In Defense of a Secondary

[MaddBaggins]

Is there something magic that the beer can do in a secondary vessel that it can't do bottle conditioning on the shelf? If you are a bottler anyways aren't you just aging out fermentation off flavors to throw some sugar in the batch and have to age all over again?

For me, the secondary is for my beers that take months to reach FG and/or develop the desired flavor profile. I don't want them in a bucket for months.
Otherwise I just primary only.


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[guitarguy6]

I always used a secondary when I bottled. Leave a week in primary and then transfer to secondary with the gelatin finings. My beer always came out clear with no sediment in the bottles. I finally got kegs and I think I'll stop using the secondary.

 

[Yooper]

"Isn't there a pile of dead yeast there also?"

Have you ever used a siphon?

Cheers
--Adam Selene

Believe it or not, I have been making wine for over 25 years, and am proficient with racking.

But even so, there is yeast and other sediment on the bottom of my secondary (if I use one). It doesn't magically go away, as it will continue to fall for a while. So even a lager may sit on a bit of trub as it lagers for 10-12 weeks. There may be less trub, but there is certainly some.

What makes THAT yeast not dead, but the first yeast that falls out dead? That isn't biologically possible. Sure, some are dead, some are dormant, some are active, etc, as they may be all in different stages but it's not like all of the yeast dies and gets bad tasting at one time.

It's true that leaving beer on the trub can impact the flavor, and some people find that pleasing while some do not. I am not one to leave most ales in the fermenter for more than about 10 days or so, mostly because my beer is clear by then and I don't care for the flavor imparted by the long primary. It's not autolysis, though- it's more of a yeast character.

 

[Teromous]

I ferment in a bucket with a spigot and drain it to a carboy when its ready.
I'm pretty lazy and its easier for me to clean out the primary fermentation mess from a bucket than clean my glass carboy. I haven't noticed any oxidation problems. Draining from the bucket also gives me an opportunity to check the gravity and do a taste test before I bottle.
There was a comment about a wife that "hates the hobby". All I can say is you should talk to her about it. Maybe she really doesn't hate brewing.
There's a good chance there's some other issue that's bothering her.
I'm divorced, so I can brew whenever I want, but I can't advocate trading divorce for the freedom to brew. Not trying to be preachy, just something to think about. Cheers!

This is one of the reasons I really want a conical. If I could find an inexpensive one that takes up about the same real estate as a 6 gallon carboy I would be set. Throw it in my fridge to cool while fermenting, dump the yeast from the bottom, throw some hops or cocao in through the top...

 

[podz]

This is one of the reasons I really want a conical. If I could find an inexpensive one that takes up about the same real estate as a 6 gallon carboy I would be set. Throw it in my fridge to cool while fermenting, dump the yeast from the bottom, throw some hops or cocao in through the top...

They've been pushing these for months for 90 bucks.

https://www.thefastrack.ca/main/fastferment

Only reason I don't have one is that they won't ship to Finland. They are supposed to have a distributor in Belgium, but I'm guessing that the price isn't going to be anywhere near that 90 bucks..

 

[jekeane]

This is one of those things that I have never been able to figure out. Every one wants to do a yeast starter-- nessesary or not. No one wants to do a secondary??? That makes sense, let's have a good vigorus start, and then do our best to undermine that start by letting the beer sit on a pile of dead yeast, and whatever else might be sitting in there. Why is it that homebrewers try to emulate profetional practices that they don't need to worry about, while disregarding those that they should be concerned with? Why is a 1 litre erlenmyer flask and stir bar/plate considered easy/usefull while a syphon rod is considered difficult/intimidateing? If we are too lazey to transfer the beer, how do we ever summon the energy to brew the beer in the first place? My answer to this issue is, go ahead and omit the secondary. You will probably get away with it for a good long time, but sooner or later lightning will strike. There are already plenty of potential lightning rods sticking out of any given batch, so why tempt mother nature with one more?

Cheers.
--Adam Selene

Not to pile on but... there is no pile of dead yeast unless you are talking several months in primary. Starters are about cell counts and proper pitching rates. One pack of 05 or a single vial isn't going to cut it a high OG beer. I don't know about you but I would rather mix $1 of DME and some water throw it in a starter with my 1 vial then spend another $6 to pitch two vials. The "lightning rod" of infection, oxidation, or some other mishap due to racking an unnecessary amount of times is far more likely to get struck then the practice of extended primary.

In the end do what you think works for you.

 

[Teromous]

They've been pushing these for months for 90 bucks.

https://www.thefastrack.ca/main/fastferment

Only reason I don't have one is that they won't ship to Finland. They are supposed to have a distributor in Belgium, but I'm guessing that the price isn't going to be anywhere near that 90 bucks..

Those came out years ago and I don't remember why but they never took off. If there's one thing I'm cautious about, it's a "reboot" of a product.

 

[j1n]

Those came out years ago and I don't remember why but they never took off. If there's one thing I'm cautious about, it's a "reboot" of a product.

probably because you have to mount something to the wall to use it. Also most of us use mini fridges or chest freezers as fermentation chambers and there isnt a way to use that fermentor with the fermentation chambers we use.

Also there are much better options than that plastic wall mounted conical fermentor.

 

[chawn]

probably because you have to mount something to the wall to use it. Also most of us use mini fridges or chest freezers as fermentation chambers and there isnt a way to use that fermentor with the fermentation chambers we use.

Also there are much better options than that plastic wall mounted conical fermentor.

That's why I don't have one. I use an old refrigerator for fermenting and a conical fermentor would take all my space.

 

[elkshadow]

I should have noted this on the first post, I have an extremely cheap wife that does not support my brewing hobby, so I can not purchase another primary at this time. Am I the only one with a wife that hates this hobby?

Go to a restaurant supply store. You can buy HDPE food grade 3.5 gallon buckets with lid for about 4 bucks each. Drill a hole in the lid for your airlock and you're all set. The one I go to has 4 gallon and 5 gallon and they are a little more but I think the 5 gallon ones are like 6 bucks with a lid.

I do 3 gallon all grain batches too. I have about 7 of these buckets. I never secondary. Too much work and risk.

 

[Yooper]

Go to a restaurant supply store. You can buy HDPE food grade 3.5 gallon buckets with lid for about 4 bucks each. Drill a hole in the lid for your airlock and you're all set. The one I go to has 4 gallon and 5 gallon and they are a little more but I think the 5 gallon ones are like 6 bucks with a lid.

I do 3 gallon all grain batches too. I have about 7 of these buckets. I never secondary. Too much work and risk.

I stopped in my local grocery store's bakery. They gave me (for free!) big buckets with lids that once held peanut butter, strawberry jam (for doughnut filling, I presume), and icing.

The only buckets you don't want are pickle or olive buckets, as you can't get the smell out of those.

I bet most stores would give them away, or sell for $1 or 2.

 

[chato]

I've been avoiding racking to secondary since the last porter I did tastes of wet cardboard, which I attributed to oxidation that occurred during racking. I could be wrong about the cause - it could have happened in the bottling stage I suppose - but that wet cardboard taste is horrible. I keep trying the bottles but usually end up pouring them down the drain.

 

[frozennorth]

My first wife was a controlling lady, that is why I got ride of her. I married an angel. She supports my brewing and mountain biking, but she is not a drinker and would never mountain bike.

I never secondary. Now I use the 5 gal carboy to make cider.

 

[elkshadow]

I stopped in my local grocery store's bakery. They gave me (for free!) big buckets with lids that once held peanut butter, strawberry jam (for doughnut filling, I presume), and icing.

The only buckets you don't want are pickle or olive buckets, as you can't get the smell out of those.

I bet most stores would give them away, or sell for $1 or 2.

Word. It seems like "buckets are cheap" is the resounding chorus in this thread.

 

[teach]

Yes. Most of the beers I've judged in competitions show signs of oxidation. Sometimes it's not too bad- more of a "sherry" flavor rather than the really severe oxidation sign of "wet cardboard", but many homebrews do show oxidation after a period of time. Some are not too bad, as in a barleywine which is expected to have signs of oxidation, but many are much more out of place.

That makes sense. I think I had confused HSA with oxidation.

I must have a decent process because I don't think I've ever noticed that in my own beers, but maybe I just don't know what I'm looking for.

Maybe I'll try a few brews without a secondary and see if I can detect any differences in flavor and/or clarity.

Thanks, Yoop.

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

This is one of those things that I have never been able to figure out. Every one wants to do a yeast starter-- nessesary or not. No one wants to do a secondary??? That makes sense, let's have a good vigorus start, and then do our best to undermine that start by letting the beer sit on a pile of dead yeast, and whatever else might be sitting in there. Why is it that homebrewers try to emulate profetional practices that they don't need to worry about, while disregarding those that they should be concerned with? Why is a 1 litre erlenmyer flask and stir bar/plate considered easy/usefull while a syphon rod is considered difficult/intimidateing? If we are too lazey to transfer the beer, how do we ever summon the energy to brew the beer in the first place? My answer to this issue is, go ahead and omit the secondary. You will probably get away with it for a good long time, but sooner or later lightning will strike. There are already plenty of potential lightning rods sticking out of any given batch, so why tempt mother nature with one more?

Cheers.
--Adam Selene

Adam, you should know as well as anyone... TANSTAAFS: there ain't no such thing as a free secondary

If I bottled, I might secondary to reduce trub and improve clarity. But I keg, and I cold crash, and occasionally use gelatin. Beer rarely sits in the primary more than ~2.5 weeks. (Often less). But secondary does give one more chance for oxidation and possibly infection, so there IS a risk.

So I just don't see what possible benefit I'd get. I'm not too worried about oxidation since I transfer under pressure, but unless I can identify a benefit, I don't see why secondary would help.

 

[podz]

probably because you have to mount something to the wall to use it. Also most of us use mini fridges or chest freezers as fermentation chambers and there isnt a way to use that fermentor with the fermentation chambers we use.

I did see a floor stand for it on their website. That could probably be placed in a fridge. Anyway, as I said, I won't be getting one here due to the pricing.

 

[podz]

My first wife was a controlling lady, that is why I got ride of her. I married an angel. She supports my brewing and mountain biking, but she is not a drinker and would never mountain bike.

I never secondary. Now I use the 5 gal carboy to make cider.

That's exactly what I do: use a plastic bucket for making beer and my glass vessels for making cider.

 

[C-Rider]

I should have noted this on the first post, I have an extremely cheap wife that does not support my brewing hobby, so I can not purchase another primary at this time. Am I the only one with a wife that hates this hobby?

5 gal buckets at HD cost about $4

 

[C-Rider]

This is one of those things that I have never been able to figure out. Every one wants to do a yeast starter-- nessesary or not. No one wants to do a secondary??? That makes sense, let's have a good vigorus start, and then do our best to undermine that start by letting the beer sit on a pile of dead yeast, and whatever else might be sitting in there. Why is it that homebrewers try to emulate profetional practices that they don't need to worry about, while disregarding those that they should be concerned with? Why is a 1 litre erlenmyer flask and stir bar/plate considered easy/usefull while a syphon rod is considered difficult/intimidateing? If we are too lazey to transfer the beer, how do we ever summon the energy to brew the beer in the first place? My answer to this issue is, go ahead and omit the secondary. You will probably get away with it for a good long time, but sooner or later lightning will strike. There are already plenty of potential lightning rods sticking out of any given batch, so why tempt mother nature with one more?

Cheers.
--Adam Selene

You need to read some "new" books on home brewing. That business about "dead yeast" is an old wife's tale for home brewers and our "small" batches.

 

[Microscopist]

I used to think I used a secondary until I started reading this thread!
My brews typically spend 7-14 days in primary and get transferred to a poly keg when I reckon they're a few points off final gravity. I let gas pressure build up in the keg and leave the brew for 4-6 weeks ( or longer - six months for some } to mature and drop bright. We'll then usually drink the first eight pints on draught - which is when the pressure runs out. The remaineder then gets bottled.
So I guess it's only a secondary for the bottled stuff.....

 

[sudbuster]

So, I am seeing more and more that veteran homebrewers shun the secondary fermentor, and maybe one day I will, too, but here is why I always use one.

There are two reasons, and it's actually more of a 1a and 1b.

It all comes down to my set up.

I have a 5 gallon carboy and a 3 gallon carboy.

I make 3 gallon AG batches.

I use the 5 gallon as my primary so I leave space for an active fermentation
and move to the 3 gallon for further conditioning and to reduce headspace once most of the fermentation is complete, usually about 2 weeks.

The other reason, also related to setup, is that I want that beer the hell out of my primary so I can brew another batch! At the pace I drink, 3 gallons lasts about two weeks (A respectable 2.29 beers a day average).

So with my current setup, I brew a new batch every two weeks, which requires me to use a secondary. Whenever I expand my setup, I may do away with it, but for now, it is the best thing for me.

Yeah, here we go on another secondary, no secondary round. From my experience, a secondary won't hurt you, but, depending on the brew, it may be necessary. I brew lagers 90%. A lager will pick up a "yeast flavour" if left on the yeast too long. I move my beers when and where I like at any time I choose by pushing with c02 into a co2 filled vessel. No worries, founded or not, about oxidation etc. There are those that cause a big, loud, and repugnant ballihue about not using a secondary. That is up to them, they are all ale brewers. Secondaries, tertiaries, etc all have there place in brewing a good beer. My advice, from making this stuff for over 30 years, is do what works for you and don't pay attention to the newest fad from new comers.

 

[gfinockio]

I should have noted this on the first post, I have an extremely cheap wife that does not support my brewing hobby, so I can not purchase another primary at this time. Am I the only one with a wife that hates this hobby?

Easy solution - get a new wife.

 

[KendallAdkins]

Easy solution - get a new wife.

Lol. She's really a lovely woman that keeps me out of trouble. Just doesn't like beer or spending "unnecessary" money.

 

[gfinockio]

Lol. She's really a lovely woman that keeps me out of trouble. Just doesn't like beer or spending "unnecessary" money.

I don't understand - beer is "necessary". Very confusing.

Do what I did - brew a kombucha for her. Tell her Gwyneth Paltrow swears by it. Do this every 6 months or so, in between beer brews. She'll accept your "hobby" then.

 

[Jsamp]

Tell her you will stop giving her the D if she doesnt let you get a new bucket.

 

[KendallAdkins]

Tell her you will stop giving her the D if she doesnt let you get a new bucket.

Haha. I don't like buckets. If I wanted a bucket, I would spend $2.85 at Home Depot, drill out a hole for a grommet and airlock and call it a day. I like glass.

 

[moreb33rplz]

With my process a secondary always gives me a clearer beer. But I have a bad process.

 

[Jsamp]

Haha. I don't like buckets. If I wanted a bucket, I would spend $2.85 at Home Depot, drill out a hole for a grommet and airlock and call it a day. I like glass.

I agree with your wife. Glass is an unnecessary cost. Lol

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

Lol. She's really a lovely woman that keeps me out of trouble. Just doesn't like beer or spending "unnecessary" money.

Tell her the rock she's wearing on her left hand was enough "unnecessary" spending to cover your brewing hobby and then some!

 

[KendallAdkins]

Tell her the rock she's wearing on her left hand was enough "unnecessary" spending to cover your brewing hobby and then some!

I mean that sounds good from a man point of view. Not sure she would take it so well.

 

[KendallAdkins]

I agree with your wife. Glass is an unnecessary cost. Lol

This has nothing to do with beer, I just wanted to quote you so you would see it. Where do you live in WV? I grew up in the Huntington area.

 

[Jsamp]

This has nothing to do with beer, I just wanted to quote you so you would see it. Where do you live in WV? I grew up in the Huntington area.

Parkersburg.

 

[KendallAdkins]

Parkersburg.

Cool. I went to Spring Valley. We used to play you guys all the time.

 

[Jsamp]

Cool. I went to Spring Valley. We used to play you guys all the time.

I graduated from PHS in 2000.

 

[KendallAdkins]

I graduated from PHS in 2000.

07 for me.

 

[zoonose]

Word. It seems like "buckets are cheap" is the resounding chorus in this thread.

I get mine for free at a local bakery. She throws away more than I could ever use.

 

[KendallAdkins]

Word. It seems like "buckets are cheap" is the resounding chorus in this thread.

I love buckets for lots of things. Bottling, holding sanitizer, crushing grain into, bulk grain storage, a chair... Just not fermenting. I think I just have a negative attitude towards them because the only batch I've ever done in a bucket got infected, which was probably my fault. Still, can't shake the opinion.

 

[podz]

I think I just have a negative attitude towards them because the only batch I've ever done in a bucket got infected, which was probably my fault. Still, can't shake the opinion.

Good thing is that they are all sorts of products available, so you have a choice.

If you ever try to make raspberry wine, for example, you'll quickly find that it's wholly impossible to fit a mesh bag containing 15 pounds of berries down the relatively tiny neck of a glass fermentation vessel. If you don't like plastic, you could even do primary in a large brew kettle - there's really no need for an airlock until you transfer to secondary.

 

[Teromous]

there's really no need for an airlock until you transfer to secondary.

Unless you discover that a mischievous group of ants are performing recon inside your fermentation fridge to assault a giant malty vessel of goodness. I'd rather have an airlock on than leave it open as an ant cliff diving ledge. I am continually amazed at how resourceful they are at getting into places.