Imperial Stout Water Adjustments (HCO too low)

[Kinggolf83]

I’m trying to work through the water adjustments for an Smoked Imperial Stout. I currently use Brewers’ Friend for my recipe and water corrections. I chose to use the Dublin (Dry Stout) profile and it gave me the attached profile.

I can make some adjustments with gypsum and calcium chloride and get the profile pretty close but I am having the biggest issue with the HCO. If I use Baking Soda to get it close to 200 ppm ( which is still lower than the profile) it raises the sodium drastically.

Grain Bill:
11# Pale 2-Row
2# Roasted Barley
3.5# Smoked Malt
1# Chocolate Malt
1#Flaked Barley

Any help or ideas would be appreciated. I also am attaching my water profile if anyone is curious. Thanks I’m advance.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

2 grams of Calcium Hydroxide (also called: Pickling Lime, Slaked Lime, Ca(OH)2) plus 1.25 grams of Calcium Sulfate (Gypsum) per every 5 gallons of your mash water should get you about as close as you are going to get to your chosen water profile. You do not want to have any alkalinity in your sparge water though.

That said, how do you know that your recipe will require that much alkalinity within the mash. It certainly well may, but then again, it may not.

Be careful to wear adequate PPE, as Ca(OH)2 is dangerous stuff.

 

[mabrungard]

Don’t rely on a HCO3 target. The proper HCO3 content is that which produces a desirable mashing pH.

 

[Kinggolf83]

So it doesn’t matter at all about HCO3 as long as my mash PH is within the expected limits? Therefore I only need to make sure my calcium and chloride and sodium are in check and I should be good to go? Thanks!

 

[mabrungard]

So it doesn’t matter at all about HCO3 as long as my mash PH is within the expected limits?

Correct

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

So it doesn’t matter at all about HCO3 as long as my mash PH is within the expected limits? Therefore I only need to make sure my calcium and chloride and sodium are in check and I should be good to go? Thanks!

If you now feel no need to address alkalinity, then this is wrong thinking. Your source waters alkalinity is already fairly high, even before any adjustments. It may be OK in the mash, but it also may need to go up or down for the mash water, and it definitely needs to be all but eliminated for the sparge water.

 

[Kinggolf83]

If you now feel no need to address alkalinity, then this is wrong thinking. Your source waters alkalinity is already fairly high, even before any adjustments. It may be OK in the mash, but it also may need to go up or down for the mash water, and it definitely needs to be all but eliminated for the sparge water.

So why would this be wrong? I use lactic acid to get my Strike water to the correct pH for the Mash. I adjust all my water at once to cut down on water waste. So how does alkalinity affect the sparge water then?

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

So why would this be wrong? I use lactic acid to get my Strike water to the correct pH for the Mash. I adjust all my water at once to cut down on water waste. So how does alkalinity affect the sparge water then?

As long as your mash pH is adjusted to within the accepted range (which to me personally means 5.5 to 5.8 pH as measured at room temperature and as taken at 30 minutes into the mash) then all is well for the mash. But any remaining alkalinity within the sparge water will lead to the likelihood of tannin extraction and an undesirable astringent taste.

For an Imperial Stout, if you treat all of your strike water to ~5.4 pH in advance (to get alkalinity down to an acceptable ~10 ppm remaining for specifically the sparge water), then you will need to alkalize your mash water (potentially appreciably) to hit a mash pH mid-range target of 5.65 pH (+/- ~0.15) as measured at room temperature. You may find the mash pH to be as low as ballpark 5.0 (+/- ~0.1) for an Imperial Stout if you mash with ~pH 5.4 strike water.

Lastly, if you are going into the boil with Wort at a pH of 5.3 or greater as measured at room temperature (as you inevitably will if you follow my mash and sparge guidelines) you will also ideally need to acidify the fully collected Wort immediately pre-boil to target 5.1-5.2 pH post boil and cooling (pre-fermentation).

 

[mabrungard]

But any remaining alkalinity within the sparge water will lead to the likelihood of tannin extraction and an undesirable astringent taste.

Failing to reduce the alkalinity of sparging water creates a serious flaw in beers. I was reminded of this while at a local brewpub last night. This is an establishment where I know the brewer and he is constrained by the Owner to brew 'the English way'. He's not allowed to neutralize the hefty alkalinity of Indianapolis water. I tolerated a couple of pints of their ESB while lamenting the substantial tannin bite that overwhelmed the malt finish. There is a reason why I only go there once a year.

For anyone that thinks reducing sparging water alkalinity doesn't matter, do try it once in one of your favorite recipes and compare to an untreated version. If your tap water alkalinity is high, you'll likely note a pleasing difference. If your water has little alkalinity (like distilled or RO water), then it doesn't really matter if you treat your sparging water (its already low).

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Failing to reduce the alkalinity of sparging water creates a serious flaw in beers. I was reminded of this while at a local brewpub last night. This is an establishment where I know the brewer and he is constrained by the Owner to brew 'the English way'. He's not allowed to neutralize the hefty alkalinity of Indianapolis water. I tolerated a couple of pints of their ESB while lamenting the substantial tannin bite that overwhelmed the malt finish. There is a reason why I only go there once a year.

Wow, that's madness. I quickly looked up some Indianapolis area water reports and the alkalinity seemed to average around 185 ppm. I saw a range from 95 ppm low to 330 ppm high, but some might be city and some might be well results. No wonder you only visit them once a year. Someone needs to speak to the owner.

If the brewmaster isn't allowed to acidify the sparge water, then switching to no-sparge would potentially be merciful as to flavor potential (assuming that the same "no alkalinity adjustment policy" is not also true for mash water adjustment), but it would require the acceptance of a big hit on efficiency.

 

[Kinggolf83]

Ok so if I reduce the alkalinity for my entire strike water (both mash and sparge) how will this affect my stout? I’d rather not have off flavors from tannins. Will reducing HCO3 for the mash cause any issues?

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

[QUOTE="Kinggolf83, post: 8743397, member: 265361Will reducing HCO3 for the mash cause any issues?[/QUOTE]

Yes, you will mash at about pH 5.0, and thereby you will likely wind up with a thin and harsh tasting Imperial Stout. A higher mash pH will assist in toning down the harsh edge of the deep roasted malts (allowing the chocolate nature to better present itself), and in providing for a thicker mouthfeel.

 

[Kinggolf83]

So this is what I am thinking. 4 grams of gypsum and 5 grams of calcium chloride for the mash. This will get me a water profile as follows

CA+2: 82.5
MG+2: 10
NA+: 12
CL-: 68
SO4: 70
HCO: 75
pH: 5.53

Then I can acidify the sparge water with 4 mL of lactic acid to get he alkalinity down to help with the tannins extraction.

How does this plan sound?

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

How does this plan sound?

Sounds good!

 

[Kinggolf83]

Perfect! Thank you for both of your help. If anyone has any other suggestions with my plan I appreciate the help. Thanks again!

 

[cire]

Failing to reduce the alkalinity of sparging water creates a serious flaw in beers. I was reminded of this while at a local brewpub last night. This is an establishment where I know the brewer and he is constrained by the Owner to brew 'the English way'. He's not allowed to neutralize the hefty alkalinity of Indianapolis water. I tolerated a couple of pints of their ESB while lamenting the substantial tannin bite that overwhelmed the malt finish. There is a reason why I only go there once a year.

Indeed excess alkalinity will spoil any and every beer, but where on earth did you hear that about English brewing?

Firstly, in Britain, ESB is a name given by Fullers to one of their beers. Maybe in America it is a style according to BJCP that might be thought a British beer style?

The British might brew with a higher level of alkalinity than American homebrewers do for similar styles, but that is only enough to compensate for the higher level of calcium preferred in Britain. Alkalinity has been reduced in British breweries, mostly by mineral acids, since the 19th century. Sparge liquor, paticularly the last runnings, will necessarily have less alkalinity or more calcium to avoid extraction of unwanted products as the pH rises due to lessening buffering capacity as sugars diminish in the mashed grains.

 

[cire]

So this is what I am thinking. 4 grams of gypsum and 5 grams of calcium chloride for the mash. This will get me a water profile as follows

CA+2: 82.5
MG+2: 10
NA+: 12
CL-: 68
SO4: 70
HCO: 75
pH: 5.53

Then I can acidify the sparge water with 4 mL of lactic acid to get he alkalinity down to help with the tannins extraction.

How does this plan sound?

In practice, if fly sparging, the first drops of the sparge liquor need to be only a little less alkalinine than that used for the mash. As the sparge progresses more acid will be required to combat the increasing pH of runnings, so overall it is likely that less acid may be required than initially assumed. Any remaining natural alkalinity that passes from the mash to the kettle will drop out during the boil and pH of the boiled wort will drop accordingly. This will not be the case if the alkalinity is sodium based and will be addressed by acidification during or after the boil.