Importance of wort clarity after mash

[Jbrew]

Got the chance to watch a brew with a pro brewery recently. Have been doing BIAB for most of my home brewing career, but I did do some 3 vessel batch sparge brewing. I never really accomplished clear wort during my vorlauf and lauter routine. I’m pretty sure i rushed the process and left my recirc on too fast of flow. During the pro brew, watching the clarity in the sight glass during vorlauf Was awesome. I know this is common for standard 2/3 vessel brewing when vorlauf and lautering, but I never got to experience it first hand. This made me start thinking of how importance wort clarity maybe. I know plenty of people use BIAB but I can’t help but wonder does that additional cloudiness increase the possibility of pulling tannins or causing astringency? I’m considering going back to a 2 vessel setup and am trying to weigh the pros and cons.
I did do a very quick google search, but I didn’t read too far into it, so I apologize if this has been addressed many times before.
Thanks

 

[Miraculix]

Got the chance to watch a brew with a pro brewery recently. Have been doing BIAB for most of my home brewing career, but I did do some 3 vessel batch sparge brewing. I never really accomplished clear wort during my vorlauf and lauter routine. I’m pretty sure i rushed the process and left my recirc on too fast of flow. During the pro brew, watching the clarity in the sight glass during vorlauf Was awesome. I know this is common for standard 2/3 vessel brewing when vorlauf and lautering, but I never got to experience it first hand. This made me start thinking of how importance wort clarity maybe. I know plenty of people use BIAB but I can’t help but wonder does that additional cloudiness increase the possibility of pulling tannins or causing astringency? I’m considering going back to a 2 vessel setup and am trying to weigh the pros and cons.
I did do a very quick google search, but I didn’t read too far into it, so I apologize if this has been addressed many times before.
Thanks

To increase maximum shelf live, you want clear wort, as a pro. As we are not professionals and don't have to store our beer 6 months + till it reaches the consumer, we do not need to care about clear wort. We actually should embrace turbid wort as it has more yeast nutrients than clear wort and yeast health is more important to us than shelf life.

 

[Dland]

I would not embrace turbid wort, personally. With most of the yeasts I use, clear wort seems to produce better beer. There are exceptions of course, such as kveik or perhaps saison. But my lagers and basic ales have improved since I cleaned up my wort.

 

[Miraculix]

I would not embrace turbid wort, personally. With most of the yeasts I use, clear wort seems to produce better beer. There are exceptions of course, such as kveik or perhaps saison. But my lagers and basic ales have improved since I cleaned up my wort.

In which way did they improve?

 

[Dland]

Taste, mainly, finished clarity also seems better on ales.(the lagers are usually lagered long enough that they are clear anyway).

 

[cire]

Clearer wort makes better beer. An addition of yeast nutrient will not introduce haze.
https://www.murphyandson.co.uk/resources/technical-articles/wort-clarity-into-copper/

 

[cactusgarrett]

Clearer wort makes better beer.

This is an absolute statement that I can't get on board with. It's more an issue after the boil, not necessarily the mash. I've had the cloudiest, most protein rich wort come out of the mash tun clear up just fine after the boil. I've done the same beers both shooting for as clear as possible, and just dumping from FV into the fermenter, and my experience aligns pretty close to what the guys at Brulosophy have documented (REPEATEDLY) - there's no evidence of quality difference as it relates to taste, aroma, etc.

To me, the only benefit - on the homebrew level, as Miraculix suggested - is that clearer wort won't clog pumps/tubing.

 

[madscientist451]

I hardly have any time to brew these days, and now that its cold out I was thinking about a 2 night brew schedule.
Night 1, get the grain and brewing stuff sorted out and do the mash. When the mash is finished, set the wort out in an unheated porch. Overnight temps last night here were about 40F, but I'd probably wait until it was colder.
Night 2. Boil the wort, chill and transfer to fermenter.
So I'm wondering if I would get clear wort by letting it settle overnight and siphoning it off?
I've switched back from a cooler mash tun to BIAB and my wort has been pretty murky, but I haven't worried about it. Also, most of my beer sits around for a while
before its consumed, either in kegs or bottles, so I suppose it settles by itself,
my lagers come out pretty clear.
Still in cider/wine making season here so it will be a while before I try it.
Also, this topic was covered in a Brulosophy exbeeriment, but it would still be worthwhile to do a side by side brew comparison.

 

[Dland]

To clarify my thoughts on clarity; I do a 10 min vorlauf, at fairly slow rate, so wort is fairly clear going into the BK. But what is more important is a good protein break during boil and not letting much hot break into fermentor.

I achieve the later by gravity feeding post boil wort though fine mesh hop spider (usually with leaf hops)in a 4th vessel for post boil hop step.

It is that step that seems to have improved my beers most.

 

[cactusgarrett]

what is more important is a good protein break during boil

100% agree

...and not letting much hot break into the fermentor.

100% disagree - again, as it relates to the issue of shelf stability.

Brulosophy did a few shots at this, actually. However, this deals with kettle trub and not necessarily looking at clarity as it relates to exiting the mash tun.

Part 1
Part 2
Part 3

 

[kh54s10]

Not sure about the clarity, I haven't worried about getting clear wort and my beers have been fine.

But I don't think clarity has anything at all to do with tannins and astringency. For tannins you would have to do something extreme to have problems and astringency would come from other areas.

 

[jjw5015]

I Brew in a Bag, empty everything from the kettle into the fermenter and end up with perfectly clear beer if that is what I'm going for. And damn good beer if I do say so myself.

 

[LittleRiver]

...Have been doing BIAB for most of my home brewing career...does that additional cloudiness increase the possibility of pulling tannins or causing astringency?...

No.

...I’m considering going back to a 2 vessel setup and am trying to weigh the pros and cons...

The only thing to consider is are you having fun? Seriously.

This is a hobby, have fun with it and do whatever makes you happy. For some guys that means totally geeking out with over engineering and over building their hardware. Nothing wrong with that. For some it means finding the most elegantly simple way to brew beer. Nothing wrong with that either.

I fall squarely into the latter camp. I want my rig to be as simple as it can be while still making excellent beer. I don't want additional things to set up, troubleshoot, and cleanup. That's why I use a very simple BIAB rig. I can do a brew session in 3:40, from starting to fill the kettle to everything cleaned and put away. I don't want to downgrade to a more complicated rig.

Are you cold crashing your beers for several days at the end of fermentation? Usually that's all it takes to make them drop clear. You can also use fining agents if you like. I tried Irish Moss and gelatin, but found the results were unimpressive compared to just a cold crash, so cold crashing is all I do now.

Here's some BIAB brews made with no finings, just a cold crash. They tasted as good as they look.

 

[Miraculix]

I think this whole clear wort thing is highly influenced by confirmation bias. That clearer wort doesn't make clearer beer has been proven multiple times and i guess that the percieved taste difference is based on psychological effects. Same for hotbreak material into the fermenter or not.

 

[Bassman2003]

I see the problem being that this is more of a scientific topic being discussed by a lot of non-scientists! The literature supports clear wort being better at all stages of the brewing process. The homebrew practice supports doing literally anything you want outside of poor sanitation.

Changes in one part of of a brewing routine can be kind of intangible. Certainly something like trub after the mash. To notice a difference you would need to be brewing on that system for quite some time then make the switch and brew more. But these topics come at the crossroads of convenience vs effectiveness. Just like pro brewers are always restrained by economic forces, homebrewers are often constrained by time and focus. I think what Littleriver is stating is true, get clear wort if you can, if it makes you happy or fits into your brewing goals.

Back to the topic - there are chemical reasons all throughout the brewing process that have been studied and determined to be optimal. Optimal is the key word as it does not exclude other practices, just states what is best. The optimal way to make wort is to leave as much as possible behind at each stage, hence clear wort.

 

[Miraculix]

I see the problem being that this is more of a scientific topic being discussed by a lot of non-scientists! The literature supports clear wort being better at all stages of the brewing process. The homebrew practice supports doing literally anything you want outside of poor sanitation.

Changes in one part of of a brewing routine can be kind of intangible. Certainly something like trub after the mash. To notice a difference you would need to be brewing on that system for quite some time then make the switch and brew more. But these topics come at the crossroads of convenience vs effectiveness. Just like pro brewers are always restrained by economic forces, homebrewers are often constrained by time and focus. I think what Littleriver is stating is true, get clear wort if you can, if it makes you happy or fits into your brewing goals.

Back to the topic - there are chemical reasons all throughout the brewing process that have been studied and determined to be optimal. Optimal is the key word as it does not exclude other practices, just states what is best. The optimal way to make wort is to leave as much as possible behind at each stage, hence clear wort.

No. You are generalising too much. Optimum for which result? Long term stored commercial beer? Home brewed beer? Big abv? Low abv? Which yeast?

There is no one size that fits all.

Haven't heard any valid reason except long term storage potential that speaks for clearer wort or hot break not being dumped into the fermenter.

And this long term storage usually only is of interest for professionals who simply need this to sell their product.

 

[Dland]

Response to post 14:

I do not think my perception is based on physiological effects, but whatever. I've been constantly innovating and tweaking my brewing process for better beer and easier brew days, and it has been paying off. The wort has been clearer and the beer better, if there is not a direct correlation to wort clarity, I am not concerned. My guess is it is a factor with the style of beers I like to brew and drink.

I believe you replied to this thread first stating one should embrace turbidity, now clear wort is psychological. Hell why not just dump all your trub into the fermentor? Just kidding.

We all have our areas of focus, from what I gather yours is experimenting with different styles with emphasis on yeasts and such, with multiple small brew experiments and questionable sanitation, (; Mine is working toward ability to brew clean, consistent brews I like in large enough quantities that I do not have to brew every week. (not that I'd mind that if I had the time).

 

[jjw5015]

Response to post 14:
Hell why not just dump all your trub into the fermentor?

I do...and everything is ok

 

[Bassman2003]

No. You are generalising too much. Optimum for which result? Long term stored commercial beer? Home brewed beer? Big abv? Low abv? Which yeast?

There is no one size that fits all.

Haven't heard any valid reason except long term storage potential that speaks for clearer wort or hot break not being dumped into the fermenter.

And this long term storage usually only is of interest for professionals who simply need this to sell their product.

I really don't want to argue with you but to prove my point, are you stating any empirical evidence? I am not a scientist or chemist or a brewing scholar, so I can not prove right or wrong. And I would respectfully ask - is anybody an authority here? It comes down to doing what you believe to be true from your own research and experience. Or even who you respect the most. For me, if the pro German or Belgian brewers follow a practice, I am going with that over homebrewers. Even if it appears to be only for shelf life.

 

[Miraculix]

Response to post 14:

I do not think my perception is based on physiological effects, but whatever. I've been constantly innovating and tweaking my brewing process for better beer and easier brew days, and it has been paying off. The wort has been clearer and the beer better, if there is not a direct correlation to wort clarity, I am not concerned. My guess is it is a factor with the style of beers I like to brew and drink.

I believe you replied to this thread first stating one should embrace turbidity, now clear wort is psychological. Hell why not just dump all your trub into the fermentor? Just kidding.

We all have our areas of focus, from what I gather yours is experimenting with different styles with emphasis on yeasts and such, with multiple small brew experiments and questionable sanitation, (; Mine is working toward ability to brew clean, consistent brews I like in large enough quantities that I do not have to brew every week. (not that I'd mind that if I had the time).

Yes, dumping all the trub in is actually beneficial for the yeast and doesn't seem to have adverse affects on the beer except potentially lower long term storage potential.

 

[Miraculix]

I really don't want to argue with you but to prove my point, are you stating any empirical evidence? I am not a scientist or chemist or a brewing scholar, so I can not prove right or wrong. And I would respectfully ask - is anybody an authority here? It comes down to doing what you believe to be true from your own research and experience. Or even who you respect the most. For me, if the pro German or Belgian brewers follow a practice, I am going with that over homebrewers. Even if it appears to be only for shelf life.

It's within logical reasoning itself. I read a lot, also from a chemical and biological perspective, and I found nowhere actual arguements that speak against turbid wort and dumping all the hotbreak into the fermenter (except long term storage capabilities, which is a big thing for pros but mostly neglectable for us).

In contrary, I found solid evidence that the turbidity and hotbreak actually improves yeast health by providing additional nutrients. Happy yeast, happy brewer!

If you want to harvest yeast, it makes sense to get rid of the trub, but otherwise it doesn't look like trub removal does your beer any good.

Btw. There are more efficient screws to turn then turbidity. Oxygen ingress for example, if you are into keeping your beer fresh as long as possible.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Keeping the beer fresh longer is a worthwhile goal for me, based on my own personal brewing frequency and drinking habits. Therefore my goal is clear wort.
Yes, I'm also avoiding oxygen to the fullest extent possible (with my setup) and I'm using other best practices.

Boiling cloudy wort and dumping all trub into the fermenter are fine practices too, and they work great for a lot of home brewers.

There's not one right way to do things.

 

[Dland]

It's within logical reasoning itself. I read a lot, also from a chemical and biological perspective, and I found nowhere actual argument.......

Btw. There are more efficient screws to turn then turbidity. Oxygen ingress for example, if you are into keeping your beer fresh as long as possible.

I recently did read a scientific article posted on this forum correlating clear wort and improved taste, but alas, I'm not going to look for it and repost now, as my crew is coming up the drive after a rain delay, off to work in the mud I'm afraid.

Limiting 02 in beer (as in closed transfers, spunding, purged kegs, etc.) also a priority, as are other cold side practices,( fermentation temp control, ramping etc...) ,,,and if I am not brewing even better beer a year from now, I'll be disappointed. {;

 

[Miraculix]

I recently did read a scientific article posted on this forum correlating clear wort and improved taste, but alas, I'm not going to look for it and repost now, as my crew is coming up the drive after a rain delay, off to work in the mud I'm afraid.

Limiting 02 in beer (as in closed transfers, spunding, purged kegs, etc.) also a priority, as are other cold side practices,( fermentation temp control, ramping etc...) ,,,and if I am not brewing even better beer a year from now, I'll be disappointed. {;

Please post link to the paper if you find some time later on. It's not that I insist on this turbid thing, it's just that I haven't read anything that supported the clear wort theory in a scientific way beyond shelf live. But this doesn't mean that there cannot be something that was missed by all the stuff I read..

 

[Vale71]

100% agree



100% disagree - again, as it relates to the issue of shelf stability.

Brulosophy did a few shots at this, actually. However, this deals with kettle trub and not necessarily looking at clarity as it relates to exiting the mash tun.

Part 1
Part 2
Part 3

FYI the episode (I won't stoop to calling it an experiment) you cite has nothing at all to do with wort clarity going into the kettle, so it's completely unrelated to the topic.

 

[Vale71]

This is an absolute statement that I can't get on board with. It's more an issue after the boil, not necessarily the mash. I've had the cloudiest, most protein rich wort come out of the mash tun clear up just fine after the boil.

What you extract from the malt particles is not necessarily visible to the eye and will affect beer in ways that have nothing to do with clarity. In other words, how the wort looks after the boil is irrelevant.

 

[Vale71]

I know plenty of people use BIAB but I can’t help but wonder does that additional cloudiness increase the possibility of pulling tannins or causing astringency?

I'd be more worried about the effects of pulling out fatty acids from the malt particles. BTW if you want to have wort as clear or even clearer than the pros nothing beats a RIMS/HERMS system at the homebrew level.

 

[Vale71]

Clearer wort makes better beer. An addition of yeast nutrient will not introduce haze.
https://www.murphyandson.co.uk/resources/technical-articles/wort-clarity-into-copper/

And yet decoction makes some of the best beers I've tasted, either commercial or homemade. Even with single decoction you'll be boiling a lot more solid material than you would by boiling wort that looked like a mud puddle going into the kettle.
I think a lot depend on what kind of beer your making and what your standards are, especially regarding shelf life.

 

[Jbrew]

Wow everyone. Thanks for all the responses. So here’s the deal for me. I am actually not so concerned about having a clear beer after ferment. I am actually a very big fan of neipas so clear beer for me isn’t an absolute must. Most of my beers do go into the fermenter turbid and with hot break. I have started to use a hop spider, but that’s in regards to try and stop pump plugging rather then trying to keep trub out of the fermenter. As others have said, I’ve heard that trub in the fermenter is actually beneficial. Regardless of this, All my beers come out clear.
What I am more interested In is making my beers as best as I can.
My thoughts were The pro brewer vorlaufing for a half hour to get clear wort has to be doing it for some reason. If it’s strictly for shelf stability i can certainly see the necessity for it, but my thoughts as some said were the grain particles. Obviously all that turbidity is just pulverized grain and husk material. From the beginning we are taught not to boil grains as that will pull tannins and cause astringent flavor. If we leave all that behind to be boiled, is that affecting the finished product?

It was also mentioned whether I was looking to change my system up as per the enjoyment of the hobby, and to be honest this might be part of it. I had done some 3 vessel brewing a bit but got discouraged as the time and storage invested for the additional equipment just didn’t seem to changed my end product. That was however when my process was less refined and before I started using an electric system with temperature automation that I built. I’m currently weighing the pros Including being able to make higher gravity beers, loosing the grain basket so I can reinstall my kettle thermometers for better looks and Multiple temperature measurement points. Where as the cons are additional equipment to purchase, store and clean.
Thanks all for all the input so far.

 

[Bassman2003]

I agree this is style and pallet dependent to a certain extent. If you are looking for a shining Euro lager then all things by the textbook are probably your best bet. If you are making stouts and various hoppy ales there seems to be a lot more wiggle room for what is determined "good" or my favorite - "fine". Brewing a long time has shown me that I gain enjoyment out of improving my craft and trying to perfect the beers I brew. So my opinion is going to be based upon the brass ring where others might just want to make some beer - which is great. I just do not like the trend of poo pooing the science end because 'easy works for me'.

As for leaving particles from the mash in with your boil - I try to minimize it. I would love to ask some folks I respect in the brewing world like Dan Gordon on their perspective. Maybe I will send him an e-mail as he has answered some questions in the past...

 

[Blazinlow86]

My opinion is if you have the equipment to produce clear wort into the kettle that it's the ideal method however if you aren't setup for that I don't think replacing a biab setup with a traditional mash system for example is worth it solely to get clear wort into the kettle. I don't think your going to notice a difference without a lab test of some sort. That also depends on your end goals and all that though. Cheers

 

[Dland]

Please post link to the paper if you find some time later on. It's not that I insist on this turbid thing, it's just that I haven't read anything that supported the clear wort theory in a scientific way beyond shelf live. But this doesn't mean that there cannot be something that was missed by all the stuff I read..

Here is "paper" I referred to: http://scottjanish.com/esters-and-fusel-alcohols/
Refer to end of first paragraph under Trub. Thanks to day trippr for original post of this.

If I read it correctly, it seems presence of trub influences ester and fusel profiles of beer yeast produces.

I have no idea to scientific veracity of this, or anything else I read on this forum for that matter, but I suspect it as at least as well founded as other oft quoted sources.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Obviously all that turbidity is just pulverized grain and husk material.

It's fatty acids.

This page explains the pros and cons of leaving the trub in the kettle and quotes the most reputable textbooks in the brewing industry, citing scientific literature.
http://www.********************/brewing-methods/trub-seperation-why-and-how/

 

[Jbrew]

My opinion is if you have the equipment to produce clear wort into the kettle that it's the ideal method however if you aren't setup for that I don't think replacing a biab setup with a traditional mash system for example is worth it solely to get clear wort into the kettle. I don't think your going to notice a difference without a lab test of some sort. That also depends on your end goals and all that though. Cheers

I currently do 5 gallon batches with a 10 gallon eBIAB setup, however I already have a 15 gallon kettle with mating false bottom. So I’m not to far off from being able to make the switch. It would still cost me an additional $200-300 between possibly another pump and additional plumbing and hardware. So that’s where Im trying to decide if it would be worth it to me.

 

[Jbrew]

It's fatty acids.

This page explains the pros and cons of leaving the trub in the kettle and quotes the most reputable textbooks in the brewing industry, citing scientific literature.
http://www.********************/brewing-methods/trub-seperation-why-and-how/

I’m not disagreeing with you at all. I’m sure you have better knowledge then I do that’s why I’m here asking. Saying that it’s obviously just pulverized grain and husk is probably an overstatement, but surely some of it has to be right?
Unfortunately I do not have my own mill (another investment I’m planing to make), so I have to purchase my grain already crushed. It comes bagged and you can see at the bottom of the bag the fine powder from grain and husk material.
Thank you for the insight, I will spend some time reading the link you provided.

 

[Dland]

Don't worry about it too much. If I know all the things I would have to do, acquire and know when I started home brewing, I would have been overwhelmed.

Just keep brewing, upgrade when you can afford it, change methods when you want to, etc. Your beer will evolve, as likely will your taste in beer.

I recommend getting that mill as next brew investment...

 

[Blazinlow86]

I currently do 5 gallon batches with a 10 gallon eBIAB setup, however I already have a 15 gallon kettle with mating false bottom. So I’m not to far off from being able to make the switch. It would still cost me an additional $200-300 between possibly another pump and additional plumbing and hardware. So that’s where Im trying to decide if it would be worth it to me.

Personally I wouldn't bother. I primarily Brew on a 3 vessel traditional Mash system but also have a biab smaller setup for test batches. The only difference I noticed between them is that the test batches take longer to clear when that's the goal. The beer made on the traditional mash system always ends up better all around however with that system I also use a unitank with all the accessories were as the biab setup I use carboys so its not a fair comparison in that regard. Cheers

 

[bierhaus15]

Packaged beer stability and clarity were the driving factors behind wort studies alluded to. Stroh's was the poster child for what happens when you can't deliver that; ie, nationwide recall, ect, and your brewery closes. That said, the current trend for large breweries is to move away from flotation tanks, ect, and optimize the balance 02/trub for fermentation performance.

Trub tends to contain a fair amount of lineolic acid and it is arguably the most influential fatty acid for fermentation performance. In lieu of trub in wort, there needs to be a high amount of 02 for the yeast, or fermentation can suffer. For lager fermentation, less trub is generally better for producing neutral-low flavor beers. That said, the amount of O2, mg, and zinc must be carefully controlled and most trub-less fermentations don't have enough of those things; RDF% will generally be lower. In contrast, some trub is seen as positive for ales and the presence of trub and 02 is best of both worlds.

All said, don't fret over some trub in the fermenter, unless you are brewing super clean lagers and care about package stability. If you are not using pure 02, trub is a definite benefit for fermentation.

 

[Jbrew]

Thank you guys for the responses. I’m still kinda on the fence about what I want to do, but I think some degree of it is just wanting to rebuild some of my system.
In the mean the time, I need to brew more and I’ll try to scrutinize my process a bit to decide what items really are priority for change/upgrade.

 

[Miraculix]

Some interesting reads in here, especially the Scott Janish link. I like this guy, he always seems to be open minded with a neutral position doing some quality research.

However, at the end it is again a big "it depends", no clear answer possible. There are pluses and minuses for both, dumping all in and the other side, getting the pre-fermentation beer as clear as possible. Probably something in between is also a possibility....