What?? You guys didn't at least have a party while you were waiting in line? That's what camelbacks are for!!
I tried Pliny the Younger
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What?? You guys didn't at least have a party while you were waiting in line? That's what camelbacks are for!!
I had it a few years ago...just walked right into the place, sat down, got lunch and a younger. It looks like that doesn't happen anymore.
Since I grew up there, I visit my parents and RR often. Honestly I like PTE much better. The PTY alcohol presence mutes the hops quite a bit. It does have a nice hoppy smoothness, but its way over hyped.
I'll take one of my Dipa's in my backyard any day over a 5 hour wait on the sidewalk for this stuff.
Since I grew up there, I visit my parents and RR often. Honestly I like PTE much better. The PTY alcohol presence mutes the hops quite a bit. It does have a nice hoppy smoothness, but its way over hyped.
I'll take one of my Dipa's in my backyard any day over a 5 hour wait on the sidewalk for this stuff.
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I agree. Maybe if they would distribute out this way us East Coasters could see what all the fuss is about.
In the meantime, I'll enjoy my own brew that is the best IPA I've ever had, and I don't have to wait in line for it.
WissahickonBrew
Well-Known Member
Philly is one of the chosen to receive the much discussed PTY. I checked around to see if any pubs within my circle of reach was pouring the brew. Two places indicated they kicked their kegs within 25 minutes of tapping. Some places reported PTY fans started a line 4 hours before the bars opened in order to ensure a glass. Last Wednesday a bar within walking distance of my office was tapping a keg at 3:30pm. I made my way over at about 3:50 and there was no line. The bar was full, but not packed. I easily found an empty stool and the barmaid asked my preference. I said I'd like a Pliny if it's still available. She returned with an 8 ounce pour and asked for $10! I expected a ridiculous price but even that caught me off guard. Another patron asked for one right after me but the keg was kicked, the lady behind the bar said I grabbed the last one!
It was ok, but no where near became my favorite IPA. I LOVE IPA's! To me it tasted caramel-ish, sweeter than I expected. Hops were prominent of course, but not in a crisp, clean way. Without the hoopla, and if I tried it out of curiosity among other beers, I would have tasted it and moved on. Russian River has a better marketing strategy than beer making skills. Pliny the Elder however, is VERY good and I would order it before PTY any day!
It was ok, but no where near became my favorite IPA. I LOVE IPA's! To me it tasted caramel-ish, sweeter than I expected. Hops were prominent of course, but not in a crisp, clean way. Without the hoopla, and if I tried it out of curiosity among other beers, I would have tasted it and moved on. Russian River has a better marketing strategy than beer making skills. Pliny the Elder however, is VERY good and I would order it before PTY any day!
Weezy
Well-Known Member
Funny but when I try a new beer and really enjoy it, maybe i'll research it a little to see if there are clone recipes out there. Half of the search is just to help train the palate to learn different malt and hop flavors. Anyway, I'll invariably end up hitting beeradvocate or ratebeer and see a 2/5 or something... and I wonder, if it had a RR label, what would it rate?
I'm starting to believe this is a very good beer with a amazingly stupid amount of hype.
It's enough already. My buddy flew from here on the east coast all the way out there for a b-day west coast brewery tour. I think he waited 2 hours in line. That's about as long as I would wait, and even that's stretching it. He said it was amazing, but I think he was under the hype spell.
He even brought back some PTE, and while it's a well crafted and smooth DIPA, I've had as good or better for my tastes.
Hate to sound biased, but give me some Hill Farmstead any and everyday over anything else I've tried. That place is worth every bit of hype. I waited 2 hours last time I was up there, but at least I was able to get tasters of whatever I wanted while waiting, and I walked away with growlers of different beers. It's just a popular place no matter what they have on tap, not just for 2 weeks of the year.
Vermont is the best kept secret for great beer. There, I've said it. Now everyone knows where to get the best beer in the world right now. Just don't tell anyone I said it!!
It's enough already. My buddy flew from here on the east coast all the way out there for a b-day west coast brewery tour. I think he waited 2 hours in line. That's about as long as I would wait, and even that's stretching it. He said it was amazing, but I think he was under the hype spell.
He even brought back some PTE, and while it's a well crafted and smooth DIPA, I've had as good or better for my tastes.
Hate to sound biased, but give me some Hill Farmstead any and everyday over anything else I've tried. That place is worth every bit of hype. I waited 2 hours last time I was up there, but at least I was able to get tasters of whatever I wanted while waiting, and I walked away with growlers of different beers. It's just a popular place no matter what they have on tap, not just for 2 weeks of the year.
Vermont is the best kept secret for great beer. There, I've said it. Now everyone knows where to get the best beer in the world right now. Just don't tell anyone I said it!!
No offense, but you live in New Hampshire...so don't assume that the RR pub is not a popular place the other 50 weeks of the year, because that'd be flat wrong. It also is a place you can get fantastic beers of many different styles in tasters, full pours, and growlers. Sure, some sour beers are off limits for growlers, but I think that's understandable.
I also don't know the pub you referred too, but I'm sure it's great as well.
You contributed post #46 to exactly the kind of threads that "hype" this and other beers.
The point for those of you who are bothered by the hype is to stop hyping. Whether it's facebook, instagram, HBT, Twitter, text messaging, email, or bragging...hype begins and ends with consumers the vast majority of the time.
RR did little else other then announce the release, which any retailer is entitled to do. The news vans were there because of the folks like those I met that flew in from Chicago, willing to fly across the country, wait in line for hours on end in a deluge, just to get a taste. I see just as much hype for dark lord every year, but I don't hate on 3Floyds for the fact I'll probably never get to taste that beer...I just seek out the goods (like you with HF) where I have access to them.
The hype has nothing to do with the beer really, and everything to do with people who would start threads on HBT and nurse them along strategically while villifying a brewer for not going into debt so they can have easier access to that brewers beers.
I'm a little tired of reading the RR bashing, since so much of it seems to be driven by little more then sour grapes.
Fordmi
Well-Known Member
I have skipped RR because of the line on ordinary Saturdays. I can't imagine the line for younger.
I have gotten my hands on younger a few times over the years. Great beer but not worth that much of my time. There are a few places by my house that get it and work out a system for selling it. It's still a process but much more manageable.
I have gotten my hands on younger a few times over the years. Great beer but not worth that much of my time. There are a few places by my house that get it and work out a system for selling it. It's still a process but much more manageable.
Also in the Philly area and waited in a 20 minute line for a four oz pour at 11am. I had it side by side with Elder and thought Younger was far maltier than Elder. I'd take Elder every time going forward. Elder is much easier to find on tap around here too.
I get what you are saying, but you don't think the breweries share any blame? Maybe not in the very beginning, but after a beer gets hyped, they encourage it by having these once a year releases like Dark Lord Day, Hunahpu Day and Pliney the Younger with big festivals around it.
What's the alternative? NOT making the beer, or making it more? The first solves nothing...the second just takes away capacity that RR already doesn't have.
The complaints on this thread show that people are already frustrated they can't get Pliny or Pig, so how's a beer that requires smaller batches (because of the grainbill and MT size) and more time in the fermenter (because of the extra dry-hopping), and massive amounts of grain and hard to get hops (commercial brewers are having a hell of a time getting simcoe) going to fix the complaints aired here?
I'm not going to get into it because the mere suggestion pisses me off to no end, but I will simply say this: It is the epitome of "sense of entitlement" for a consumer to bad mouth a brewer for NOT TAKING ON DEBT so that consumer can have easier access to a product.
It's important to note 3 things here: 1) The retailer didn't put on a special festival. They merely announced the release-even though they absolutely have the right to pump the beer all they like...in this case they don't. 2) While the beer is very fairly priced in the pub, the release and the tourism is thought to bring a tremendous amount of money into the local economy 3)Sour grapes that we can't get a beer wreaks of "first world problems".
It just comes off as sour grapes to me. I am very familiar with Vinnie and Natalie, and they absolutely are all about making great beer. Maybe people wish they would make more so it was more readily available, but they already make 15k+ bbls a year, and they're not slaves...they are free market entrepreneurs.
I'm not completely blind either...I find fault in how widely the beer is distributed when it's in short supply in the completely local (as in, same zip code) area. But it's obvious they're getting intense pressure from those accounts to do so. They have already pulled out of the Washington market to alleviate this problem, so it's not like they're not trying.
In the end, we consumers are not entitled to demand a brewer take on financial risk for our edification. If the brewer is happy with his business as is, he has no obligation beyond making sure the product he offers for sale is as advertised: A quality craft beer.
JMHO...
Not hating on RR. Had a couple of other things from them, and enjoyed them very much. In my opinion Hill Farmstead is still tops for me at the moment.
I'm sure RR is busy all year long, and they are extremely popular for good reason. They know all about hype, and how two weeks of a beer release can have people talking about their place for a long time. I bet you some other beers they make are even better than PTY, but it's PTY that keeps their name going around. Smart on them.
I'm actually glad you've never heard of HF. Voted best brewery in the world last year. There's already enough people going there for his amazing brews. Even the location is beautiful. I'm lucky I live in NH. I believe some of the best beers in the world are being produced in VT right now.
You seem very passionate about this. You won't see me complaining that RR (or anyone) should make more beer. Of course I'd like to try more of their beer, but they made a calculated, financial decision to release it the way they did. You were saying it was all our fault for over hyping the beer and I don't think that's the entire story.
Cigar City realized that instead of making another batch of beer (and probably taking on more debt as you mention), they could sell $50 tickets for the opportunity to purchase their beer and make $175k extra that way. Not counting the other beer and food sales for the day. Of course their decision backfired, but most don't.
With all due respect to RR I think the only thing that bothers me is the fact that people wait 4, 6, 11 or however many hours for this. I'm sure a ton of people didn't have to wait that long, and a lot of it is on the people showing up so early and wanting to wait for that amount of time, but I think part of the ridiculousness also belongs to RR, and I'm sure they're trying their hardest to serve everybody.
If I owned a brewery, I would be pissed if someone had to wait 5 hours to have a glass of my beer. There's got to be a better way to get everyone a glass in a reasonable amount of time. It's only beer.
If I owned a brewery, I would be pissed if someone had to wait 5 hours to have a glass of my beer. There's got to be a better way to get everyone a glass in a reasonable amount of time. It's only beer.
Weezy
Well-Known Member
A little hypocritical there. You talk of the sense of entitlement of others in one breath, then in the next breath you're complaining about the brewery distributing too widely and depriving you, the local market, of more product. It's ok for you to comment on their business practices but outsiders can't?
I doubt it was vacationers from Chicago who started this hype train.
I'd tweet/Facebook to the fans saying no lines will be allowed, and ask the local police to disperse any lines past the frontage of the shop. Hey, all those people can patronize the local merchants while they wait.
brettg20
Well-Known Member
I don't understand why RR is getting hate when other breweries are trying to create a hype for a particular beer (Enjoy by, hunahpu). What do you want RR to do? They've been doing the same release for 10 years it's not their fault unlike others who are trying to create this hype. Get over it seriously
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iijakii
Well-Known Member
The only thing that bothers me about hype is that it skews my own personal expectations. Any movie that I hear is the best thing ever, 9/10 times it's a big disappointment because it never lived up to expectations. If I watch it again later on I'll realize it's pretty OK. I'm just a sucker product of consumerism and capitalism though. Make it expensive and give it a false rarity and I'll probably try it. Cost means it's better, right?
Just trying to give a thoughtful answer, since I kinda like your posts and felt like you deserved it. But it's true I AM passionate about good beer.
To the guy who thinks I'm a hypocrite, that's a pretty strong word. I'm sorry you think that. I was clearly showing I could see things from others' perspective with that example. I was trying to be open minded and admit that legitimate criticism is...legitimate.
To Callacave, I didn't intend the "hate on RR" comment for you specifically. I apologize that this wasn't clear. This thread has 60 posts now, and I don't care much to reread and make specific personal accusations...so I said it in a general sense...then ended my post with JMHO.
I'm not making any personal judgements...I just love great beer and think some of the criticism toward RR is unfair. Most of it's coming from people who've tried what? One, maybe two beers?
I can relate. I feel the same way especially about movies. I've said about Pliny the Elder on this site before and Pliny the Younger on this THREAD specifically, it's just beer. Folks need to judge it on it's merit, not on any hype surrounding it.
WissahickonBrew
Well-Known Member
Whenever a person spends way more resources (money, time or effort) than they should have, they defend their actions with superlatives to convince you (and themselves) that it was all worth it.
People who spent hours waiting in line for a half pint of expensive beer in this thread all state it was like tasting nectar of the Gods when they finally got a taste.
People who stumbled upon an open tap, and tried under typical conditions (no waiting) state it's just a tasty beer, but nothing that justifies sacrificing hours in line.
'jus sayin'...
People who spent hours waiting in line for a half pint of expensive beer in this thread all state it was like tasting nectar of the Gods when they finally got a taste.
People who stumbled upon an open tap, and tried under typical conditions (no waiting) state it's just a tasty beer, but nothing that justifies sacrificing hours in line.
'jus sayin'...
LovesIPA
Well-Known Member
I read something about RR a few months ago that kind of stuck in my brain. It was about the owners and the quote was, "We don't like debt and we don't like investors."
In my view, this mindset really limits your business. Taking on debt is how businesses grow. I read "The Lagunitas Story" by Tony Magee and that man knows how to run a business. All he did was take on debt, use it to grow the brewery and the brand, and build his business. As a result, Lagunitas is one of the most advanced (equipment-wise) and largest craft breweries in the US. Their business is booming and they can barely make enough beer. They've opened a second brewery in Chicago and they just keep growing.
RR, on the other hand, makes amazing beer and they can't make enough to meet demand. There is a huge market share that they're missing out on because they have a notion that "debt is bad".
When is the last time you heard of a successful business pulling out of a market because they couldn't meet demand? It doesn't sound like a terribly well-run business to me. They are obviously much better brewers than they are business people.
In my view, this mindset really limits your business. Taking on debt is how businesses grow. I read "The Lagunitas Story" by Tony Magee and that man knows how to run a business. All he did was take on debt, use it to grow the brewery and the brand, and build his business. As a result, Lagunitas is one of the most advanced (equipment-wise) and largest craft breweries in the US. Their business is booming and they can barely make enough beer. They've opened a second brewery in Chicago and they just keep growing.
RR, on the other hand, makes amazing beer and they can't make enough to meet demand. There is a huge market share that they're missing out on because they have a notion that "debt is bad".
When is the last time you heard of a successful business pulling out of a market because they couldn't meet demand? It doesn't sound like a terribly well-run business to me. They are obviously much better brewers than they are business people.
I do not believe they said they don't like investors. Maybe you should cite your source. As far as the rest of it, a business can be perfectly healthy growing organically and staying away from debt. I work in finance. Trust me when I say a business with no debt on it's balance sheet is healthier then the same sized business carrying debt. Whats with your obsession on insisting they take on debt? Do that for yourself if you're comfortable, this is America, and business owners get to do things the way they see fit.
From the website:
Maybe not pulling out of the market entirely, but this happens all the time. A new business takes off and all of a sudden they have purchase orders they can't meet so they go unfulfilled. So the company has to make a very critical decision. Do they try to find investors and give up part of their company in hopes that this helps them grow faster and meet demand? Or do they move along, grow slowly, not meet demand, but at the same time continue to hold the majority ownership of their business. This not uncommon at all and is usually a major turning point within a thriving new business. How the ownership decides to move forward is of course their choice and will help define them as a company. It will also help define whether they succeed or not.
LovesIPA
Well-Known Member
Well, I was close. The quote was, "We don't want partners and we don't like debt."
http://www.greensheet.com/emagazine.php?story_id=3496
Obsession is an awful strong word. I made one post where I said they could grow their business with debt and so now I have an "obsession" and I "insist they take on debt". That's quite a leap you've made there.
Remmy
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I have yet to try PtY or PtE for that matter. But I don't understand how in the world people wait in lines for so long for a BEER. It's BEER. You're going to ingest it and piss it out an hour later.
I know a few people in my extended family (actually SWMBO's side) that have driven up to The Alchemist for Heady Topper, only to be told Heady Topper was sold-out. It's a 5-HOUR RIDE from Connecticut! Idiots.
I know a few people in my extended family (actually SWMBO's side) that have driven up to The Alchemist for Heady Topper, only to be told Heady Topper was sold-out. It's a 5-HOUR RIDE from Connecticut! Idiots.
Obsession isn't really that strong of a word, but since words are powerful I'll refer to it as a consistent theme if that's more acceptable to you.
There's a big difference between what you said, and what the actual quote was. Words are powerful indeed, so getting quotes right is important.
As an edit, I read that blurb. It's so non specific and lacking context, I wouldn't derive any judgments based on that singular quote with really, no source cited other then "Russian River responded"...but that's just my bias when it comes to rushing to judgement.
geoffey
Well-Known Member
For the most part I think it is PEOPLE who are most responsible for hype, not the brewery. There are two kinds of people in this world: those willing to wait in a long line for absurd amounts of time to get something they believe is special enough, and those who hate waiting in line for about any reason. The later will never understand the former.
That being said there ARE breweries out there who take advantage of the hype for their products. RR doesn't sound to me like one of them. But there are marketing tricks and gimmicks used by some breweries to take full advantage of over-hyped product. There isn't anything wrong with them making profit off of that hype, but I'm the type of person who's just going to go enjoy someone else's beer if I believe a product is over hyped, if there is a long line for it or if I feel a brewery is taking action to encourage the hype.
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That being said there ARE breweries out there who take advantage of the hype for their products. RR doesn't sound to me like one of them. But there are marketing tricks and gimmicks used by some breweries to take full advantage of over-hyped product. There isn't anything wrong with them making profit off of that hype, but I'm the type of person who's just going to go enjoy someone else's beer if I believe a product is over hyped, if there is a long line for it or if I feel a brewery is taking action to encourage the hype.
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This is what I said about the whole "beer hype" situation on another forum.
"I have so much great beer around me it makes no sense to me to put up with that nonsense (long lines/near riots), but I think the author did a good job pointing out that these things have become about more than just the beer. People attending these events do so to be a part of the "beer culture" and to say that they were there more than they do to get the beer itself. But hearing how much time some people waited in line just to get a 10oz pour of PTY or the CCB near-riot, it seems the lengths people are going to set themselves apart in beer culture by obtaining or drinking these "hyped" beers is reaching a point of laughable ridiculousness."
*edit: Article referenced in the post: http://www.washingtonbeerblog.com/fine-line-between-beer-geeks-beer-jerks/
"I have so much great beer around me it makes no sense to me to put up with that nonsense (long lines/near riots), but I think the author did a good job pointing out that these things have become about more than just the beer. People attending these events do so to be a part of the "beer culture" and to say that they were there more than they do to get the beer itself. But hearing how much time some people waited in line just to get a 10oz pour of PTY or the CCB near-riot, it seems the lengths people are going to set themselves apart in beer culture by obtaining or drinking these "hyped" beers is reaching a point of laughable ridiculousness."
*edit: Article referenced in the post: http://www.washingtonbeerblog.com/fine-line-between-beer-geeks-beer-jerks/
I don't see anything like that in this thread. Instead there are very measured responses, and most people here say it's not really worth standing in line for hours.
For those who are asking about why it isn't produced more:
"Just like the Pliny the Elder, the growth and popularity of Pliny the Younger has happened organically, we did not start with the intentions of building a beer that in time would have this HUGE buzz around it, it was just something fun to brew and over the years we have made a little more each year. We are at our maximum limit though now on how much we can brew. In truth it is a very difficult beer for us to brew as it takes 6 weeks to make, a batch of something else usually takes 21 to 24 days so as you can see if you do the math we lose a lot of tank space when we make Younger, in fact, we lose an entire fermentation cycle on two tanks when we make Younger. We may try to make a small amount more in the future but because of the production issues it causes us it will never be produced in any quantity." -Vinnie Cilurzo source (I recommend reading it to understand)
As far as the hype is concerned, I believe it is largely dependent on human nature. Aside from being a notably well crafted beer, there are reasons why people are drawn to them. Three things that come to my mind when I see things get hyped (and not just beer). First there is exclusivity. The need to feel included drives many people to go our of their way, spend more than they normally would, or exert more effort. It's the notch on the belt, the check in the box, and the ability to say you're "one who did it." Secondly there's gambling. I don't really see it in this instance but it has a light presence in the craft beer community (for example Three Floyds golden tickets). The third is quite simply our nature to collect things. Whether it's a baseball card, a rare action figure, or a hard to obtain beer. It appeals to people because they can say that they've had the top X number of beers in the world, or that they've had all the beers in X region or X category, or even that they've tried all be beers from X brewery. These are just my observations and I don't judge one way or another.
"Just like the Pliny the Elder, the growth and popularity of Pliny the Younger has happened organically, we did not start with the intentions of building a beer that in time would have this HUGE buzz around it, it was just something fun to brew and over the years we have made a little more each year. We are at our maximum limit though now on how much we can brew. In truth it is a very difficult beer for us to brew as it takes 6 weeks to make, a batch of something else usually takes 21 to 24 days so as you can see if you do the math we lose a lot of tank space when we make Younger, in fact, we lose an entire fermentation cycle on two tanks when we make Younger. We may try to make a small amount more in the future but because of the production issues it causes us it will never be produced in any quantity." -Vinnie Cilurzo source (I recommend reading it to understand)
As far as the hype is concerned, I believe it is largely dependent on human nature. Aside from being a notably well crafted beer, there are reasons why people are drawn to them. Three things that come to my mind when I see things get hyped (and not just beer). First there is exclusivity. The need to feel included drives many people to go our of their way, spend more than they normally would, or exert more effort. It's the notch on the belt, the check in the box, and the ability to say you're "one who did it." Secondly there's gambling. I don't really see it in this instance but it has a light presence in the craft beer community (for example Three Floyds golden tickets). The third is quite simply our nature to collect things. Whether it's a baseball card, a rare action figure, or a hard to obtain beer. It appeals to people because they can say that they've had the top X number of beers in the world, or that they've had all the beers in X region or X category, or even that they've tried all be beers from X brewery. These are just my observations and I don't judge one way or another.
LOL..I have no self control. I'm sure the guy with his untapped and twitter handles in his sig line never hyped a beer. LOL!
I waited. It was good. I liked last year's better. I wouldn't say Waitng in line or traveling places for beer constitutes idiots. Hell- the line is half the fun and I met some great folks from Chicago that are sending me hard to get beers. Although it does suck that your inlaws drove 5 hours and didn't get anything for it.
Just as an aside- How long do you wait for your sours to mature? Bet it's longer than I waited in line.
terrapinj
Well-Known Member
what's wrong with wanting to keep the company at a smaller size to keep quality control up?
many of the most desired (aka hyped) beers are from small breweries that could easily expand much larger in size if they wanted to but chose to stay small. It's not fair to compare lagunitas to RR and say one is a better business than the other. IMHO most RR beers are far superior to those from lagunitas and when I order a beer or judge a brewery I go by taste not how big or small the brewery is.
being successful isn't solely measured by profit and sales or how far your distribution is
I don't know Vinny and can't speak for him and his wife but I'd hardly say they are bad business owner's. He takes pride in what he makes and obviously likes to keep tight control over his product. Their sour beers are among the best around and while I agree that no beer is worth hours in line for, Blind Pig, PTY and PTE are among the best hop forward beers i've had.
They could've gone to Blackback pub right in town and probably had it on tap along with some Hill Farmstead and Lawson's.
Remmy
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Instead, they went to 4-5 beer stores before one finally had Heady. They only sold them a 4-pack. Ridiculous, especially considering the 10-hour round trip.
