Insights on BJCP judge comments (not hating!)

[Piratwolf]

Got two comments from a competition this weekend that I'm hoping you all can help me understand. And I'm really interested in understanding, not beyatching--I just passed the written exam and want to understand as much as possible.

1. My Saison won 1st out of 41 entries in Belgian/French category with a mere 35. It would have been a much higher, apparently, but the final comment said the beer finished with an overwhelmingly SALT flavor. What could possibly cause beer to taste like salt?

2. On the comments for mouthfeel, the main comment was "pretty good mouthfeel for style" and every other comment was positive... But I got a 2 out of 5. Any thoughts on how that works (aside perhaps from the top-down scoring method where the judge decided it's a 35 beer and has to make the sections fit)?

All that aside, I want to give some serious props to the BURP club and the Spirit of Free Beer competition. The judging of 500+ entries was on Sat., May 12 and the results were posted online by Sunday morning. Moreover, I got my scoresheets (scanned and emailed) via e-mail TODAY!! Very constructive feedback! They really have their game tight!

--pirat

 

[brettwasbtd]

Congrats on the 1st place! I def know what you mean about comments not always matching up the numerical values. I received an honorable mention for my english mild and I got 2 out of 3 on appearance, yet the comments were "extreme clarity and nice off-white head." I feel like I never get a 3 out of 3 there?

I hadn't thought about it, but the "top-down" scoring method could be the culprit. So far my experience with this competition is that the judges tend to score on the lower side (but its equal for everyone).

It is absolutely one of the best comps as far as organization and getting results back. Def a competition I plan to enter yearly

 

[bumstigedy]

Did you make any water adjustments? If so that could have resulted in the perception of a salt flavor.

 

[bchurch]

It's hard to say what he meant, maybe his palate was tired after a long flight, I just had a score sheet come back for an Irish red that read like the Damn bjcp handbook but got a 35 and didn't place. At the end of the day it's all subjective. I would try to enter some others to get a couple more opinions.

 

[Homercidal]

On the "Pretty good mouthfeel" comment, perhaps what they meant to say was that there was a fair amount of mouthfeel, which I think is not exactly to style for a saison.

You can't judge your beer's judging on a single entry. You should gather multiple sources of judgement. Maybe several competitions and having other craft beer drinkers give it a try.

Anything can happen on the day of judging, from being a higher number in the flight, to distractions or simply just poor tasting. Maybe the judge ate some salted crackers just before your beer. That one judge may have a sensitivity to that flavor.

Did you treat your water? It's entirely possible that you added too much of some mineral or other. However, you should be able to taste that same beer and notice if it tastes salty. Or have someone else try it. Salt is not one of the more difficult flavors to sense IMO.

 

[Darwin18]

Did the judges list their contact information on their scoring cards? You could always email them and ask them directly. I'm planning on taking the online test in the next few weeks and then hopefully getting into the written test.

 

[stubbornman]

My favorite is on Appearance:

Appearance (as appropriate for style)
Comment on color, clarity, and head (retention, color, and texture)

Appropriate color and clarity, good head retention... 2/3


Judges just feel like they can't give out a 3/3 on appearance for some reason. Seems more prevalent among uncertified judges too?


/hijack

 

[ArcaneXor]

Judges just feel like they can't give out a 3/3 on appearance for some reason. Seems more prevalent among uncertified judges too?

The three beers I entered into NHC each got one 2 and one 3 on appearance.

 

[Darwin18]

A 3/3 would indicate that the appearance is world class and needs no improvement. In most beers there is always room for improvement, even it's just a little bit.

 

[AmandaK]

I try and always be consistent with my numbers (as well as with my comments) but we are all drinking while we're judging, so that adds a bit of difficulty.

Back on topic though, I have a lambic that has won BOS, 3rd BOS, gold, gold, gold, blue ribbon and is going to the second round of the NHC and it has NEVER scored higher than a 39. Even at the Chicago NHC, I received high scores throughout the sheet (e.g. 10/12, 3/3, 17/20, 4/5) and then got a 5/10 on the Overall Impression. 39. Really? Not an 8/10 like your other scores would suggest? At any rate, it won sours and I got good feedback, so I can't really complain. Sometimes the numbers just baffle me too.

 

[brettwasbtd]

A 3/3 would indicate that the appearance is world class and needs no improvement. In most beers there is always room for improvement, even it's just a little bit.

Thats fine, but then the judge should state what is need to the 1 point improvement...don't comment on the color, head, and clarity as if it was pulled directly from the guidelines and then give a 2. Just my opinion. I am working towards becoming a Judge and I def think I will be trying to base the beer on its overall impression and how it relates to the guideline, not hunting and pecking to find little things wrong (which i think some judges do).

Jamil talks often about judging on the Brewing Network and he is an advocate for give points where they are deserved. As long as you are consistent your judging it isnt a problem cause it will equal out. Sometimes i think judges are just scared to give scores above the mid 30s unless it is a beer close to a 50, and then they still only give like a 40 haha

 

[BryceL]

I always try to make notes on my beer when it is cold from the fridge and also when it warms up a bit. I made some notes on my Imperial Rye IPA that lined up perfect with the judges comments regarding appearance. I have a feeling one was tasting it cold and the other when it warmed up a bit. I ended up getting a 41 on this beer and not placing. Here are the comments for appearance:

Judge#1: Copper color, good clarity, head retention somewhat low. 3/3

Judge#2: Deep amber color, tan head-quite persistent, hazy. 2/3

I have a feeling judge#1 had it once it warmed up a bit.

 

[AmandaK]

A 3/3 would indicate that the appearance is world class and needs no improvement. In most beers there is always room for improvement, even it's just a little bit.

I'm of a differing thought process here. A 3/3 in appearance would mean that the beer looks like it is within the style guidelines. I regularly give 3/3 on appearance (if it looks like the BJCP defines the style). I give 2/3 if it has one flaw out of the three (color/clarity/head), and 1/3 if two flaws, etc. I see no reason to ding a beer on appearance if it looks like it should.

Now, a 45-50 score overall would indicate a world class beer with little room for improvement. I've only had 3 of those, and I always ask for the recipe.

 

[bchurch]

I'm of a differing thought process here. A 3/3 in appearance would mean that the beer looks like it is within the style guidelines. I regularly give 3/3 on appearance (if it looks like the BJCP defines the style). I give 2/3 if it has one flaw out of the three (color/clarity/head), and 1/3 if two flaws, etc. I see no reason to ding a beer on appearance if it looks like it should.

Now, a 45-50 score overall would indicate a world class beer with little room for improvement. I've only had 3 of those, and I always ask for the recipe.

+1 that is how I would do it. Some styles have a decent amount of wiggle room when it comes to appearance but a lot of judges have a classic example in mind which may be to one extreme of the guidelines and knock a point off yours for not being what they perceive as to style, even if it follows the guidelines set by the bjcp.

 

[AmandaK]

+1 that is how I would do it. Some styles have a decent amount of wiggle room when it comes to appearance but a lot of judges have a classic example in mind which may be to one extreme of the guidelines and knock a point off yours for not being what they perceive as to style, even if it follows the guidelines set by the bjcp.

That's why I really don't like doing calibration beers before a comp. Nor do I like to think of a particular "classic example" in mind before I judge a style. I much prefer to read aloud the "Overall Impression" from the guidelines and then go from there. Do I love Fantome Saison D'Erezee - Printemps? Absolutely! But am I going to judge every saison by that standard? Seems quite unfair, so no.

I also prefer to have an "off flavor calibration" before a comp. We had a really good one for the KC Biermiesters' comp back in February led by a retired AB chemist. Really good information.

 

[Homercidal]

Appearance is easy. I'd give 3/3 if it looked right. Good head, proper clarity, proper color, etc. It doesn't make sense to me that a point was knocked off and no reason given. There are only 3 points possible, so taking away 1/3 of the points and not explaining why is lame.

 

[weirdboy]

For what it's worth the comment "good mouthfeel for style" should not be on a well-written scoresheet, at least not in the "mouthfeel" section. Comments are supposed to be informative and detailed, and since there is little space (and time) to waste while writing one, a meaningless sentence like that is just useless filler. The fact that specific comments about color, clarity, and head did not reflect the scoring also is a sign of a poor judge, IMO. Or maybe they were just drunk...

 

[AmandaK]

For what it's worth the comment "good mouthfeel for style" should not be on a well-written scoresheet

Agreed. What is "good"? To thick? To thin? Slimy? Not slimy? Astringent? Not astringent? Some less experienced judges will comment on mouthfeel and not body, which is not accurate. Body is a part of mouthfeel.

I would rather it say something to the effect of "Med. light body, mod. carbonation, not creamy, not astringent, no alcoholic warmth. Good to style. 5/5"

 

[Piratwolf]

Thanks for all the replies! It's reassuring to hear that others have taken 1st with below-40 beers!

As for the salt taste, I tried one of my saisons last night to judge for myself. To me it's sort of like that final flavor you get from a pink grapefruit--I wouldn't call it salty although I can see where he's coming from. Maybe a bit like salt water? I think the comment about his palate being salt-sensitive is probably right on target.

Thanks especially to AmandaK and other BJCP judges for giving your approach. I like to have a philosophy for doing things, and your suggestions are helping me form that for my future judging!

All in all, I'm pretty happy. Only been brewing 16 months and 3 of my 4 entries scored 35+ and went on to mini-BOS. Plus, getting 1st in the SOFB comp qualified me for the MCAB next spring. I give a lot of credit to HBT. The amount of knowledge and the spirit of sharing and debate here is amazing!

 

[Beerrific]

Sounds like the judge that gave you the 2/5 with a "good mouthfeel for style" comment is just a bad judge. I would disregard.

Enter the saison in to some more competitions, if there are more comments about "salt" then worry. Otherwise, shrug your shoulders and move on.

 

[Beerrific]

A 3/3 would indicate that the appearance is world class and needs no improvement. In most beers there is always room for improvement, even it's just a little bit.

3/3 does not mean it is world class. 45-50/50 on the beer does. I do not think extending the same rating system to each individual constituent is warranted. You can have a beer that is 100% perfect beer in terms of color and have a horrible taste...13/50.

 

[Spartan1979]

For what it's worth the comment "good mouthfeel for style" should not be on a well-written scoresheet, at least not in the "mouthfeel" section. Comments are supposed to be informative and detailed, and since there is little space (and time) to waste while writing one, a meaningless sentence like that is just useless filler. The fact that specific comments about color, clarity, and head did not reflect the scoring also is a sign of a poor judge, IMO. Or maybe they were just drunk...

I'd agree if it's the only comment. The OP said there were other positive comments but didn't go into detail.

 

[Piratwolf]

Mostly I'm just wondering how a salty taste emerges (if it's not water) in beer.

The whole comment was: "Good for style--not overly cloving [sic]. Dry finish. Not too alcoholic." 2/5. What's more strange is the other judge gave it 5/5 for mouthfeel, but is the one who dinged it for saltiness.

Like I said in the title, I'm not hating. I'm thrilled. Just trying to understand so I can make better beer!

 

[brewhappy]

Congrats on the 1st. My Saison took 2nd! Can't help you on the salt comment.

I wanted to throw out a question for everyone here too. Does anyone else get completely opposite comments from judges? I have had differing comments on almost every scoresheet, which makes it really hard to improve your recipe. For example, one judge will say no hop aroma and the other will comment on how nice the hop aroma was. Or one will say it's too bitter and the other says to include more battering hops.

I thought it was odd a few times but after 2 years, many different beers and many different comps, I'd estimate that 75% of my scoresheets have opposing comments. Anyone else notice this?

 

[Piratwolf]

Congrats on the 1st. My Saison took 2nd! Can't help you on the salt comment.

I wanted to throw out a question for everyone here too. Does anyone else get completely opposite comments from judges? I have had differing comments on almost every scoresheet, which makes it really hard to improve your recipe. For example, one judge will say no hop aroma and the other will comment on how nice the hop aroma was. Or one will say it's too bitter and the other says to include more battering hops.

I thought it was odd a few times but after 2 years, many different beers and many different comps, I'd estimate that 75% of my scoresheets have opposing comments. Anyone else notice this?

How cool that HBT taking the medals! Cheers to you, sir!

It's only my 3rd comp, butihave noticed some real contradictions as well. Not so much from NHC but from the two regional comps. Interesting.

 

[bumstigedy]

Just got some scoresheets back in the mail. Got dinged due to oxidation. The judges comments were that this is due to hot side aeration or splashing during transfer to secondary. Well I didn't do a secondary and I'm not sure hot side aeration makes that big of a deal. The oxidation is likely because I mailed the bottles from D.C. to Boston and they got hot.

 

[Cellarbrau]

I'd say 3-6 hours of tasing and discussing with knowledgable mentors per style will get you up to good level of expertise. Plus you need a strong knowledge of brewing to begin with. Then you need to have the skills to comunicate through the score sheet and the discipline to be consistent.

It's not an easy thing.

 

[buffalobrewer]

One thing to consider is when your beer was judged. If it was judged early in the flight you have to remember that your beer is "setting the standard" for the flight. Room has to be left if a spectacular beer (or 6) comes after yours for a higher score.

 

[brettwasbtd]

One thing to consider is when your beer was judged. If it was judged early in the flight you have to remember that your beer is "setting the standard" for the flight. Room has to be left if a spectacular beer (or 6) comes after yours for a higher score.

I don't like this rationale. You should score how you perceive that beer to that style when you taste it. Yes each entry in the flight will get ranked accordingly, but you don't want to lowball a beer just cause something else may be better afterwards.