How's my barleywine recipe look?

[swolfe]

I'm trying for a highly hopped American barleywine. Here's what I've got so far for the recipe:

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 5.00 gal
Boil Size: 6.41 gal
Estimated OG: 1.114 SG
Estimated Color: 18.2 SRM
Estimated IBU: 106.7 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
18.33 lb Pale Malt, Maris Otter (3.0 SRM) Grain 90.16 %
1.00 lb Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) Grain 4.92 %
0.75 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt -120L (120.0 SRM) Grain 3.69 %
0.25 lb Special B Malt (180.0 SRM) Grain 1.23 %
2.00 oz Columbus (Tomahawk) [14.00 %] (60 min) Hops 62.6 IBU
2.00 oz Cascade [5.50 %] (Dry Hop 10 days) Hops -
1.00 oz Chinook [13.00 %] (60 min) Hops 29.1 IBU
0.50 oz Simcoe [13.00 %] (15 min) Hops 7.2 IBU
0.50 oz Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] (15 min) Hops 4.7 IBU
0.50 oz Cascade [5.50 %] (15 min) Hops 3.1 IBU
0.50 oz Simcoe [13.00 %] (0 min) Hops -
0.50 oz Cascade [5.50 %] (0 min) Hops -
0.50 oz Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] (0 min) Hops -
1 Pkgs American Ale (Wyeast Labs #1056) Yeast-Ale

A couple friends are going to brew similar beers at the same time, and they suggested we try a 'doble-doble' mash where we first mash half the grain, sparge, and then add the rest of the grain and use the wort to mash with. I'm not sure if this is necessary or beneficial.

I probably won't have a cake available to repitch, so I'll do a large (~3L) starter of US-05. I plan to ferment for about a week at 61F, then leave it for a couple months at ambient (~68F), and then dry hop for about ten days before bottling.

 

[jester5120]

i realize the line between IIPA and barleywine is very close but your hop schedule looks more like a pale ale or IPA schedule. I'd leave out the simcoe and amarillo unless your heart is really set on it. a lot of what those hops give the beer will disapear over time.

 

[photogscott]

I'd be wary about fermenting a high gravity wort at 61. I've never seen an ipa or barley wine recipe at such a low temp. Too high can create hot alcohols BUT too low runs the risk of stuck fermentation. I would stick with 68 like I'm doing as we speak with my 1.116 barley wine

 

[flabyboy]

You could probably just pitch 2 packets of US05 without a starter. Not sure you need the carapils with that high an OG. It should have plenty of body without it

 

[skibb]

61 is a bit low for that yeast, I would suggests a slightly higher fermentation temperature (64?) and allow the temperature to increase slowly over the course of fermentation to allow for a higher attenuation without the hot alcohols.

~10% Crystal is a lot - I would suggest leaving out the carapils entirely in a big brew like this. If it's head retention you are going for, you can always sub it out for wheat malt since it is fermentatble - at 5% it shouldn't introduce any additional haze into your beer. You just don't want this beer to finish cloying and undrinkable.

I like the hop schedule for the most part. You will be aging this beer so if you hop the hell outta it and age it, you should still get some nice hop flavors/aromas down the road. The only comment I have would be on your bittering hop selection - both columbus and chinook impart harsh bitterness from my experience, and would make the beer less drinkable (especially for how big it will be) I would definitely recommend subbing the columbus out for a cleaner bittering hop such as magnum or warrior.

 

[MikeSteele]

I just brewed a barley wine with OG of 1.109. I had a hard time finishing it with a 2L starter of WLP090 and a second pitching a 2L starter of WLP099 in about 67 degrees. I think with a 3L starter you are going to be substantially under-pitching. You're looking at a 12% ABV final product, which is on the very high end of tolerance for WLP001. Check out Mr Malty to see what size is recommended.

I would suggest a quick browsing of the forums to see how others have dealt with high gravity brewing and pitching yeast. There's extra care to be taken when getting into the double digits of alcohol percentage.

 

[flabyboy]

He's using US 05. That stuff will eat like no other. I got 85-90% attenuation with it on a big IPA I made recently

 

[dcp27]

You could probably just pitch 2 packets of US05 without a starter. Not sure you need the carapils with that high an OG. It should have plenty of body without it

+1. also, 61F sounds great to me

 

[swolfe]

Going to brew this Saturday.

Decided I don't want to transport a starter to my buddy's house, so I'm going to pitch 3 packets of rehydrated US-05 with 60 seconds of pure O2. Never rehydrated yeast, so if you have suggestions fire away.

A knowledgeable guy in my homebrew club suggested that Simcoe wouldn't age very well, and I recently had some Troeg's Nugget Nectar, so here's the hop schedule I'm going with:
60 min: 3 oz Nugget
15 min: 0.5 oz Amarillo, Cascade, Centennial
0 min: 0.5 oz Amarillo, Cascade, Centennial
Dry: 1 oz Cascade, Centennial

Let's hope I manage to keep it somewhere near 61F for the 18 hours it's going to be from pitching to getting home.

 

[swolfe]

1

 

[bethebrew]

Going to brew this Saturday.

Decided I don't want to transport a starter to my buddy's house, so I'm going to pitch 3 packets of rehydrated US-05 with 60 seconds of pure O2. Never rehydrated yeast, so if you have suggestions fire away.

A knowledgeable guy in my homebrew club suggested that Simcoe wouldn't age very well, and I recently had some Troeg's Nugget Nectar, so here's the hop schedule I'm going with:
60 min: 3 oz Nugget
15 min: 0.5 oz Amarillo, Cascade, Centennial
0 min: 0.5 oz Amarillo, Cascade, Centennial
Dry: 1 oz Cascade, Centennial

Let's hope I manage to keep it somewhere near 61F for the 18 hours it's going to be from pitching to getting home.

I recently brewed an American Barleywine that scored first in a BJCP competition with a 44.

Suggestions:

Cut Cara-Pils in 1/2. Add 2 oz chocolate 450L for ruby color.
DITCH the nugget hops I am not sure where those came in but I have used them I like them but not for this beer. Amarillo 1 oz Cascade 1 oz 60 mins,
all three(Amarillo Cascade and Centennial) 1 oz 10 mins all three 1 oz knockout all three 1/2 oz dry hop. For mine I used Amarillo Cascade Sonnet Golding and Tettnanger with emphasis on Amarillo and Cascade.

Yeast: Two packs US-05 just dump the dry on top of the wort screw rehydration what a waste of time. Safeale says dump it dry so do that.

Fermentation temperature: I used 61 so that's great.

I hope you are using leaf hops and fresh but if you are using pellet hops I will pray for you. Yuck.

That's it keep the light off that fermenter keep it cold use the wet tshirt whatever it takes.

Cheers and hope it turns out just so.

 

[NuclearRich]

I hope you are using leaf hops and fresh but if you are using pellet hops I will pray for you. Yuck.
QUOTE]

Yeah... Lets see your volume loss with half a pound of whole leaf... no thanks.

 

[swolfe]

If I rehydrate at 75F or so, how cold of wort can I pitch into?

 

[KraphtBier]

I would say a five degree difference between rehydrated yeast solution and actual wort temp is ok. I've def pitched at greater differences and not noticed any off flavors (as long as the wort is at or below desired fermentation temps).

 

[bethebrew]

I hope you are using leaf hops and fresh but if you are using pellet hops I will pray for you. Yuck.
QUOTE]

Yeah... Lets see your volume loss with half a pound of whole leaf... no thanks.

I used pellet hops once in three years. Not for me, what a sludgy mess. I don't like the flavor of them either.

But you are right, volume loss with lots of leaf is an issue. What I do is to pull the bittering hops out for the most part right before adding flavor hops, then pull the flavor hops out right before adding aroma hops. It lessens the volume loss. For a big American Barleywine it's worse but the hops is the key. I get fresh hops by the pound, vac pack into FoodSaver immediately upon opening a bag, and replace into no light in the freezer.

So, for those inclined to argue with me how great pellets store, don't bother.

 

[NuclearRich]

Wellllll in that case you are not getting full utilization from your hops. Your bittering hops bitter less, and give some aroma and flavor now depending on scheduling. You may not have liked the flavor of pellets because you may not actually like hops. If you pull out hops mid boil, your ibus are way lower than calculated. Also ive read that pellets should be reduced slightly, as they they are concentrated.

 

[swolfe]

I would say a five degree difference between rehydrated yeast solution and actual wort temp is ok. I've def pitched at greater differences and not noticed any off flavors (as long as the wort is at or below desired fermentation temps).

Well, here's my issue. I need to rehydrate at 80F +/- 6F (according to Fermentis), but I am fermenting at 61F.

So far my best thought is:
-Rehydrate at 74F.
-Let rehydrated yeast fall naturally to high 60s
-Pitch into wort about five degrees less (mid-low 60s)
-Let wort fall naturally to low 60s.

Edit to say: a large part of me wants to say, '**** it,' and rehydrate on top of the wort and not worry about all this. But killing off ~50% of my cells from the word go doesn't seem like a great plan.

 

[bethebrew]

Wellllll in that case you are not getting full utilization from your hops. Your bittering hops bitter less, and give some aroma and flavor now depending on scheduling. You may not have liked the flavor of pellets because you may not actually like hops. If you pull out hops mid boil, your ibus are way lower than calculated. Also ive read that pellets should be reduced slightly, as they they are concentrated.

Me not like hops? I grow 5 varieties I hate them so much...

 

[turkeyjerky214]

With a smaller beer, I sometimes am lazy and just dump the dry yeast right in. With something big like this, though, I wouldn't take the chance of under pitching. Could result in some serious fusel alcohols or a stuck fermentation.

 

[bethebrew]

With a smaller beer, I sometimes am lazy and just dump the dry yeast right in. With something big like this, though, I wouldn't take the chance of under pitching. Could result in some serious fusel alcohols or a stuck fermentation.

It really isn't being lazy if Safeale recommends sprinkling the dry yeast on the package as their instructions. Somehow people have the notion that rehydrating a pack of dry yeast in water is going to dramatically increase cell counts. Or speed the yeast acting. I find either notion doubtful at best although at one point saw a "paper" that supposedly "proved this".

The ale yeast is a top fermenter. It wants air too at first anyway hence the importance of adding O2 to your wort. Hmm shall we mix it in or let it start on top and do it's thing there...

I guarantee you pitch two packs of even relatively fresh US-05 in a huge beer at 61 F and it's not going to mind at all in terms of underpitching. You better worry more about a blowoff tube than a stuck fermentation. The last time I tried an airlock thinking the 61 F wouldn't foam up and go nuts and that was a mistake.

As for fusel alcohols and nasty flavors, that's what you avoid by fermenting with a good clean neutral yeast such as the US-05 at a low temp like 61 F. If you want a fruity estery beer go another yeast and ferment at 68 F. Real problems with fusels start at more like high 70s ferment temperatures.

 

[sagnew440]

Actually fermentis recommends rehydrating on their website. Its under the craft brewing FAQs. Second one down on the FAQs.

http://www.fermentis.com/FO/60-Beer/60-23_faqCB.asp

 

[rockfish42]

Yeast cells immediately after hydration in wort or water cannot control cell membrane transfer, in the case of wort all the stuff rushing across the membrane kills about 50% of the cells. If you rehydrate before pitching the cell can regulate what it allows across it's membrane.

 

[bethebrew]

Yeast cells immediately after hydration in wort or water cannot control cell membrane transfer, in the case of wort all the stuff rushing across the membrane kills about 50% of the cells. If you rehydrate before pitching the cell can regulate what it allows across it's membrane.

Kills "almost 50% of the cells"? Got a link? That is truly hard to imagine.

 

[bethebrew]

Actually fermentis recommends rehydrating on their website. Its under the craft brewing FAQs. Second one down on the FAQs.

http://www.fermentis.com/FO/60-Beer/60-23_faqCB.asp

Actually on the US-05 package the instructions are to sprinkle it on top of the wort. Seems very odd they would recommend that procedure right on their label if it were such a yeast tragedy dumping dry yeast on top of ready wort.

Well funny I used one dry pack of US-05 not two for all my biggest beers and have never had any issues with fermentation. Not one. Extra steps take extra time and why dilute your beer with water or risk any contamination?

 

[rockfish42]

Dr. Clayton Cone, Lallemand's chief yeast scientist gave a Q&A about it.
http://koehlerbeer.com/2008/06/07/rehydrating-dry-yeast-with-dr-clayton-cone/
http://www.lallemandwine.us/laboratory.php
Also if you can find a copy, Yeast written by Jamil Zainasheff and Chris White (owner of white labs), says essentially the same thing
http://www.amazon.com/dp/0937381969/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

 

[rockfish42]

Actually on the US-05 package the instructions are to sprinkle it on top of the wort. Seems very odd they would recommend that procedure right on their label if it were such a yeast tragedy dumping dry yeast on top of ready wort.

Well funny I used one dry pack of US-05 not two for all my biggest beers and have never had any issues with fermentation. Not one. Extra steps take extra time and why dilute your beer with water or risk any contamination?

The sprinkle directions are aimed at new brewers, they don't want to overcomplicate the process for them.
One packet actually has twice the amount of yeast in it compared to a pack of liquid yeast. So if you kill 50%, you're still pitching enough to have fermentation occur without too much delay and you'll still hit FG just fine. Increases in diacetyl, esters and fusel alcohols will result as products of yeast growth compared to a properly pitched beer.