Imperial Stout advice

[Queequeg]

I'm looking at doing my first impy. I want something big, viscious, dense, complex, bittersweet and malt forward as opposed to dry and hoppy.

Something closer to RIS's like lil'b, biscotti break, even more jesus, westbrook 4th anniversary, dark lord, kate the grate etc as opposed to Old rasputin.

I want to focus on bittersweet chocolate, burnt caramel, dried fruits with some noticeable roast character/coffee. I want it smooth, decadent with big mothfeel and little hop aroma as opposed to dry, bitter and hoppy. I'm not afraid of strong stouts.

My intention is to spice it and probably barrel age as well.

Here is the grain bill I have so far for a 5Gal batch. I will probably scale down the batch to 2.5Gal.

I have estimate my mash efficiency at 67% as opposed to my normal 75% because of reduce efficiency associated with high gravity. Though I can always do a futher sparge and boil down if need be.

(sorry about the wierd measures they are converted from metric)

Recipe Specifications

Batch Size (fermenter): 19.00 l
Bottling Volume: 17.49 l
Estimated OG: 1.108 SG
Estimated FG 1.020
Estimated IBU: 69.3 IBUs
Est Mash Efficiency: 67.2 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
19 lbs 13.5 oz Pale Malt, Maris Otter (Thomas Fawcett) Grain 1 75.1 %

1 lbs 8.0 oz Chocolate Rye (Weyermann) (482.6 EBC) Grain 2 5.7 %

1 lbs 8.0 oz Oats, Flaked (2.0 EBC) Grain 3 5.7 %

15.9 oz Special B (Dingemans) (290.6 EBC) Grain 4 3.8 %

12.0 oz Roasted Barley (591.0 EBC) Grain 5 2.8 %

8.1 oz Aromatic Malt (Dingemans) (37.4 EBC) Grain 6 1.9 %

8.1 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (118.2 EBC) Grain 7 1.9 %

8.1 oz Victory Malt (biscuit) (Briess) (55.2 EB Grain 8 1.9 %

4.9 oz Carafa Special III (Weyermann) (925.9 EB Grain 9 1.2 %

1.75oz Warrior [15.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 10 55.5 IBUs

2oz Northdown [8.50 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 11 13.9 IBUs

Starter/Stir plate Dry English Ale (White Labs #WLP007) [35 Yeast 12 -


Mash Schedule (with oat husks): Single Infusion, Light Body @148F, Batch Sparge

Coccoa nibs (Quantity to be determined) last couple of weeks primary

Dry spiced with whole crushed (Quantity determined)(time at the end of primary to be determined);
sweet orange
dried ginger root
Cinnamon
cloves
nutmeg
Vanilla

(I want the spicing to be complementary and subtle not so assertive that is becomes a gimmick)

Transfer to Secondary at week 4-6

Age with Old Oak scotch whiskey barrel shards (quantity to be determined) (pre washed, boiled, then soaked in Dark Rum for 1-2 weeks, rum drained off)

Then bottle in 250ml stubbies and stored in my larder for as long as deemed necessary by impatient tasting.

Since this is considerable investment in my time and money I want to get it right, so every bit of feed back you got is welcome.

 

[Hujo]

When I did my first imp I also wanted to do everything - super big, very complex, lots of additions in the FV, and so on. It's pretty hard creating the ultimate stout on your first try, the half i bottled without the oak, whisky, cocoa and vanilla was so much better! It gets muddled quite easily, or one ingredient takes over. So my advice is to just start with a base recipe, hone it in and then you can augment from there. I think the malt bill looks ok, but i think you could simplify it a bit. When using special b, do you really need the c60 and the Victory? The special B kind of covers both bases. I haven't used the carafa iii myself, but to me it seems kind of unneccesary to use both a debittered malt and roasted barley. A complex malt bill doesn't equal complex flavor, quite the opposite. So I'd drop the last three malts and maybe bumb up the Aromatic malt just a bit. IF you're gonna spice it, be very conservative, those are powerful flavors!

Also, when using Maris Otter as a base malt, keep in mind that it's quite a bit lower in diastatic power than other pale ale malts. I haven't done the math but I think you're fine, just a reminder that it can effect your fermentability. Thinner and longer mash and/or a small wheat addition should help with that.

I'd do a 90 min boil to help with efficiency. Good luck!

 

[Queequeg]

OK fair point. I started out with that mind set, but then after ready other folks recipes got carried away especially when looking at kate the great and Dark lord clones. I can see how you can drop the carafa III.

To me crystal 60/victory is a different flavour than special B, I want the victory for the nutty quality is gives, to compliment the fruit quality of the special b. Crystal 60 is there simply because when ready about using special B most be seem to use it along side another lower colour crystal malt.

 

[BradTheGeek]

Follow the KISS method. The above reply is spot on re your grain bill. Stop with all the adjuncts/additives. Barrel age or get some good barrel chips, make it big, keep the yeast happy and enjoy.

I am finishing up my keg of my first imp stout. Solid, basic grain bill, target ABV 9%, and aged in secondary with jack daniels barrel chips. Best beer I have made yet. So good my boss wants to fund me to make more, maybe even open a brew pub.

Once you have the base down, then play with side brews and more adjuncts.

 

[Calder]

I want to focus on bittersweet chocolate, burnt caramel, dried fruits with some noticeable roast character/coffee. I want it smooth, decadent with big mothfeel and little hop aroma as opposed to dry, bitter and hoppy. I'm not afraid of strong stouts.

My intention is to spice it and probably barrel age as well.

I think I'd stick with the malt character, and not spice it. Seems you are not too sure what you want.

Amt Name Type # %/IBU
19 lbs 13.5 oz Pale Malt, Maris Otter (Thomas Fawcett) Grain 1 75.1 %
1 lbs 8.0 oz Chocolate Rye (Weyermann) (482.6 EBC) Grain 2 5.7 %
1 lbs 8.0 oz Oats, Flaked (2.0 EBC) Grain 3 5.7 %
15.9 oz Special B (Dingemans) (290.6 EBC) Grain 4 3.8 %
12.0 oz Roasted Barley (591.0 EBC) Grain 5 2.8 %
8.1 oz Aromatic Malt (Dingemans) (37.4 EBC) Grain 6 1.9 %
8.1 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (118.2 EBC) Grain 7 1.9 %
8.1 oz Victory Malt (biscuit) (Briess) (55.2 EB Grain 8 1.9 %
4.9 oz Carafa Special III (Weyermann) (925.9 EB Grain 9 1.2 %

Why Victory and Aromatic?
Why Roasted Barley and Carafa?

Just seems like you are throwing everything in. Keep it simple.

Coccoa nibs (Quantity to be determined) last couple of weeks primary

Dry spiced with whole crushed (Quantity determined)(time at the end of primary to be determined);
sweet orange
dried ginger root
Cinnamon
cloves
nutmeg
Vanilla

(I want the spicing to be complementary and subtle not so assertive that is becomes a gimmick).

With all those spices, I don't understand what you are trying to make. If you put all of them in, I think it will not be subtle.

Why do you want the spices. First time I looked at it, my first thought was of a Christmas spiced ale.

Age with Old Oak scotch whiskey barrel shards (quantity to be determined) (pre washed, boiled, then soaked in Dark Rum for 1-2 weeks, rum drained off).

Why boil. Boiling will drive off any scotch whiskey goodness that the chips will contain.

Why drain off the rum? The rum will be holding all the goodness from the oak.

I think I would use Whiskey rather than rum, since that is supposed the flavor you will get from the oak.

Not sure what the size of the oak pieces are. If they are any bigger than chips, you probably want to keep them in the liquor for as long as you can to extract some of the deeper flavors.

Since this is considerable investment in my time and money I want to get it right, so every bit of feed back you got is welcome.

You asked for feedback. Your beer, you do what you want. Good luck.

 

[m00ps]

I think it looks pretty good, complicated, but good. The only things I'd recommend is adding the orange peel at flameout. For vanilla beans, I always chop them up and toss them in ~100ml water and just barely boil it. Helps extract the flavor and sanitizes. I'd also say you'd do yourself a favor to toast 8oz of those oats in your oven and add those. Once I started toasting my oats, I always use some toasted in every beer I make with oats. It might be worth it to simplify the grain bill a bit (its am imp stout anyway so go for it), but I've found this is mostly important with Belgians and other European beers. It'll turn out good pretty much as it is I think. WHy are you mashing so low though? mash at 148 for IPAs and saisons to get them super dry. For a stout, I'd do 154-155 at the very least 152 if I had a ton of unfermentables. I don't think you'll get a good stout body at that temp...

Here's my last maple imperial breakfast stout that turned out amazing if you want to compare:

---Fermentables---
11.0lb / 69% US 2-row
1.5lb / 9% Rolled Oats
0.5lb / 3% Oven Toasted Oats
0.5lb / 3% Coffee Malt
0.75lb / 5% Chocolate
0.375lb / 2% Carafa III dehusked
0.375lb / 2% Roasted Barley
1.0lb / 6% Maple Syrup @2-3 days after pitching

---HOPS---
@60min: 1 oz Cluster
@30min: 1 oz Willamette
@5min: 1 oz Willamette

---MISC---
@5min: 4oz Cocoa Powder
@7days: 4 oz Cacao Nibs & 2 Vanilla beans (I boiled both in ~150ml water for better extraction, cooled and tossed in)
@3-4 days before bottling: 4oz Whole Bean coffee

Mash at 154 for 60min
Optional: 10min mashout at 168F

60min boil

 

[madscientist451]

Agree with above that malt bill seems busy and the spices, cocoa nibs and bourbon barrel chips soaked in rum, may just be too many flavors at one time .
You mentioned Biscotti Break imperial porter, there are clone recipes of that available, why not try the clone and then change one thing at a time until you have tweaked it the way you want? Good Luck and Cheers!

 

[Queequeg]

Ok I agree with all the comments with spicing, so well put that to one side for the moment (I had liquid Christmas pudding in mind when thinking about spicing)

As for the boilding the oak and then soaking it, I was following advice I had read online regarding using oak shards, advice intended to avoid excess tanins, but again I will shelf oak aging just for the moment.

As for the grain bill I did quite a bit of research prior making this thread and many of the stouts I listed at the beginning use malt bills more complex than mine. A few articles I also read prompted using carafa with roast barely in order to get a roast character which doesn't linger. In fact I only went back and changed the malt bill in response to articles like this one

http://beerandwinejournal.com/ris-other-malts/

which talk about quite complex malt bills.

After looking for a BB clone, I can't find one. However I did find an interview with mr twin Jeppe Jarnit-Bjergso were he says "We use 2-row as base. That’s our base for most of our beers. Besides that we use a mix of different malts such as Chocolate, Abbey, Melanoidin, Cara and some oats"

So JJB is using Abbey (which some say it a bit like Victory alongside Melanoidin malt) also the such as suggests there might be different or other things in there as well.

I will revise the malt bill today and simplfy for further feed back. Thanks for all the input so far.

 

[Hujo]

Well, if you want to do it, just do it! The spicing and oaking can be done afterwards as you see fit, and if you believe in the grain bill, go ahead. People will fault award-winning and best selling recipes. There are a lot of stupid homebrew truisms that would be best forgotten, but there are also a few people here that are pretty good at this (me NOT included), that could really help you! In the end it's just beer, and it's just random people on the internet discussing it.

 

[Queequeg]

Ok so I have been playing around with the malt bill and doing a little more reading, this is what I am currently looking at:

1lb chocolate spelt

(This is risky compared to using a more conventional roast but on reading though its only 170-240 Lovibond Weyermann describe this malt as intensely roasted, it also more coffee and bitter chocolate flavours than roast barely and is equally as bitter)

2 lb Chocolate Rye (ultra smooth malty chocolate flavour)

2 lb Abbey malt (sweetness, toffee, caramel, honey, biscuit, nuts, Fruit)

0.5lb Aromatic malt

1.5lb Flaked Oats

20lbs of Maris otter


The only thing I am worried about is if any crystal is necessary, I hoping the Abbey malt will provide enough sweetness, especially when used so generously.

 

[m00ps]

I wouldnt add any crystal. The Abbey malt seems very similar to caramunich or special B and both of those are plenty sweet. Plus you've got Maris Otter as the base which will help with perceived sweetness.

Never seen or heard of chocolate spelt before. That's a new one for me...

 

[Queequeg]

The chocolate spelt tastes very roasted compared to say British chocolate or chocolate eye malt. It is also quite intensely flavoured like dark chocolate. Not very acrid but it does have some burnt qualities.

 

[TxBigHops]

Ok so I have been playing around with the malt bill and doing a little more reading, this is what I am currently looking at:

1lb chocolate spelt

(This is risky compared to using a more conventional roast but on reading though its only 170-240 Lovibond Weyermann describe this malt as intensely roasted, it also more coffee and bitter chocolate flavours than roast barely and is equally as bitter)

2 lb Chocolate Rye (ultra smooth malty chocolate flavour)

2 lb Abbey malt (sweetness, toffee, caramel, honey, biscuit, nuts, Fruit)

0.5lb Aromatic malt

1.5lb Flaked Oats

20lbs of Maris otter


The only thing I am worried about is if any crystal is necessary, I hoping the Abbey malt will provide enough sweetness, especially when used so generously.

Hey, wondering if you ever made this, and what recipe you ended up using?

 

[Queequeg]

Yeah its in the bottle carbonating at the moment. Didn't go with that exact recipe in the end. I emailed the evil twin and he share the malt bill for little B with me but asked me not to pass it on.

I made a few tweaks of my own to emphasis the roast character, but its similar to the bill I was proposing but has lots of dark crystal and aromatic malt. Its really heavy on the specialty grains.

I added 100% chocolate to the boil and a handful of dried chillies to the primary after fermentation finished at FG 1.027

I then barrel aged in secondary for 2 months before bottling. I bottled last week end.

Initial tasting was good, plenty of chocolate and liquorice with some pepper from the chillies and some smoke from the bourbon barrel cubes.

Nice. I do some proper tasting notes and pics when its finished.

 

[TxBigHops]

Thanks. I brewed an RIS in June for this winter, but realized I didn't allow for enough time for aging and bottle conditioning. Two months in the bottle and it just has a touch of carbonation. I'll be making next winter's version in January or February. I'll tweak it some, so looking to see what has worked well for others. I'll look forward to seeing your tasting notes.