Impatient Brewer Needs Upgrade?

[Soviet]

Fellow Brewers:

I need you to be brutally honest and critical with me... I don't know if I NEED an upgrade, but I've got about a $1000 bucks saved up and I'm thinking of spending it on building/buying a new brewing rig.

Here's my situation: I've been all-grain brewing for two years on the simplest setup: turkey fryer + 36 quart stainless stockpot & rubbermail cooler mashtun. I do a single batch sparge and my efficiency is usually about 67% on beers under 1.065 OG and drops to 63% on beers over 1.065 OG. I manually lift my kettle and pour hot water into my mashtun, and likewise, I pour the cooled (I use basic immersion chiller) wort into my better bottle fermentors. I've got a single-tap converted mini-fridge kegerator for serving beer. I don't know how to weld and I'm not handy. These are the facts.

My pain: I'm the world's most impatient brewer. I NEED to have a beer on tap at all times, so I brew 3 times a month minimum. It takes my family 2 weeks to go through a corny keg of beer. I recently poured nearly a full keg of Tripel because I was convinced I ruined it—only to later find out it just needed more aging because it was so high gravity.

Do I need a new system? Maybe? I'm definitely going to buy a new fridge so that I can hold about 6 corny kegs and have a bigger pipeline of beers/more beers on tap. But I'd also like to toy with the idea of making 10 gallon batches, split them, using different strains of yeast, compare, etc. Also, fly would up my efficiency closer to 80% which would just be icing on the cake. I've been looking at a lot of brewing porn lately and I like this guy's RIMS 2 vessel setup: [ame]http://youtu.be/Yqp2XDb2AyI[/ame]

My questions are as follows:

1. Can I build a decent 2 vessel RIMS system (like in the video above) for $1000 bucks?
2. What's the real benefit to recirculating your mash, anyway?
3. Does one separate the grain from the sweet liquor in the same way I do now with my rubbermaid MLT on this type of rims setup (i.e. is there some kind of filter there)?
4. My brew day usually takes about 5 hours with cleanup.. will doing this save me any time or work?
5. Is buying stainless stockpots like this 62 quart one: (http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0009JXYUA/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20) and then modifying them to add thermometers and valves cheaper than buying 1/2 barrel kegs and doing the same (where do people buy kegs/keggles anyway—besides renting them and just not returning them)?
6. I want to brew more beer/better beer, and my beer has been pretty well received so far—am I stupid for thinking about this kind of move right now?

 

[HenryVance3]

In response to #5 I found my kegs from Alaska Brewing in Juneau near where I live. I f you live in an area that freezes in the winter the odds are there is a distributer that has had frozen kegs he can no longer use. Mine cost me 20$ each and they were in great condition. I followed a similar jig and it worked great


If you want higher efficiency forget about a 2 vessel system, although more economical and smaller footprint you sacrifice efficiency.

If you don't want to weld a brew sculpture consider something like this to cook on.

http://www.amazon.com/King-Kooker-CS42-Portable-Triple-Burner/dp/B001KFO31G

 

[Phunhog]

The first thing I would put money towards is some sort of fermentation temperature control. After that I would buy a grain mill so you can buy your grain in bulk and save some money. I have a pre-fab/DIY direct fired RIMS. I use keggles. I think a complete set up could cost you up to 1K but probably a little less. You need a pump(s), bigger IC, stainless fittings, keggles, etc...
If you want to do 10 gallon batches why not just get (2) 10 gallons Igloo coolers and convert one into a MLT and the other into a HLT and make one Keggle. You could have a pretty sweet gravity fed set up for 400-500 dollars.

 

[HenryVance3]

Recirculating mash reduces your efficiency but increases your clarity in my experience.

 

[Seven]

I need you to be brutally honest and critical with me...

My pain: I'm the world's most impatient brewer.

I want to brew more beer/better beer, and my beer has been pretty well received so far—am I stupid for thinking about this kind of move right now?

My brutally honest suggestion is to be more patient. Yeast don't follow man-made schedules or abide by any lack of human patience. You can have all the brewing hardware in the world but you won't make great beer without patience.

Another suggestion would be to build up a pipeline so you'll always have beers aging and ready to put on tap. It's amazing what an extra couple of weeks or months in a keg will do for a beer. Get more fermentors and kegs if necessary so you can build a pipeline.

Good luck!

 

[JuanMoore]

I manually lift my kettle and pour hot water into my mashtun, and likewise, I pour the cooled (I use basic immersion chiller) wort into my better bottle fermentors.

You need a pump IMO.

1. Can I build a decent 2 vessel RIMS system (like in the video above) for $1000 bucks?

If you're handy and patient, yes. But you've already mentioned that you're not very handy.

2. What's the real benefit to recirculating your mash, anyway?

Partly eliminating temperature stratification during the mash, and partly getting clearer wort. No really important advantages.

3. Does one separate the grain from the sweet liquor in the same way I do now with my rubbermaid MLT on this type of rims setup (i.e. is there some kind of filter there)?

Yes. You need a manifold/false bottom/braid/etc. to separate the grain from the wort.

4. My brew day usually takes about 5 hours with cleanup.. will doing this save me any time or work?

Maybe a little bit of time, but probably not much. A pump will save you the work (and danger) of transferring hot liquids by lifting pots. I think 5 hours w/ clean up is pretty standard for an all grain brew day regardless of the system you're brewing on.

5. Is buying stainless stockpots like this 62 quart one: (http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0009JXYUA/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20) and then modifying them to add thermometers and valves cheaper than buying 1/2 barrel kegs and doing the same (where do people buy kegs/keggles anyway—besides renting them and just not returning them)?

Keggles are usually much cheaper, but can be hard to source, especially if you want to obtain them legally. Try calling distributors and breweries in your area and see if they'll sell you an older keg that's getting ready to be retired.

6. I want to brew more beer/better beer, and my beer has been pretty well received so far—am I stupid for thinking about this kind of move right now?

A new system probably won't help you make better beer, but upgrading parts of your brewery might be a good idea anyway. At the very least get a pump and mount it in a toolbox to make your brew day easier and less dangerous. It sounds like you also want to increase capacity, which I also think is a good idea. If you want better beer, focus on fermentation temp control, yeast health/pitching rates, and aeration.

I suggest spending that money on things like a pump, O2 system, expanding your kegging set up, a stir plate, a grain mill, larger kettle, etc. You can always use those components as part of a RIMS or HERMS build at a later time. Just my $0.02 for whatever it's worth.

 

[bottlebomber]

It sounds like you need to get a little more skilled with the equipment you've got, before you move on to bigger and better. IMHO the brewer makes the beer, not the equipment, and those efficiencys you just quoted are really really low. I have basically the same situation you do, and get 75-80% every brew. Id hone in your process, then think about new bling

 

[Soviet]

Thanks for all the comments from everyone. Some folks pointed out a better system won't make a better brewer anymore than a good tennis racquet will make you a better tennis player.

We're in total agreement about this. Although I've only been home brewing for two years, I'm not a TOTAL newbie. I've been doing my diligence on reading about the craft (John Palmer, Zainasheff, Gordon Strong) and mastering my current equipment. I brew more often than most of the brewers I know.

Since it was mentioned before—I DO use fermentation control (small chest freezer w/ temp controller). I also make appropriate starters, etc (I think the basics are covered). As far as the efficiencies I get, I've been getting for a long time consistently—that's not my biggest concern because I can spend the extra $1.35-$5.00 a batch for extra grain. I don't think it's because I'm doing something "wrong" with my system. Basically, I do a single batch sparge. I could probably get a bit more efficient if I split that into multiple batch sparges.

Someone else mentioned that a two vessel system like the one in the video I linked above has some disadvantages vs. a 3 vessel system. Can anyone elaborate more on that and why it works that way? Thanks for all your comments and keep them coming!

 

[shortyjacobs]

Someone else mentioned that a two vessel system like the one in the video I linked above has some disadvantages vs. a 3 vessel system. Can anyone elaborate more on that and why it works that way? Thanks for all your comments and keep them coming!

They probably weren't looking closely enough.

What he really has there is a 3 vessel system. The bucket he drains his runnings into is the third vessel. Instead of having a seperate HLT and BK, he uses his BK as his HLT for the fly sparge. He drains his runnings into the bucket, and then dumps that into his BK once the sparge is done. This is no different than a standard 3 vessel system...just has more work involved. You'll get the same efficiency there as with a "standard" fly sparge setup.

A "true" 2 vessel system works in one of two ways. At the end of the mash, you heat water up in your BK. You can then:

1. Dump all the BK water into the MLT, (assuming it's big enough), then vorlauf and transfer all the runnings, at once, to the BK. This is basically a single batch sparge without draining the MLT first....and you'll suffer efficiency-wise because you're not really "rinsing" the grain with fresh water.

2. Run your BK water into your MLT, while simultaneously pumping wort from the MLT back up to the BK. Basically, recirculate the whole mess until gravity is equal in MLT and BK. Then, pump everything up into the BK. This is basically what happens in a "countertop brutus 20" system. Again, you can suffer lower efficiency here because you aren't rinsing with fresh water.

The reality is though, people get the efficiencies they get. Some fly spargers only get 70%, some double-batch spargers get 80%, and some countertop brutus folks get 80%. Edit: actually, the limit on coutertop brutus is about 75%, same with BIAB. A LOT of it has to do with grain crush, manifold design, sparge arm design, etc.

Edit: 3rd way to run a 2 vessel setup is like a BIAB, but separated into two vessels. You mash with the full pre-boil volume, recirculating through both the BK and the MLT the entire time. This means your MLT doesn't have to be nearly as big, as some of the water is in the BK. Don't even mention efficiency when talking with BIAB guys, you'll start a war ;-).

 

[Soviet]

The first thing I would put money towards is some sort of fermentation temperature control. After that I would buy a grain mill so you can buy your grain in bulk and save some money. I have a pre-fab/DIY direct fired RIMS. I use keggles. I think a complete set up could cost you up to 1K but probably a little less. You need a pump(s), bigger IC, stainless fittings, keggles, etc...
If you want to do 10 gallon batches why not just get (2) 10 gallons Igloo coolers and convert one into a MLT and the other into a HLT and make one Keggle. You could have a pretty sweet gravity fed set up for 400-500 dollars.

I could, but how much cooler would it be if I could "ballpark" my dough-in water temp, and then have the PID/Pump/Heating Element just get me to the programmed temp, EXACTLY on the money each time? Plus, the ability to heat my mash/do step mashing gives me more control of my brewing process.

 

[MooMooBrew]

Fellow Brewers:

I need you to be brutally honest and critical with me... I don't know if I NEED an upgrade, but I've got about a $1000 bucks saved up and I'm thinking of spending it on building/buying a new brewing rig.

Here's my situation: I've been all-grain brewing for two years on the simplest setup: turkey fryer + 36 quart stainless stockpot & rubbermail cooler mashtun. I do a single batch sparge and my efficiency is usually about 67% on beers under 1.065 OG and drops to 63% on beers over 1.065 OG. I manually lift my kettle and pour hot water into my mashtun, and likewise, I pour the cooled (I use basic immersion chiller) wort into my better bottle fermentors. I've got a single-tap converted mini-fridge kegerator for serving beer. I don't know how to weld and I'm not handy. These are the facts.

My pain: I'm the world's most impatient brewer. I NEED to have a beer on tap at all times, so I brew 3 times a month minimum. It takes my family 2 weeks to go through a corny keg of beer. I recently poured nearly a full keg of Tripel because I was convinced I ruined it—only to later find out it just needed more aging because it was so high gravity.

Do I need a new system? Maybe? I'm definitely going to buy a new fridge so that I can hold about 6 corny kegs and have a bigger pipeline of beers/more beers on tap. But I'd also like to toy with the idea of making 10 gallon batches, split them, using different strains of yeast, compare, etc. Also, fly would up my efficiency closer to 80% which would just be icing on the cake. I've been looking at a lot of brewing porn lately and I like this guy's RIMS 2 vessel setup: http://youtu.be/Yqp2XDb2AyI

My questions are as follows:

1. Can I build a decent 2 vessel RIMS system (like in the video above) for $1000 bucks?
2. What's the real benefit to recirculating your mash, anyway?
3. Does one separate the grain from the sweet liquor in the same way I do now with my rubbermaid MLT on this type of rims setup (i.e. is there some kind of filter there)?
4. My brew day usually takes about 5 hours with cleanup.. will doing this save me any time or work?
5. Is buying stainless stockpots like this 62 quart one: (http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0009JXYUA/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20) and then modifying them to add thermometers and valves cheaper than buying 1/2 barrel kegs and doing the same (where do people buy kegs/keggles anyway—besides renting them and just not returning them)?
6. I want to brew more beer/better beer, and my beer has been pretty well received so far—am I stupid for thinking about this kind of move right now?

1: if you are not handy, i recommend becoming handy, it helps for most beer related activities, and saves you paying someone else who is handy. That being said, without being handy, you would be buying a herms/rims system, and those can run waaay over $1k.

4/5/6: so you want (note not NEED as you wrote) lots of beer on hand and brew 3 times a month, eh? And you're impatient. Your issue isn't how long your brew session is. Your issue is a matter of volume. pumps and whirlygigs and rims are all find and well. IMHO, you need some 15 gal pots, like bad. It doesn't matter what kind, keggle or kettle.
In the same 5 hours it takes you to brew 5 gallons of beer, I brew 20. therefore I am 4 times more efficient than your system in terms of production, my brew day is 1.25 hours per 5 gallons.
If you are concerned about having a variety, run an extract batch (10 gal) and an AG batch in tandem. That's what i do. My problem was that i wanted to try lots of different beers, this method , plus a whole heap of corny kegs, has allowed me to brew 2x a month and have a backlog of beer aging (so i don't dump a worthy tripple).
From volume brewing, and lots of notes and reading, will spawn better beer brewing (also IMHO).

so if i were in your situation, I'd upgrade with another burner, 2 15 gal pots w/ spigots, 10+gal mash and hlt, and as many cornies you can get your hands on with whatever is left over.

just my $.02.

MOOMOO