IDEA: Ultimate Mash Tun

[sudbuster]

EDIT: I hate when I come off too harsh. This post was about to be a thread killer. My apologies. Carry on.

You're kidding, right? This is your thread, pay no attention to detractors, some of us are all ears. Whip out the TIG and let's get welding........

 

[Cede]

Your idea looks very interesting but I'm afraid you could blow your wort.

Last week end I talked about steam mashing with a pal, because I'm about to rebuild my little brewery.
He's a master brewer with diplomas and so on from Germany so I think he knows what he's talking about.

About the false bottom evrything's fine, it looks like it's far more better than any other filtering method.
About steam, he warned me about scorching the wort even if the steam is not overheated, because heat transfer is greater than with water, it could harm enzymes and so on.
From his point of view, you have to recirculate while heating with steam.

After all those warnings, he agreed that nothing's better than build and see

The only drawback to your system is how to recirculate wort while injecting steam.

The idea of concentric tubing is great but you could separate steam input and steam output by doing alternatively one ring for steam another one for wort.

I might try that

well these are just my thoughts.

You're doing great job

 

[eddie]

Instead of using paddles, wouldn't it be simpler and just as effective to use something like a spiral mixer set-up?

 

[Yuri_Rage]

Your idea looks very interesting but I'm afraid you could blow your wort.

I already use steam quite effectively, actually. There's a link in my signature.

As for the spiral mixer idea - how exactly is that simpler? I want to get the outer paddles as close to the outside of the mash tun as possible while keeping the inner paddles somewhat overlapped with the outer ones so that I stir the entire mash very effectively. Designing a spiral that large seems like a nightmare to me...

 

[Cede]

Yep, I know you use it for a certain time now, and it's because of you that I'm going to use steam for my new setup

I might be to afraid of ruining wort by overheating....

 

[eddie]

As for the spiral mixer idea - how exactly is that simpler? I want to get the outer paddles as close to the outside of the mash tun as possible while keeping the inner paddles somewhat overlapped witht the outer ones so that I stir the entire mash very effectively. Designing a spiral that large seems like a nightmare to me...

At the time I made the suggestion, I was thinking that using a single tube of copper formed into a spiral would be easier to form and use than forming and plumbing half a dozen paddles attached to a shaft. I hindsight, it does seem to be rather foolish. I think any tubing available in coil stock would be too soft to stand up to the pressures and would twist and break in the mash and making something out of 1/2 pipe would be more labor intensive than using the paddle design to begin with.

It was just an idea. Unfortunately, a very bad one.

 

[kladue]

Is the design of the paddles going to robust enough to do the initial dough in or just enough to stir the mash after. Are you using continous steam feed during steps or cycling the steam in 15-30 second steps to try to reduce localized overheating during the mixing and reduce the rate of temperature rise and overshoot.

 

[Yuri_Rage]

Is the design of the paddles going to robust enough to do the initial dough in or just enough to stir the mash after. Are you using continous steam feed during steps or cycling the steam in 15-30 second steps to try to reduce localized overheating during the mixing and reduce the rate of temperature rise and overshoot.

My intent is that the paddles and motor will be strong enough to stir the mash at any point in the process (including dough-in).

Only time will tell what the best method of steam injection is. I like the idea of short bursts, kladue - that seems like an excellent method if I find that constant injection creates overshoot or scorch issues.

 

[nabs478]

Looks like a fun project.

My only concern is that it looks like you have a lot of paddles, that have a big area. Its hard to see whether they are slanted or vertical in your picture, but if they are vertical, and are as big as you have pictured, I would be a little worried that they will rotate the whole mash, rather than stirring it.

 

[Grimsawyer]

Ever since I saw Kladue's system and marvled at it's complexity I've thought about direct steam injection. It dosn't have to be overly complicated with switches gauges and flow meters(oh my!). I have some gear to go before I make the leap but It could be done as easily as instead of moving my wort through my HERMS coils run it from the pump through a "steam injection T" and right back into my mash tun after running through some kind of thermometer(maybe another T, wort comes in one side temp probe goes in another and wort comes out the 3rd port) 11 minutes from 130*F to 156*F without taking the wort above 156*F... no brainer there AND it is nice and quiet. No popping or snapping! I don't have any way of generating steam as of yet and I'm getting tired of tweaking my brewery. Just want to brew enough to be prepared for when the zombies come... (which is important after all) I need to get a CC wort chiller, an oxygen tank, stirr plate and a new fridge or chest freezer first. AFTER that... I might be playing with my brewery again and when I do I'm going that route for absolute sure. :rockin: Although a way to stirr my mash other than my giant SS spoon wouldn't be a bad thing either.

 

[LouT]

I already use steam quite effectively, actually. There's a link in my signature.

As for the spiral mixer idea - how exactly is that simpler? I want to get the outer paddles as close to the outside of the mash tun as possible while keeping the inner paddles somewhat overlapped with the outer ones so that I stir the entire mash very effectively. Designing a spiral that large seems like a nightmare to me...

Are you fitting to an existing mash tun? If not, find a snowblower, use the auger (or 1/2 of the auger) and gearbox from it, build your mash tun to fit the o.d. of the auger. Easier than building spiral mixer from scratch, although not stainless steel.

I was actually curious when I read the first post of this thread, as to why the paddles are necessary vs. some simpler means of mixing - recirculating pump with perhaps a vortex effect to keep the entire wort moving gently without aeration...
Am I missing something?

What I see as the downside to your paddle system (or even spiral mixer) is complexity: large # of parts, need for a 3 or more legged bearing support that attaches/detaches to the top rim of the mash tun, possible belt or gear reduction from motor to axle of mixer, etc. What about a system that "agitates" the mash tun by moving it briefly counterclockwise, then clockwise, etc., and you could put some fixed vanes on the inside of the mash tun? Simpler but hopefully same end result... You might even be able to use a used washing machine for a bunch of components...

 

[Grimsawyer]

Are you fitting to an existing mash tun? If not, find a snowblower, use the auger (or 1/2 of the auger) and gearbox from it, build your mash tun to fit the o.d. of the auger. Easier than building spiral mixer from scratch, although not stainless steel.

I was actually curious when I read the first post of this thread, as to why the paddles are necessary vs. some simpler means of mixing - recirculating pump with perhaps a vortex effect to keep the entire wort moving gently without aeration...
Am I missing something?

What I see as the downside to your paddle system (or even spiral mixer) is complexity: large # of parts, need for a 3 or more legged bearing support that attaches/detaches to the top rim of the mash tun, possible belt or gear reduction from motor to axle of mixer, etc. What about a system that "agitates" the mash tun by moving it briefly counterclockwise, then clockwise, etc., and you could put some fixed vanes on the inside of the mash tun? Simpler but hopefully same end result... You might even be able to use a used washing machine for a bunch of components...

YEAH!!! Retrofit a WASHING MACHINE!!!!!!!! WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!! man, spin cycle would ROCK FOR SPARGING!!!!!!!!!!!!:rockin: :rockin: :rockin: :rockin:

 

[WBC]

Yuri. Just do your thing. You will have good results.

(1.) The only thing I can see right off that might be a problem is with that many paddles the whole mash mass may spin as one. You will just have to experiment with this.

(2.) The excess heat below the strainer is the other problem but again you will have to experiment as no one has enough experiance to predict the outcome beforehand.

 

[Skrimpy]

Ill test one too! If you don't send me one post the plans so I can build one!

 

[Skrimpy]

Not to bring up old subjects here but I think maybe if you are worried about getting good mixing or not getting enough steam because the manifold is setting below the false bottom you could add a second manifold. Instead of trying to engineer steam injections through the paddles why not put the second manifold for steam injections between the paddles (of course leave enough room between them so they don't catch on it)?

 

[Yuri_Rage]

Keep the ideas flowing. I have a bunch of my own along with incorporating some already posted. I'll definitely post pics, but this is going to be a little expensive, so it might take a while (but not as long as those damn conicals I've been sitting on!).

 

[kladue]

I am a bit curious as to what you are going to use the steam mash system for, protien rests, step up from starch conversion to dextrine production temps, mashout?

 

[Yuri_Rage]

I am a bit curious as to what you are going to use the steam mash system for, protien rests, step up from starch conversion to dextrine production temps, mashout?

All of the above!

 

[Whiskey]

You would probably need a somewhat powerful motor torque-wise to spin the paddles slowly through the wet grains. Neat idea though.

 

[Yorg]

Hi folks,
I have been working on a steam system myself.
My approach to mixing is to use a 'prop' style mixer whose diameter is about 2/3 to 3/4 the diameter of the tun. This rotates to push the mash down in the centre of the tun, leaving it nowhere to go when it hits the false bottom but up the sides, around the top and back through the centre again. The object, obviously, is a very good mix.
I use a rotisserie motor, which revolves at about 15 rpm. Given four blades on the prop, the effective rpm is 60 rpm. This I believe will be enough to not scorch / negatively affect the mash.
Two 1/2' copper tube prongs descending vertically from the lid of the tun, and diametrically opposed, deliver steam from a pressure cooker through a steam valve which is controlled by a PID controller.
Thermometer is in a regular thermowell in the side of the tun, half way around the tun between the two prongs.
Still prototyping with water, but will post when I've done a mash trial - hopefully within the next two weeks.
Cheers,
Yorg.

 

[Pedro-]

my god yuri, your a maniac. I love it!

 

[Philip1993]

My $0.02 WAG;

Excepting the steam input, what you are designing is much like a homemade ice cream churn. Since those have been remained unchanged (except power source) for nearly a century, I would assume that the paddle design employed is the dominant of several less effective designs.

 

[LouT]

For the mixing, if the steam could enter from the top opening, could you go with something like this:
http://www.constructioncomplete.com...rtarMixers-BuffaloToolsCME35ConcreteMixer.jpg

 

[WortMonger]

I'm so interested to see what Yuir finds out with this project.

 

[Grimsawyer]

I'm so interested to see what Yuir finds out with this project.

Speaking if which, how's this coming along?

 

[Yuri_Rage]

Still in the idea stages. I think I have a pretty good direction for it. I'm going to design it pretty close to the depiction, but the paddles will be fewer, as suggested elsewhere in this thread. I think I'm also going to see about injecting the steam through the rotating assembly rather than the bottom (though I'll likely still use a two-port manifold, just for overall design flexibility).

Mostly, I have to finish a few other projects and scrape together a few hundred bucks before tackling this one. I can't wait, either!

 

[Skrimpy]

I keep checking back here to see what the status is. I suppose that if you had done something at this point you would have posted. Man I wish I could weld. I would have a sculpture in no time flat, instead I waste my time trying to find kegs, and then if I finally find them I will waste my time trying to find someone to do the welding.

 

[sanders5x]

I plan on building something like this in the spring, I am taking a welding class at college. Its not related to my major but then I am graduating this spring and you gotta take a couple of the underwater basketweaving type classes for fun. I want to convert my brewery to all SS and the first thing I am gonna build is a hlt to keep my hot liqueur at the right temp - good bye stove top multiple pan set up! Do you think this design could be incorporated with a false bottom? I would like to keep the mash in one spot. This web page: http://brewingtechniques.com/library/backissues/issue2.6/put.html
looks like a good start for the paddle design

 

[Yuri_Rage]

For those of you holding your breath to see how this turns out...don't. All of my projects are pretty much on hold until this summer. I'm moving in a couple of months, and I need to focus on selling the house and getting things ready to go. As soon as I move into the new place, I plan on a major brewery upgrade, to include this mash tun.

 

[WortMonger]

Well then F-you and good luck all in the same sentence. LOL, I hear you. I am selling my house in Lubbock and can't do much until. I am like an addict though Yuri, your shizzle has me feaming for more. Good luck on the home sale and hope your market is good there. I will be hawking this thread to wait for the build

 

[LouT]

Are you planning to bring the steam in from above, through the paddles, and make the vessel turn, or are you planning to turn/spin the steam carrying paddles - I guess option 1 seems simpler...
Glad to see you've stuck with this idea, I'm looking forward to seeing the end result!

 

[Yuri_Rage]

Steaming, spinning paddles seems like the best idea for eliminating hot spots. I think I'm going to attempt that. I will likely still put two input/output valves on the manifold just to keep flexibility in the design.

 

[HenryHill]

I foresee difficulty, expense and possible danger in a rotary coupling capable of steam pressure.

Why not just scale down a normal **************** design that uses steam in a double wall tun, and simply paddle stir to equalize the mash temperature?

 

[WortMonger]

I had thought about a home brew steam jacket at one time way back when I was designing my first next brewery, lol. I wondered, if taking a 50-55 gallon open head barrel with lid and lid lock, and cutting a hole in the lid big enough for a 30 gallon open head barrel to fit and then be welded (open in of 30 to lid of 50-55)? If both were stainless steel, and you welded/plumbed the steam-in port and what ever relief valve system you had in mind into the lid and floor, would the barrels be able to hold much pressure? Does it even take anything more than steam rushing through the jacket? I haven't seen a jacketed system unless glycol counts, lol.

Now, I think it would be great to have a steam jacketed mash tun, but I think it is way more economical to blast steam directly from the bottom while being stirred. I think your temperature rise would take a little longer to achieve. I don't know about how steam couplers stand up or anything like that (as earlier with my knowledge on steam jackets). It does sound more complicated to send steam through the paddle; when (as I have read the trials in threads here) steam directly injected gives its energy to the wort so fast, heat rises all on its own, and it is easy to inject from the bottom and simply automatically stir just like Yuri's picture. I really want to try this on my system as soon as I build another stirrer. This time not out of copper$$$, and for myself not my best friend!!!

 

[Yuri_Rage]

I foresee difficulty, expense and possible danger in a rotary coupling capable of steam pressure.

Why not just scale down a normal **************** design that uses steam in a double wall tun, and simply paddle stir to equalize the mash temperature?

I foresee fun!

Not so sure that a double-walled steam mash tun would be a whole lot easier...

 

[mr x]

I foresee difficulty, expense and possible danger in a rotary coupling capable of steam pressure

Nah, piece of cake.:rockin:

 

[Yuri_Rage]

Like I posted earlier this week...my projects have hit "virtual land" for now. Here are a few renderings of the "Ultimate Mash Tun." I still have to model the stir paddle support and drive system and the fittings on the tun exterior. The copper manifold is upside down, showing the slits in the bottom (most likely, the actual manifold will have holes, but slits were easier to model).

Certainly, the design is subject to change, but this should give you a pretty good idea of the finished product.

 

[Grimsawyer]

I've got a question. The steam generated. Is it all going to become liquid or will there be any air trapped under the false bottom? I only ask this because I've had my fair share of fun priming a high temp, food grade, magneticly coupled pump once or twice from air trapped under a false bottom. Not fun.

 

[Yuri_Rage]

I've got a question. The steam generated. Is it all going to become liquid or will there be any air trapped under the false bottom? I only ask this because I've had my fair share of fun priming a high temp, food grade, magneticly coupled pump once or twice from air trapped under a false bottom. Not fun.

There is no air in steam - it's solely water vapor. As soon as the superheated steam hits the 150°-ish degree mash water, it changes state back to water (giving up its heat energy to the mash). No chance for HSA, no chance for trapped air pockets forming.

 

[Yorg]

Yuri,
Any more thoughts on steaming + spinning paddles?
And did you get anywhere with Ph signal into automation gear?