just a metal filter that recirculates) wont be able to catch it all and the condensation builds up all over the walls..

I used to manage and do all the maintenance on an apartment building along with some houses and Ive seen the mess it can make even when someone just happens to like to do a lot of cooking that requires boiling for long periods.

Many apartment building have rules against things like even charcoal grills (or thier own grills at all) outside or having a satellite dish because its unsightly... Those of use who dont have these restrictions think its horrible but its just a tradeoff to letting someone else own,manage and maintain the property which they are renting and can walk away from.

Remember when a person could legally ride in the back of a pickup? There are a lot of neighborhoods were even if you OWN your house you are not allowed to do what you want with it... I cant build a pole barn even though I have a large double lot. On some streets you have to use concrete and not blacktop to pave your driveway or choose your house and roofing color from a predetermined group of colors. In the city next to me its illegal to hang your clothes on a clothesline to dry because people complained and said it was unsightly... It sad but its what this country and world is coming too Because its usually the intolerant narrow minded, snobs or people with money that make these rules happen.

The bottom line here is the insurance company made the rules for a reason... The most likely reason is homebrewing has already cost them enough loses in claims for them to change the policy... That or someone complained enough about the smell that the owner had them add it. Many peoples wives wont let them brew inside for the same reasons.

Ok so you've made a case for absurdity. I'll stick to my original idea (that i'd do at least) as others have mentioned too...stick to small stove top batches and they'll be none the wiser.

 

[augiedoggy]

Ok so you've made a case for absurdity. I'll stick to my original idea (that i'd do at least) as others have mentioned too...stick to small stove top batches and they'll be none the wiser.

Oh I agree that if he just made it on the stove there wouldnt be an issue. In fact I wonder how it even got brought up to be an issue? was the OP trying to use the 208v plug in the laundry room to brew with electric? Or did he approach the landlord with some sort of request for home brewing or did he just stink the place up enough where a neighbor is complaining?

 

[Texconsinite]

If it's not in your lease, then it doesn't matter what your landlord's insurance says. You didn't sign a contract with their insurance company, you entered a rental agreement with the landlord. If it's not in the rental agreement, I wouldn't change anything I'm doing.

 

[SFBrewer]

To address all the speculation, my situation is fairly specific. I have access to a legally unusable apartment (for tax reasons) which is a workshop, storage and "tradesman bathroom" for the building as well as my modest brew space. Never a problem or concern prior. This situation came out of the property owner changing insurance companies. They sent an inspector out who asked to see the space. Saw the gear, had a discussion about it, to which he replied that shouldn't be a problem at all. That's where this all went south. Hoping to get a copy of the policy with the exclusion language to review this week.

 

[BudBernerBrewer]

welcome to the communist republic of california, it stars there and then spreads. like smoking bans, ect. tex is on to something. if it isn't in the lease it's unenforceable. i managed apts up the road in the wine country. 30 day notice to change anything if month to month, which usually is in cali because of professional scam artists that take months to remove if leased. notice for others to not let inspectors see your gear if you rent...i feel for ya buddy

 

[SFBrewer]

welcome to the communist republic of california, it stars there and then spreads. like smoking bans, ect. tex is on to something. if it isn't in the lease it's unenforceable. i managed apts up the road in the wine country. 30 day notice to change anything if month to month, which usually is in cali because of professional scam artists that take months to remove if leased. notice for others to not let inspectors see your gear if you rent...i feel for ya buddy

On some level, yes the lease agreement is the guiding star here. However, I am an employee of the building, not a tenant. Therefore, I have limited rights. Further, I have to enforce the wills/desires of the owners to the best of my ability as unless I want to lose my home and displace my family. Not to mention the rather unappealing job hunt.

Regardless, I don't think that banning a legally permitted practice is enforceable. My suspicion is that if for some reason it actually went to court for any reason the insurance company policy would be declared inapplicable/unreasonable. I already spoke with my renters insurance company and my liability insurance covers any damage that I or my stuff could cause. Doesn't seem to matter to the property insurance company.

Sadly, it's not a battle I can fight even if I wanted to, my resources are limited.

Still believe the best course is to play find the loophole for now.

 

[kh54s10]

I see the word "banned". An insurance company cannot ban anything. They can however refuse to pay out on a claim for damage due to homebrewing. Cancel a policy to save themselves from claims. Etc.

If a person brews in the apartment building and no one is around to see it, has anything been brewed?

 

[SFBrewer]

Yes, banned was poor choice of words.

Not sure about the brewing koan...perhaps I'll ask that guy waving one hand in the air.