How's my water?

[motobrewer]

I'm on a well, so I figured I should get my water tested. I really don't know much about water, so, what do you think? I had two samples tested, one before and one after my softer.

|||||||| Ca | MG | Na | SO4 | Cl | HCO3

Before | 92 | 31 | 46 | 15 | 86 | 358
After ||| 1 | <1 | 211 | 14 | 85 | 352

Total Hardness (CaCO3) Before: 359
Total Hardness (CaCO3) After: 3

Total Alkalinity (CaCO3) Before: 293
Total Alkalinity (CaCO3) After: 288

pH is constant before/after, 7.6

man, formatting sucks....sorry for the crappy layout, best I could do....

 

[droopy]

sodium is too high after the softener... Try a stout with un-treated water.

Other then that go with RO water and add salts

 

[motobrewer]

ug, so i'm SOL?

 

[droopy]

You can try it and see... but that's a lot of salt (sodium). The acidity of roasted/crystal malts in a stout will help deal with the carbonate-- but role with the untreated water. The calcium, sulfur, and magnesium levels are fine in untreated water.

RO makers are like a $100- $150 bucks-- simple solution.

 

[motobrewer]

i'm talking about using my untreated water. it seems to be more in balance, except for HCO3.....

 

[droopy]

Water is 90+% of your beer... Good water makes good beer. That said your water maybe good water-- try it then you'll know. Carbonate is high though and that will effect mashing, and to lesser degree hop utilization, not mention flavor.

Try this to see what PH will be. Maybe you can just acid to the water or mash.
How Calculate Residual Alkalinity:
-[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]Difference between the carbonate hardness or total alkalinity (PH increasing) and non carbonate hardness (PH decreasing)
-[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]The higher the residual Alkalinity the higher the expected PH
-[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]Ideal Mash PH is 5.3 to 5.6
-[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]Ideal Wort PH is 5.2 to 5.4


Residual Alkalinity Worksheet:
Total Alkalinity in ppm of CaCO3___0____ X 0.056 = ____0____ (1)
Calcium Content in ppm of Ca ___86.3_____ X -0.04 = __-3.452______ (2)
Magnesium content in ppm Mg ___20.9_____ X -0.033 = ___-.6897_____ (3)
Sum of lines 1, 2, 3 __-4.1417_______ (4)
Multiply line 4 by: X 0.028
PH adjustment value (product of line 4 X 0.028): ____-.1159676_____ (5)
Add to mash PH Achieved with Distilled water: + 5.8
Mash PH predicted with your water (sum of line 5 + 5.8): __5.684____ (6)
(Pale malt with distilled water has mash of 5.8)

[FONT=&quot]5.684 - .4 = [/FONT]
Acidification:
-[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]To reduce PH by 0.1 PH unit
-[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]Per 100 KG (220 pounds) malt
-[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]Calcium Sulfate: 300 grams to mash/ 250 grams to wort
-[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]Calcium Chloride: 250 grams to mash/ 210 grams to wort
[FONT=&quot]o[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][/FONT]100% lactic acid 58 grams to mash/ 29 grams to wort
[FONT=&quot]o[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][/FONT]37% hydrochloric acid 36 grams to mash/ 32 grams to wort
[FONT=&quot]o[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][/FONT]98% sulfuric acid 32 grams to mash/ 16 grams to wort
[FONT=&quot]o[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][/FONT]85% phosphoric acid 66 grams to mash/ 33 grams to wort
Alternative Acidification: (estimates and dependent of alkalinity of water)
-[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]Acidulated malt
-[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]Dark specialty malt
-[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]10% crystal drops mash PH 0.3
-[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]20% crystal malt drops mash PH 0.5
-[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]10% black/ roasted barley drops PH 0.5


If it were me-- I set up an ro maker with a float valve and have a tub of water ready to go whenever.

 

[Bobby_M]

Screw all that math , check out TH's spreadsheet.

Yeah, it is more in balance but the HCO3/Alk is off the charts.

Ok, so it's not that bad really. You can brew Porters and Stouts all day.

Starting Water (ppm):
Ca: 92
Mg: 31
Na: 46
Cl: 15
SO4: 15
CaCO3: 293

Mash Water / Total water (ppm):
Ca: 92 / 92
Mg: 31 / 31
Na: 46 / 46
Cl: 15 / 15
SO4: 15 / 15
CaCO3: 293 / 293

RA (mash only): 209 (22 to 27 SRM)
Cl to SO4 (total water): 1.00 (Balanced)

In fact, about 2 grams of Gypsum in the mash gets you almost perfectly into a Dublin profile.

If you want to go pale ales/IPA, cut 50% with distilled or RO water and:


Mash / Sparge Vol (gal): 4 / 4
Dilution Rate: 50%

Adjustments (grams) Mash / Boil Kettle:

CaSO4: 6 / 0
CaCl2: 1 / 0

Mash Water / Total water (ppm):
Ca: 154 / 100
Mg: 16 / 16
Na: 23 / 23
Cl: 39 / 23
SO4: 229 / 118
CaCO3: 147 / 147

RA (mash only): 27 (7 to 12 SRM)
Cl to SO4 (total water): 0.20 (Very Bitter)

 

[motobrewer]

Bobby-

yeah I've been messing with the sheet. For paler beers I cut with 50% distilled and used:

CaSO4: 3 / 0
Cacl2: 3 / 0

gave me a RA of 48 (9 to 14 SRM0
.64 CL:SO4

bobby, i have 86ppm Cl, not 15.

 

[droopy]

I like the spread sheet.. Does it actually tell you what your mash and pre boil PH is any where? A little confirmation when you are brewing is nice...

 

[motobrewer]

it doesn't give you a pH but it does give you residual alkalinity of the mash.

don't know if you can easily convert.

 

[Bobby_M]

Oops. I enter so many figures into the EZ sheet every day that my head is spinning ;-)

 

[motobrewer]

yeah, i've been doing the same.

so many different ways of getting the end result......

 

[droopy]

"TH's" water profiler looks great...

I would like an actual number for estimated PH though. That way I can compare it to the real PH when brewing (mashing and boiling) and make adjustments if needed. Over time--making the same batches over and over-- you can see how accurate the estimate was and maybe nix some PH testing...

Also would like a temperature correction for the PH when taken hot.

I mean if we are going to geak out on this--computers and beer and all-- let's go all out!

How about it Bobby M? Can you make that happen? JK...

This spreadsheet estimates PH: http://braukaiser.com/documents/water_calculator.xls

But honestly I think the formula i gave you is easier for PH:

Here’s your water figured in:

Total Alkalinity in ppm of CaCO3___359____ X 0.056 = __20.104_____ (1)
Calcium Content in ppm of Ca ___92_____ X -0.04 = ____-3.68____ (2)
Magnesium content in ppm Mg __31_____ X -0.033 = ___-1.023____ (3)
Sum of lines 1, 2, 3 __15.401______ (4)
Multiply line 4 by: X 0.028
PH adjustment value (product of line 4 X 0.028): _.431228_ (5)
Add to mash PH Achieved with Distilled water: + 5.8
Mash PH predicted with your water (sum of line 5 + 5.8): _6.231228_ (6)
(Pale malt with distilled water has mash of 5.8)



And then take into account:


10% crystal drops mash PH 0.3
20% crystal malt drops mash PH 0.5
10% black/ roasted barley drops PH 0.5

6.23 - .5 = 5.73 PH with 10% roasted barley in recipe.

So you ideally you’re shooting for between 5.3 and 5.6 in mash… You’re at little over 5.73 (rough estimate as everything else it too) with 10% roasted barley. Not a big deal if you ask me. Bump up the roasted barley, add acid malt (Guinness clone?), add some acid, or do nothing and see how she goes.

If you do it check take a mash sample—cool it—and check the ph with cheap strips. During the mash and then during the boil. Let me know – curious and all.

 

[motobrewer]

your link is broken.

tomorrow i'm brewing a scottish ale. i may brew a porter after this or after my next and report. my porter has 4% roasted barley, 4% c60, and 4% chocolate.

i'm gonna cut it with 50% distilled, add 1 gram each gypsum and CaCl2 to the mash and 0.5g epsom + 1g baking soda to the boil.

should give me 67 RA and 1.52 Cl:SO4 ratio.

 

[droopy]

http://braukaiser.com/documents/Kaiser_water_calculator.xls

try that... it&#8217;s not that great took me a second to figure it out.

And it's no bother if you are diluting with ro/distilled water. Your water will be good then.

Curious though?
Why the baking soda addition for the scottish ale? matching some water? Generally, you want to remove bicarbonate not add it... especially since it&#8217;s the reason you are diluting&#8230;

it&#8217;s no huge deal but mostly alkalinity is considered bad--- increases color of beer, inhibits the action of enzymes, slower lautering, lower extract yield of the malt, less yeast growth, slow fermentation, produces harsh astringent flavor (polyphenols), high bitterness yield, more beer haze, increases PH in wort and mash, harsh bitterness....
[FONT=&quot]CC and gypsum help lower PH [/FONT]good for your waterEpsom is good&#8212;yeast needs magnesium and reduces PH a little

 

[motobrewer]

honestly.......i have no idea, lol. taking it out now....

too many numbers run thru the spreadsheet.

thanks for the catch! my scottish 70/- thanks you....

 

[droopy]

Okay found this:

PH = 5.8 + ( 0.00168 x RA)

Taking your RA from TH&#8217;s spreadsheet&#8212; gives you a PH 5.91 before crystal/roasted additions or acid. 5.61 PH if you add 10% crystal malt to the recipe.

Double checked it on the formula I gave you earlier and got a PH 5.92: 1/100th within one another&#8230;

Total Alkalinity in ppm of CaCO3___147____ X 0.056 = __8.232_____ (1)
Calcium Content in ppm of Ca ___79_____ X -0.04 = __-3.16__ (2)
Magnesium content in ppm Mg __19_____ X -0.033 = _-.627___ (3)
Sum of lines 1, 2, 3 ___4.445_____ (4)
Multiply line 4 by: X 0.028
PH adjustment value (product of line 4 X 0.028): ___.12446_ (5)
Add to mash PH Achieved with Distilled water: + 5.8
Mash PH predicted with your water (sum of line 5 + 5.8): 5.92446__ (6)
(Pale malt with distilled water has mash of 5.8)


And then take into account:


10% crystal drops mash PH 0.3
20% crystal malt drops mash PH 0.5
10% black/ roasted barley drops PH 0.5

5.92446 - .3 = 5.62PH if you add 10% crystal malt in recipe.

Pretty cool--at the high range of the 'ideal' but I would say dialed... If you can check the PH for real and we'll see if this bean counting is all its cracked up to be.

EDIT: oops saw you have roasted malts in the recipe your probably more like 5.5PH or lower even... Nice!

 

[motobrewer]

The only way I have of testing pH is with those dumb little strips. I have a hard time telling if it's orange or yellow...

So, since I don't have a very accurate gram scale, what's our volumetric equivalents? Looking on Palmer's site, i estimated 1 gram of gypsum to be 1/4 teaspoon....is that right? Seems like a very small amount, especially when the bag says "add 1-2 teaspoons to 5 gallons".

calcium chloride is roughtly the same amount. 0.5 gram epsom is roughtly 1/8th teaspoon.


As a side note, I think I know where the sour twang came from on my last brew of the porter. I used "spring water", which I think is pretty empty, and with the roasted barley and chocolate malt, i think it pushed the pH too low. Still a great beer!