Infected beer - again / bleach?

[Gravity]

I took a look yesterday at my vessels and one out of the 3 has an infection. I know it probably happened when I was taking some readings about a week ago - or at least thats what i'm assuming.

I'm going through my process and trying to identify the possbible source of the infection, as i've had a couple over a span of some sessions. It does not happen every brew session which leads me to believe its not my equipment (the last one that happened was ages ago - so not sure it would be reoccurring); except maybe my plastic fermenter.

It could also be when I was taking the lid on/off. What's your process here? When you're about to take a reading, what steps do you take to make sure nothing happens. I think I may have used a kitchen sponge to wipe the sides of the fermenter (the rim) - and I think thats the source.

Two questions are I know that things like Startsan and the like have subplated bleach as the preferred method to sanitize, however, when do you actually use bleach? To bleach bomb a fermenter that may be causing infections?

Older thread don't really address this

And what is your process for taking readings - as I know this is most likely where the infection came from. I assure you i'm ultra careful, however, sometimes its never enough.

 

[ApolloSimcoe]

Sorry for your loss. Most homebrewers and even professionals eventually get an infection. When i had one the first thing I did was inspect anything plastic for scratches, micro cracks in auto siphons, wands etc. Hold these up to the light, you'll see cracks if they are there. BTW, never wash those in hot water, they will form cracks.

Throw anything away that's questionable or cheap. Its not worth losing a batch over a $2 part.

I then soaked everything I had in PBW and/or Oxy.

I named all of my FV's and added this info to my brew notes. "Fermented in "Yoda" for 10 days" as an example. This allowed me to track everything if i had another issue

You could have picked up something from that sponge. I use sponges too, but only for cleaning krausen, stuck on hops etc after fermentation is done and the FV is empty.

Do your FV's have spigots? This is a well known place to harbor critters.

I don't use bleach anymore, although you can and people do. Just needs to be completely rinsed.

Use StarSan if you aren't already and make sure the pH is low enough to do its job

 

[Gravity]

Sorry for your loss. Most homebrewers and even professionals eventually get an infection. When i had one the first thing I did was inspect anything plastic for scratches, micro cracks in auto siphons, wands etc. Hold these up to the light, you'll see cracks if they are there. BTW, never wash those in hot water, they will form cracks.

Throw anything away that's questionable or cheap. Its not worth losing a batch over a $2 part.

I then soaked everything I had in PBW and/or Oxy.

I named all of my FV's and added this info to my brew notes. "Fermented in "Yoda" for 10 days" as an example. This allowed me to track everything if i had another issue

You could have picked up something from that sponge. I use sponges too, but only for cleaning krausen, stuck on hops etc after fermentation is done and the FV is empty.

Do your FV's have spigots? This is a well known place to harbor critters.

I don't use bleach anymore, although you can and people do. Just needs to be completely rinsed.

Use StarSan if you aren't already and make sure the pH is low enough to do its job

You're right about the cheap part. Before this brew, I haven't brewed in about a year or so. The equipment was just in storage - however you're right, who know what it accumulates over time.

I really like the naming your vessels idea - I don't do that now, and try to go off memory...which you know how that goes. I keep copious notes, however, they would be useless if I don't know where the infection happened for future reference. I have no spigots on them - except my bottling bucket which i only use to bottle and rarely for fermenting

I use both PBW and Starsan - PBW for BK and MT and HLT - I use my pump to circulate everything a couple of times. I use starsan for my fermenters

I'm convinced it was the sponge

 

[ApolloSimcoe]

- except my bottling bucket which i only use to bottle and rarely for fermenting

Make sure you pull that thing apart. This is a high risk spot. Remove it from the bucket and pull it apart. I disassemble mine after every bottling day. Do you use the one that that is 5 pieces? Its got two white washers, the tightening nut, the barrel and housing.

 

[Gravity]

Make sure you pull that thing apart. This is a high risk spot. Remove it from the bucket and pull it apart. I disassemble mine after every bottling day. Do you use the one that that is 5 pieces? Its got two white washers, the tightening nut, the barrel and housing.

Thats the one I have - however, I didn't use the bottling bucket to ferment; I'll put it apart when I decide to bottle as I've seen critters crawling.

How do you take readings from your bucket? How do you take the lid off/on? I have a fermentation chamber that sometimes condenses water on top of the lid so I wipe the lid down and spray it with some starsan before opening.

 

[Soulshine2]

I took a look yesterday at my vessels and one out of the 3 has an infection. I know it probably happened when I was taking some readings about a week ago - or at least thats what i'm assuming.

I'm going through my process and trying to identify the possbible source of the infection, as i've had a couple over a span of some sessions. It does not happen every brew session which leads me to believe its not my equipment (the last one that happened was ages ago - so not sure it would be reoccurring); except maybe my plastic fermenter.

It could also be when I was taking the lid on/off. What's your process here? When you're about to take a reading, what steps do you take to make sure nothing happens. I think I may have used a kitchen sponge to wipe the sides of the fermenter (the rim) - and I think thats the source.

Two questions are I know that things like Startsan and the like have subplated bleach as the preferred method to sanitize, however, when do you actually use bleach? To bleach bomb a fermenter that may be causing infections?

Older thread don't really address this

And what is your process for taking readings - as I know this is most likely where the infection came from. I assure you i'm ultra careful, however, sometimes its never enough.

I dont touch my fermenter or open up the carboy until I see the airlock has been without action for 2 days and checking the clarity of my beer. I dunk my racking cane deep into the jug of made up starsan and give it a few pumps into the test jar*, let it drain. I wet my hands with starsan ,*remove the test jar from the case I keep it in and fill that with starsan,and drain. Only then do I remove the airlock/bung to remove a sample then with a starsan wet hand ,replace the bung once I have the sample. I starsan the hydrometer even though I dont ever plan on putting the sample back in, I draw enough sample to bottle just in case the gravity never changes (meaning it is done).
Do NOT keep opening it up to look at it. Every time you do that ,youre allowing the protective CO2 cap to escape ,thus allowing any contaminants in.
Rarely , if ever ,have I used bleach.
Not sure where your cleanliness is being breached. Go back and start from scratch and clean and sanitize everything you use/touch after the boil. bucket, valves, hoses/tubing, wand ,etc.
For bottling, I still use the bottling bucket that came with my kit , with the plastic spigot that came with it...Basically the red center parts pulls straight out to clean . Everything gets pulled apart and starsan soaked before bottling.

 

[ApolloSimcoe]

Thats the one I have - however, I didn't use the bottling bucket to ferment

Doesn't matter, i don't ferment in that either but it still needs to be cleaned properly every time.

How do you take readings from your bucket? How do you take the lid off/on?

I don't. Depending on the style i just let it ride and take a reading at bottling time (usually 2 weeks) no secondary.

I have a fermentation chamber that sometimes condenses water on top of the lid so I wipe the lid down and spray it with some starsan before opening.

This may be an issue. Do you sanitize the inside of the chamber? This is an application where i would use a bleach solution to kill mold, bacteria etc.

 

[Gravity]

Doesn't matter, i don't ferment in that either but it still needs to be cleaned properly every time.


I don't. Depending on the style i just let it ride and take a reading at bottling time (usually 2 weeks) no secondary.

This may be an issue. Do you sanitize the inside of the chamber? This is an application where i would use a bleach solution to kill mold, bacteria etc.

Cleaning the chamber with bleach is a good call - i've only used starsan up to this point

 

[Soulshine2]

Cleaning the chamber with bleach is a good call - i've only used starsan up to this point

once starsan dries, it is basically ineffective. Bleach seems to have more lasting power.

 

[ApolloSimcoe]

We always hear that one of the most important aspects of brewing is cleaning and sanitizing and its true. You really have to be anal about every surface and nook and cranny. It doesn't take more than a spec to ruin all your hard work.

On a side note if you do get infected batches its not the end of the world. You could with a little research create a nice sour. I also know that there's info out there on how to make your own malt vinegar and I believe this can be done with certain brews that have gone "bad" for drinking purposes.

Also if you do replace buckets don't throw the old ones away. These are great for sour projects...if that's your thing.

 

[Gravity]

We always hear that one of the most important aspects of brewing is cleaning and sanitizing and its true. You really have to be anal about every surface and nook and cranny. It doesn't take more than a spec to ruin all your hard work.

On a side note if you do get infected batches its not the end of the world. You could with a little research create a nice sour. I also know that there's info out there on how to make your own malt vinegar and I believe this can be done with certain brews that have gone "bad" for drinking purposes.

Also if you do replace buckets don't throw the old ones away. These are great for sour projects...if that's your thing.

I've done some research into making infected brews into sours - as I guess thats all they really are. I tried it once and I thought the bottled "sour" was good. However, it has to much of a tart/wild flavor (I think Northern Brewer added to that character) for my liking. I drink it from time to time - or share with friends.

I appreciate your insight

 

[Gravity]

View attachment 609567 View attachment 609568

 

[Soulshine2]

View attachment 609567 View attachment 609568
View attachment 609569 View attachment 609570

in that first pic...what the hell is THAT?? Looks like a Nat Geo drone pic of a floating arctic ice mass with seals laying on it....Doesnt look good.

 

[Gravity]

in that first pic...what the hell is THAT?? Looks like a Nat Geo drone pic of a floating arctic ice mass with seals laying on it....Doesnt look good.

Thats a really good description

Looks like Lacto - I had three batches 2 are in the the pics, and the 3rd I bottled.
The third had what appeared to be lacto about to start forming - so I bottled it

3 days later the bottles look like they have a ring forming at the top - could be krausen ring; however it might also be infected.

I reckon i'll give it 2 seeks and see what happens. At the very best i'l have great beer, and at the worst gushers/terrible beer

I'll probably boil the bottles and reuse

 

[brewbama]

I recommend not using Star San. Use Iodophor. In the proper concentration it is a no rinse sanitizer. It kills mold spores, viruses, etc that Star San doesn’t. Bleach has to be rinsed.

Also, I recommend not wiping stuff off. The condensation is fine. Don’t mess with it.

 

[ApolloSimcoe]

3 days later the bottles look like they have a ring forming at the top - could be krausen ring; however it might also be infected.

Yes this IS a sign of an infection. This is dangerous and you could possibly have bottle bombs in your possession. I recommend getting those in a fridge ASAP. Open with extreme caution over a sink. Possibly with a towel over the top. Gushing bottles can reach the ceiling. Not fun to clean that up.

How long did it take that pelicle to form?

 

[Gravity]

I recommend not using Star San. Use Iodophor. In the proper concentration it is a no rinse sanitizer. It kills mold spores, bacteria, viruses that Star San doesn’t. Bleach has to be rinsed.

Also, I recommend not wiping stuff off. The condensation is fine. Don’t mess with it.

What your concentration ratio?

 

[Gravity]

Yes this IS a sign of an infection. This is dangerous and you could possibly have bottle bombs in your possession. I recommend getting those in a fridge ASAP. Open with extreme caution over a sink. Possibly with a towel over the top. Gushing bottles can reach the ceiling. Not fun to clean that up.

How long did it take that pelicle to form?

I've had bomb before that reached the ceiling - a beer experiment gone bad; I have video of that somewhere

They've been at room temperature for like 3 days - and the ring formed on the 2nd day

The pelicle in the fermenters formed 2 days after taking gravity readings - 2 weeks after fermentation, before that the beer was chugging along just fine

The betadine / Iodophor idea sounds interesting - i've heard of people using it, however I never have myself.

 

[shetc]

Iodophor - It's what they use in hospitals to disinfect appliances, wounds, etc. Check out the discussion on sanitation:

http://miami-homebrew.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/October-Meeting.pdf

 

[RPh_Guy]

Looks like Lacto - I had three batches 2 are in the the pics, and the 3rd I bottled.
The third had what appeared to be lacto about to start forming - so I bottled it

Since many microbes can form a pellicle, you can't tell what's in there just by looking.

Bottling won't stop progression of certain microbes like Brett and Lacto, but it will help stop others, like Acetobacter and Pichia.

 

[brewbama]

What your concentration ratio?

https://www.morebeer.com/products/btf-iodophor-sanitizer.html

 

[Kharnynb]

for taking gravity samples, a 100 ml. syringe with 2-3 feet of thin food-save hose(for example the one on your autosiphon) will fit through the waterlock hole and reduce exposure to air and infectants.

 

[ApolloSimcoe]

How is Iodophor for people with Iodine issues? Does that stuff stain plastics?

 

[augiedoggy]

I know this is sort of off topic but since it was mentioned... the co2 "blanket" only lasts for minutes at most before mixing with any oxygen that might end up in the fermenter... in short you need to purge all the oygen in the carboy every time its opened somehow or it will end up being exposed to the beer. the gases dont stay separated that is a complete brewing myth.

 

[Soulshine2]

I know this is sort of off topic but since it was mentioned... the co2 "blanket" only lasts for minutes at most before mixing with any oxygen that might end up in the fermenter... in short you need to purge all the oygen in the carboy every time its opened somehow or it will end up being exposed to the beer. the gases dont stay separated that is a complete brewing myth.

displacement after saturation has been achieved .

 

[RPh_Guy]

How is Iodophor for people with Iodine issues? Does that stuff stain plastics?

It depends on the "issue". If you have an iodine deficiency, it may help with that
Yes, it can stain plastics.

As for my thoughts on sanitizing...
People try to blame sanitizers for their contamination issues, but cleaning more likely needs to be addressed. Sanitizers don't substitute as cleaning agents.

Star San works perfectly fine; so does iodophor, and so do several others. Equipment needs to be properly cleaned, otherwise it simply can't be sanitized with a surface sanitizer.

I personally would never use bleach since it has downsides and not much upside when compared to other cleansers and sanitizers.

 

[ApolloSimcoe]

Agreed

 

[shoengine]

I personally would never use bleach since it has downsides and not much upside when compared to other cleansers and sanitizers.

Bleach is my "nuke it from orbit" option. Used very rarely, but employed on glass, plastics and non-stainless if required. Other than that, starsan has been a rockstar.

 

[Gravity]

People try to blame sanitizers for their contamination issues, but cleaning more likely needs to be addressed. Sanitizers don't substitute as cleaning agents.

Star San works perfectly fine; so does iodophor, and so do several others. Equipment needs to be properly cleaned, otherwise it simply can't be sanitized with a surface sanitizer.

+1

Can't argue with that

 

[balrog]

I recommend not using Star San. Use Iodophor. In the proper concentration it is a no rinse sanitizer. It kills mold spores, viruses, etc that Star San doesn’t. Bleach has to be rinsed.

Also, I recommend not wiping stuff off. The condensation is fine. Don’t mess with it.

+1 - Iodophor is more broad spectrum while StarSan is bacteriacide.

As for wiping insides of condensing, I just use some of those handy Clorox wipes. One man's method.

 

[don_bran321]

Fittings and pumps after the boil man. Check and clean them like crazy. I didn't realize how much nasty stuff was in my bk ball valve till I tore it apart the one time. (I used to just run hot cleaner through it before and after brewing) my little solar pump had some nastys in it too.
Never got an infection but definitely some off flavors

 

[doogster]

As for my thoughts on sanitizing...
People try to blame sanitizers for their contamination issues, but cleaning more likely needs to be addressed. Sanitizers don't substitute as cleaning agents.

Star San works perfectly fine; so does iodophor, and so do several others. Equipment needs to be properly cleaned, otherwise it simply can't be sanitized with a surface sanitizer.

What he said ^^^

Sanitizing solutions aren't effective if the equipment isn't cleaned first.

I use OXYclean free, or PBW to clean.... followed by StarSan for sanitizing. I no longer use bleach. Bleach is cheap, but you have to make sure you do a REALLY good job of rinsing because chlorine will cause off flavors in your finished product.

 

[brewbama]

How is Iodophor for people with Iodine issues? Does that stuff stain plastics?

Not sure about folks with iodine issues. Better check it out first.

I’ve read it can stain plastic.

 

[brewbama]

Fittings and pumps after the boil man. Check and clean them like crazy. I didn't realize how much nasty stuff was in my bk ball valve till I tore it apart the one time. (I used to just run hot cleaner through it before and after brewing) my little solar pump had some nastys in it too.
Never got an infection but definitely some off flavors

I got quick clean ball valves for that very reason.

https://www.brewershardware.com/1-2-NPT-Quick-Clean-Take-Apart-Ball-Valve.html