I can't Brew All Grain...

[GweedoeBrew]

Ok... so I have tried 4 All Grain Batches... and they have all been terrible... 1 was drinkable (my first) and the last three were dumps!! The last three have been really cidery in smell and taste...

Any idea what I am doing wrong... or what I should do... I have gone back to brewing Extract for now... cause I just can't take it... It is really getting me down...

I use a 70qt Coleman Xtreme and do the "Denny Conn" batch sparging method of brewing... I have no clue what is going on... or how to fix it... I do everything to a T... but it has to be in the mashing stage that is causing this... cause on Labor day... I did 2 beer... 1 extract and 1 all grain... the extract has no issues... and the all grain needs to be dumped... it smells really really cidery....


THOUGHTS?

 

[McKBrew]

Some sort of infection maybe? Not waiting long enough.

Look at this thread.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/diagnosing-cidery-beer-136887/

 

[Beavdowg]

Where can I look at the "Denny Con" batch sparging technique?

thanks

 

[s3n8]

read Bobby_M's writeup, I learned a lot from reading his website. I am sure there is a link in his signature.

 

[Bobby_M]

I think we need to talk more about details.

Post a recipe and details on the process, water ratios, temps, etc.

Tap water? If you want to rule out the water, buy distilled from walmart and build it from scratch. A one gallon test batch would be good idea in that regard.

 

[GweedoeBrew]

Here is my recipe... I follow it as close as possible... This is the most recent beer... I have had this happen with 3 beers... (2 ales and 1 lager)... They are the exact same cidery taste and aroma... I haven't dumped the Lager yet... but close to it... the other 2 beer I dumped...(a pale and and a Hefe)... I will say that the first 2 beer I dumped... i thought that the issue was because I had forced the wort out of the grains on my run off (i was taking my mash paddle and sweezing out the liquid)... but this last one I didn't and still have the same issue...

I will say that the cidery smell is the same for all three batches... that is why I think that it is something wrong with my process...or whatever...

Rye-toberfest
Oktoberfest/Marzen

Type: All Grain
Date: 9/5/2009
Batch Size: 5.00 gal
Brewer: Craig Guido
Boil Size: 6.41 gal


Mash or Steep Grains

Ingredients for Mashing Amount Item Type % or IBU
7.00 lb Pale Ale Malt 2-Row (Briess) (3.5 SRM) Grain 58.33 %
3.00 lb Rye Malt (Briess) (3.7 SRM) Grain 25.00 %
2.00 lb Caramunich I (Weyermann) (51.0 SRM) Grain 16.67 %


Single Infusion, Medium Body, Batch Sparge Step Time Name Description Step Temp
60 min Mash In Add approx 15.00 qt of water at 165.9 F 154.0 F

Batch Sparge: Sparge with approx 3.33 gal of 168.0 F water


Boil Wort

Add water to achieve approx boil volume of 6.21 gal

Boil Ingredients Boil Amount Item Type
60 min 1.00 oz Hallertauer Mittelfrueh [4.00 %] (60 min) Hops
25 min 1.00 oz Hallertauer Mittelfrueh [4.00 %] (25 min) Hops

Cool and Prepare Fermentation

Cool wort to fermentation temperature

Transfer wort to fermenter
Add water to achieve final volume of 5.00 gal
Ingredients for Fermentation Amount Item Type % or IBU
1 Pkgs Octoberfest (Wyeast Labs #2833) Yeast-Ale

Measure Actual Original Gravity _1.049______ (Target: 1.056 SG)
Measure Actual Batch Volume __5g___ (Target: 5.00 gal)

Fermentation

9/5/2009 - Primary fermentation (20 days at 48.0 F)

9/26/2009 - Secondary fermentation (at 53.0 F)

 

[GweedoeBrew]

Also... I use tap water (the same for my extract and have no issues)... but I do no PH testing or stabilization.... Maybe the issue???

 

[ThreeTaps]

We can only assume that you followed these directions to a T, without any variations whatsoever. Can you confirm this?

Also, I noticed you used an Ale yeast, yet you fermented at Lager temps. If this was an ale, why did you ferment so low? Ales need to ferment at 68^F +-, not down in the 40's and 50's. Is it possible that the cidery taste you experienced was just very young / not-nearly-fermented-enough beer?

EDIT: Oh wait, you said you used Wyeast 2833, but I can only find a 2633 Oktoberfest lager yeast on their site. Did you use the 2633 lager yeast, or an ale yeast?

 

[GweedoeBrew]

Yes... I would say that is true...

 

[ThreeTaps]

I edited my post above, might want to re-read it.

 

[ekjohns]

what problem could happen by pushing wort out of the grain? j/w

 

[Catt22]

Ok... so I have tried 4 All Grain Batches... and they have all been terrible... 1 was drinkable (my first) and the last three were dumps!! The last three have been really cidery in smell and taste...

Any idea what I am doing wrong... or what I should do... I have gone back to brewing Extract for now... cause I just can't take it... It is really getting me down...

I use a 70qt Coleman Xtreme and do the "Denny Conn" batch sparging method of brewing... I have no clue what is going on... or how to fix it... I do everything to a T... but it has to be in the mashing stage that is causing this... cause on Labor day... I did 2 beer... 1 extract and 1 all grain... the extract has no issues... and the all grain needs to be dumped... it smells really really cidery....


THOUGHTS?

Your recipe and precedures seem to be OK, although with the Octoberfest I didn't see you mention a lagering period which would be highly beneficial, but probably won't eliminate the cidery taste problem. The cidery taste could be a yeast byproduct acetaldehyde, but that's ususally a result of high fermentation temperatures. It's possible that under-pitching and pitching when to wort is still too warm could be the cause. Did you chill the wort well after the boil and did you make a big starter? The other possibility is an acetobacter infection. Fuit flys are notorious for carrying this bacteria and any that came into contact with the wort, cooler or other post boil wort contact equipment could be the source. If I understand it right, you had this cidery taste in three sequential batches. That leads me to think it is an infection problem and the result of inadequate sanitation practices. I'm no expert on this stuff. Just throwing out some things to investigate. It's rare to have a batch go bad for any reason. Three in a row is alarming. The puzzling thing is that it doesn't happen with the extract batches. That points to the cooler and maybe the transfer tubing as a source. I would declare war on contaminants, replace hoses and use liberal quantities of sanitizer. I'm also thinking this might be a lactobacillous infection instead of an acetobacter. The lacto can come from grain dust in the air. A lacto infection will taste sour rather than cidery, but I can see easily confusing the two. Avoid drafty areas when pitching and protect the cooled wort as much as you can by limiting exposure to the air. That's all I can think of.

 

[GweedoeBrew]

I edited my post above, might want to re-read it.

It was Lager Yeast... that must be a typo in Beersmith

 

[GweedoeBrew]

Your recipe and precedures seem to be OK, although with the Octoberfest I didn't see you mention a lagering period which would be highly beneficial, but probably won't eliminate the cidery taste problem. The cidery taste could be a yeast byproduct acetaldehyde, but that's ususally a result of high fermentation temperatures. It's possible that under-pitching and pitching when to wort is still too warm could be the cause. Did you chill the wort well after the boil and did you make a big starter? The other possibility is an acetobacter infection. Fuit flys are notorious for carrying this bacteria and any that came into contact with the wort, cooler or other post boil wort contact equipment could be the source. If I understand it right, you had this cidery taste in three sequential batches. That leads me to think it is an infection problem and the result of inadequate sanitation practices. I'm no expert on this stuff. Just throwing out some things to investigate. It's rare to have a batch go bad for any reason. Three in a row is alarming. The puzzling thing is that it doesn't happen with the extract batches. That points to the cooler and maybe the transfer tubing as a source. I would declare war on contaminants, replace hoses and use liberal quantities of sanitizer. I'm also thinking this might be a lactobacillous infection instead of an acetobacter. The lacto can come from grain dust in the air. A lacto infection will taste sour rather than cidery, but I can see easily confusing the two. Avoid drafty areas when pitching and protect the cooled wort as much as you can by limiting exposure to the air. That's all I can think of.

Can I still have bacteria/infection issues in the mash vessel... I mean after it goes through the mash... it is boiled... and wouldn't that ride the wort of anything....cause I can tell you that I clean my cooler and parts, but I don't sanitize it...

 

[Bobby_M]

A stovetop mash for a 1 gallon test batch would be a great way to figure it out. If you're really ambitious, do it twice. One with tap water and the other with half distilled, half tap.

Where are you located? I'm sure someone is close enough to watch over your shoulder during a brew to see if it's something you're not thinking of.

Are all of your all grain recipes home grown?

 

[gallagherman]

It was Lager Yeast... that must be a typo in Beersmith

If you really did use a lager yeast, and pitched 1 package, that is under-pitching. Did you use a starter? Maybe the yeast is becoming too stressed and producing many off flavors.

 

[ThreeTaps]

Can I still have bacteria/infection issues in the mash vessel...

You can have bacteria in the vessel itself, and probably do (airborn stuff), but the boil kills all that stuff off. No need to sanitize pre-boil equipment, just clean it well.

 

[sea2summit3]

Ok... so I have tried 4 All Grain Batches... and they have all been terrible... 1 was drinkable (my first) and the last three were dumps!! The last three have been really cidery in smell and taste...

Aside from preboil equipment, what is different about your all grain and extract setup? I'm thinking any different post boil equipment used for your extract batches (tubing, different wort chilling), or location (brewing AG in garage so you don't have to move all the equipment around vs. brewing extract batches outside). Are your the fermentation vessels the same? Obviously I'm thinking contamination... I don't know what else it could be. Are you sure its a cidery taste rather than a green taste? Is it possible there was a recall on the yeast you used?

 

[Beermaker]

I suggest brewing an AG batch with someone who already does it. See if your methods match his and ask questions.

 

[GweedoeBrew]

Well... I am going to try a couple of things.... I am definitely going to wage war ok my whole system... I am going to Clean out my Pre-Boil and post boil vessel... I am going to try a Belgium White in 2 weeks... and see what happens...

I mean... it must be an infection of some sort...I just need to figure it out... I will keep you posted and see what I find. It is just hard... cause I have been brewing extract for years now with no issues... and the jump to All Grain has just been... well... not successful!

 

[McKBrew]

First place I'd start is with any and all tubing. I'd even go as far to say toss all of your tubing now and buy new stuff, but that's just me.

 

[Mad_Milo]

what problem could happen by pushing wort out of the grain? j/w

Supposedly, you can force tannins out of the husks. These tannins would then lead to astringency in the final product.

 

[GweedoeBrew]

Supposedly, you can force tannins out of the husks. These tannins would then lead to astringency in the final product.

yeah... and I think that was the issue with my first All Grain... it was an ESB... it was close in taste, but a small amount of astringency... But at least drinkable... the last 3 though have been undrinkable... The more I think about it... there is a place that the beer is getting infected...

 

[Mad_Milo]

I'm also thinking this might be a lactobacillous infection instead of an acetobacter. The lacto can come from grain dust in the air. A lacto infection will taste sour rather than cidery, but I can see easily confusing the two. Avoid drafty areas when pitching and protect the cooled wort as much as you can by limiting exposure to the air.

Catt22 could be onto something here.

Did you crush your grains in the same area as you boil? Is it well ventilated?

I get my grains crushed at the LHBS, but try not to raise too much dust when pouring from the bags into the MLT cooler.

 

[Denny]

Where can I look at the "Denny Con" batch sparging technique?

thanks

www.hbd.org/cascade/dennybrew

 

[Gremlyn]

You're not sparging hot enough if you're adding 168F water, you want to bring the grain bed temp up to about 168F, it's best to use about 185F water for sparging.

When does it taste cidery? Is right when you taste it before bottling or after it's been bottled and conditioned? Are you making sure to not aerate your beer during the bottling process? I'm wondering if by 'cidery' you actually mean it has a vinegar-like taste.

 

[ekjohns]

i have had problems with my all grain as well so dont feel to bad. My first was HORRIBLE tried to make my own receipe and man did i screw that up. Second attemp was on a wheat and added some stuff like 2 lbs of honey to find out I dont really like mead and dont want to wait a long time for it to get good. 3rd attempt I took edwarts oktoberfest and it is still bottle conditioning but seems to have an over powering sulfer smell. All in all dont feel bad I suck at it to. I can say there are some tips like during sparge dont open the lid. I was over concerned about temp dropping over the hour only to find out the more i check the lower the temp (i know obvious). Another thing I have been debating is my therm. It is a meat therm. and if i put the majority of the gauge in it reads 5-10 degrees hotter than only 1/4. Not sure which is correct to this day.

 

[Gremlyn]

I can say there are some tips like during sparge dont open the lid. I was over concerned about temp dropping over the hour only to find out the more i check the lower the temp (i know obvious). Another thing I have been debating is my therm. It is a meat therm. and if i put the majority of the gauge in it reads 5-10 degrees hotter than only 1/4. Not sure which is correct to this day.

I think you mean mash there, not sparge. Sparging is just rinising the left over sugar out of the grain after mashing.

 

[ekjohns]

true true i did read up on the batch sparge and am thinking about getting a cheap cooler. Right now I am using a large grain bag and starting with all the grain in my boil pot then after mash pull it out and let it drain then move it to another 5 gal pot with hot water to sit in there for 10 min then drain toss the grain and add the wort all together. Basically a batch sparge with a bag instead of a cooler but its kinda messy and I could prob build a mash tun for $10

 

[Gremlyn]

true true i did read up on the batch sparge and am thinking about getting a cheap cooler. Right now I am using a large grain bag and starting with all the grain in my boil pot then after mash pull it out and let it drain then move it to another 5 gal pot with hot water to sit in there for 10 min then drain toss the grain and add the wort all together. Basically a batch sparge with a bag instead of a cooler but its kinda messy and I could prob build a mash tun for $10

That method is perfectly fine, many brewers do that long term even. To build a mash tun, you're be looking at more like $40-$50 but still pretty cheap considering how much use you can get out of it.

 

[OLDBREW]

first thing I'd do is make a simple young drinkable brew with darker grains, maybe a simple brown beer. Do you use a filter for your water? You should if you haven't been. Use a neutral ale yeast like nottingham 2 pks. Keep everything simple. 154* saac @60minutes some ekg or fuggles for hops. Remember when doing all grain you need to cut back on your hops because you get better utilization compared to extract brewing

That 70 qt cooler size sounds pretty large for a small batch of beer. Sound more of a 10 gallon batch size unless your doing really high gravity beers. How thin is the mashbed in that cooler? A smaller cooler for normal 5 gallon batches keeps a thicker bed and maintains temps better. Make sure the tubing from the mashtun is rated for high temperatures some of the vinyl tubing on the shelves of the big box stores are only rated @110*F. the elastomers can leach into the wort if not rated high enough.

Use 65% efficiency when formulating the recipes onyour first few brews until you get a handle on your mash efficiency. don't worry about trying to get up to mashout temps when sparging. 170-180* water in a 150* mashbed will work.

This one is very important. Make sure the thermometer you are using for mashing is pretty accurate +/-2*

 

[ILOVEBEER]

Hey Bobby,

I thought distilled water was a NO NO since all of the important minerals needed for beer are boiled out???

 

[Mad_Milo]

If you use 100% distilled or RO water, you build it back up using common brewing salts: Gypsum, Chalk, Calcium Chloride, Epsom Salts, non-iodized salt (sea salt), and baking soda. Most brewing software can help with this. There are probably calculators out there as well.

I think the most important thing right now is to get that beer tasted by an experienced brewer or BJCP-oriented taster/judge. Inflict it upon them and you will get as much info as you want. Check out your local brew club if you have one!

 

[ILOVEBEER]

I am interested in home consumption and have used a filter for beer brewing in the past. So far so good....It almost sounds like alot of work to add those ingredients and calculae....it will ruin my buzz

 

[GweedoeBrew]

ok so I am going try another all grain today... I am going to clean everything out really well with morning with PBW.... Then do an All Grain and an Extract today... All Grain first... and see what happens...wish me luck!!

 

[ekjohns]

good luck..

 

[blackwaterbrewer]

don't f--k with the sparge. i think you have hot side aeration pro=blems from gooning with the mash. you need to rethink your msh/sparging technique. sometimes, you just need to simplify everything and start over with new ezuipment and mindset. PLEASE don't give up. you must prevail.....

 

[GweedoeBrew]

Well I brewed Saturday... First in the morning I cleaned everything really well... PBWed everything.... and rinsed it out... I cleaned it a lot... and then cleaned everything some more...

So I brewed my Normal Denny Conn batch sparge method... nothing really suprising except that I can out with too much wort and ended with 5.5 gals of wort... I adjusted in Beer Smith and showed an efficiency of 65%

The yeast kicked in within the first 24 hours. So we will see... I will give it a few (4 at least) weeks... and rack it to the secondary... and then go from there. I just hope that I don't have any issues...

BLACKWATER - what is hot side Aeration... and what could the problem be... what is causing it?? What happens when you have hot side aeration??

 

[FxdGrMind]

Hmmm "hot side airation"... yes please, I'd like the same question answered.


Good thread, sorry, but I'm learning a lot from your issues. Much appreciated your post and descriptions.

I haven't gone AG yet... well not fully anyway, my W/E Brew was a 6 +hr ordeal with 1/2 AG and 1/2 Extract... seems I did all the work twice... LONG day. But I think my process is similar to yours but I don't have the Hoses... I just pour or siphon from one to the other container.

I'll be looking forward to your results and mine, to compare notes before I go further into AG.

Cheers and fingers crossed for ya!:rockin:

 

[GweedoeBrew]

Well... Here is the news... I brewed 18 days ago. Today I popped off the stopper to take a "wiff" of the brew... and it is not positive.... Has been fermenting like mad... tons of krausen (sp) coming out of the blow off like mad....But.... Still have that "cidery" smell. I just don't think that it is sanitation issues... I guess that somewhere I am doing something wrong... in the mashing process...I just don't know what... and have no clue what could be wrong...

The Extract that I brewed after the all grain that same day... is fine... smells right... So I don't know...

So... anyway... I don't know... I should look around the Boston area here and find a homebrew club... and make some friends... and figure out how to brew all grain.. until then... I am going to go back to extract... It is depressing that I have done 5 All Grains and they are all throw aways...