how would one "go all out" with winemaking?

[twd000]

I am a fairly experienced homebrewer, thinking of trying my hand with a batch of wine or two. Like a lot of hobbies, there are a ton of expensive gadgets to buy, many don't improve the end product much, but some do. There are also a lot of techniques that can greatly improve the quality of the beer.

For instance, if I wanted to brew the best beer I could brew, I would

• Buy the freshest ingredients, crush my own grain
• Carefully control mash temperature and pH
• Start a vigorous boil and add precisely measured hops according to the recipe
• Whirlpool or add finings to drop out sediment
• Quickly cool wort to fermenting temperature and add healthy liquid yeast starter at the same temperature
• Actively control fermentation temperature to within 1 degree of target
• Make sure fermentation is completed before packaging while minimizing oxidation in the process

So what would the equivalent "best practices" be for making the best quality wine possible?

 

[nukinfuts29]

winemaking.jackkeller.net

 

[WIP]

Want to go all out with wine...

-plant vines
-take care of them
-learn harvest timing and techniques from the older generations
-process, ferment, age, and bottle your wines in the old world style
-rejoice in your wine, or adjust for mistakes

The process of making amazing wines can take decades. Good luck.

 

[lumpher]

you don't have to go all out. i make my own wine with the beer-making equipment i've owned for years. only different eqpt is the bottles

 

[brewingmeister]

Buy a vineyard?

 

[nwaite]

Or find uuuppp self a nice young women that has a rich family .... An have them buy you a vinard.

 

[gratus fermentatio]

Your brewing equipment will work just fine. Eventually you'll want a floor corker to cork your wine bottles. Maybe at some point you'll want to buy/make your own fruit press too, but that's a big investment, at least it is for me. I started with making wines from recipes in Terry Garey's book:
The Joy of Home Winemaking - The Book

And from Jack Keller's site:
winemaking: requested recipes (Maraschino-Chocolate Sweet Mead)
Scroll down for a recipe index.

Your brewing experience will serve you well in Winemaking. As you already know, sanitation, quality ingredients & temp ctl are 3 key things to good fermentation. I find that everything else is pretty simple at this level & you can make it as simple, or complex as you want; I like to keep it simple.
Regards, GF.

 

[DoctorCAD]

Buy the freshest ingredients, crush my own grain - Buy the freshest grapes or fruit and press it yourself.
Carefully control mash temperature and pH - Not as important, but still must be controlled.
Start a vigorous boil and add precisely measured hops according to the recipe - No boiling, but do precisely measure ingredients
Whirlpool or add finings to drop out sediment - Time does this for wine
Quickly cool wort to fermenting temperature and add healthy liquid yeast starter at the same temperature - Again, not necessary, but still control temp when adding yeast
Actively control fermentation temperature to within 1 degree of target - Closer to +/- 5 degrees
Make sure fermentation is completed before packaging while minimizing oxidation in the process - Same applies to wine

 

[Cambone]

See this is why beer is fantastic, you truly can brew world class beer in your home with the practices you outlined above. Not so for wine. You can make decent wine, maybe even good wine but it will never be world class, even if you buy a vineyard. Unless that vineyard is in Bordeaux

 

[DoctorCAD]

See this is why beer is fantastic, you truly can brew world class beer in your home with the practices you outlined above. Not so for wine. You can make decent wine, maybe even good wine but it will never be world class, even if you buy a vineyard. Unless that vineyard is in Bordeaux

Horsepucks!

You CAN purchase grapes or juice from just about any vineyard in the world and follow the processes and make great wine. As to "world class" beer, most home brewers make awful beer, they just think its world class.

Oh and Bordeaux is OK, but there are millions of acres of grapes produced in the world that make "world class" wines.

 

[WIP]

Doctor. I beg to differ. I have never made a bad beer, and I have tasted it to professionals. I have two up and coming breweries that want my recipe.

Oh, and I am not a regular brewer, I have only made about a dozen batches, so you can't blame experience. Anyone can make good beer.

 

[WIP]

Also, you can not buy grapes from any vineyard and make world class wine. I can name dozens of regions that are growing crap. I can name vineyards of grapes that are planted outside of the acceptable elevations and soil types that will never make a "world class" wine.

 

[krenshaw]

"world class" is such a relative term.. i've been cellaring wine for a couple years and have had some chances to taste some very good vintages, mostly from napa and sonoma.. many of the more expensive reserves that tout to be the best available aren't necessarily that, still very good but not particularly worth the pricetag.. because tastes are so subjective just about any wine that is liked by a lot of people could be considered world class.. here is a link to a great study that is mentioned time and time again about the subjectivity of the wine world..

the same holds true to beer, and any thing that involves taste.. world class is what you make of it and what the people who have tasted it feel about it

 

[twd000]

Great comments in this thread! True about the subjective nature of taste - I was trying to emphasize the quality. I can make a lousy beer recipe, and follow the steps I outlined, and end up with a very high quality, drinkable beer. Might not be YOUR favorite, but drinkable and high quality. Likewise, I can start with the best Belgian recipe down to the tenth decimal point, and if I screw up my fermentation, it will end up tasting like nasty homebrew swill.

So I'm trying to get a feel for the equivalent ease in winemaking. I've only ever tasted homemade wine from my dad - the whites are pretty good, not great, equivalent to a $10 bottle in the store, but the reds are "off" somehow.

Is it all truly about the grapes? When you buy a bucket of juice or a kit, do you largely get what you pay for, quality-wise?

 

[krenshaw]

if you get a kit, be sure it has the highest amount of juice supplied possible.. i believe that is the biggest factor when purchasing a kit.. the ones with more juice will cost more, and you'll be starting out with more liquid so there will be less water to add during the process.. i've made reds, not any whites yet as my wife and i don't tend to drink them.. time is your friend with wine.. as long as you follow the directions you'll be happy with your product

 

[DoctorCAD]

WIP, while I'm sure YOU think your beer is great, unless it is a pilsner, I think I would HATE it.

Taste is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay to subjective to argue about, sort of like asking waht is the best color for a Harley (Black, of course).

Oh, and 100 point wines are made all over the world, not only in Bordeaux, heck, I stopped in a winery in the mountains of Georgia that had the best sangiovese wine I have ever tasted. I actually bought extra bottles to send to a friend that lives in Napa to see what her impressions were. She thought it rivaled anything Napa had to offer.

 

[WIP]

Oh, I get it. If it doesn't fit your flavor profile, you think it is crap. OK. That is different than it actually BEING crap. Just a hint, your idea of good beer (pilsner) is not what the whole of the craft beer nation thinks is good beer. Although some like pilsner.

I agree. Look at my signature. I make wines in Texas that rival the best wineries in the world. It is all about climate, elevation, soil, etc.

 

[DoctorCAD]

Like I stated, taste is way too subjective to say that something is "world-class" for everybody. I NEVER said your beer was crap, just that I wouldn't think it was world class. I'm sure yours is just fine. I think the whole over-hopped thing that craft brewers are into currently will die down a bit and I have mixed feelings about the barrel ageing movement that is showing up in craft brewing. Just like I have mixed feelings about some of the latest winery trends. I just like a conservative, dry, heavy red wine and a strong, crisp old-world pilsner taste (Pilsner Urquell).

I'm not positive, but I'd bet that hops need specific climate, elevation soil, etc. to be able to flavor the beer correctly.

 

[WIP]

You would be right, but not to the extent of grapes.

 

[DoctorCAD]

You would be right, but not to the extent of grapes.

Sorry we got off topic, but your "terroir" comment reminds me of something.

Last year, my wife and I did a Yadkin Valley wine tour. Yadkin is in northern NC. We stopped at one winery and all of the wine tasted of tobacco, we later found out that the vineyard was planted on an old tobacco farm. That weed ruined the soil, even after 7 years.

 

[SteveHoward]

Sorry we got off topic, but your "terroir" comment reminds me of something.

Last year, my wife and I did a Yadkin Valley wine tour. Yadkin is in northern NC. We stopped at one winery and all of the wine tasted of tobacco, we later found out that the vineyard was planted on an old tobacco farm. That weed ruined the soil, even after 7 years.

It'd be good for the guys who like to smoke when they drink. That'll save them some time.

 

[jdrum]

the secret to making good wine, is making a wine YOU like, the heck with the rest of them, tast is a personel thing, i have tasted world class wine that i would rather pour on a fire ant mound than drink!!! make what you like and enjoy it.

jim

 

[SteveHoward]

the secret to making good wine, is making a wine YOU like, the heck with the rest of them, tast is a personel thing, i have tasted world class wine that i would rather pour on a fire ant mound than drink!!! make what you like and enjoy it.

jim

You know, I wanted to say exactly this, but in my true, wordy nature, I got caught up in the discussion of taste and "world class," and my answer would have been a page long. You capture my thoughts much more succinctly.

 

[yakimabrewer]

I think the original topic was how to go "all out" for wine making, if a home brewer wanted to start making wine. Somehow it got changed to buying a vineyard and not being able to make world class wine without that. BTW, world class wine is currently not being made in Texas.

twd000-

You live in Tucson AZ yes? If so, you live in fairly close proximity to a recognized AVA (American Viticultural Area), the Sonoita AVA. Maynard James Keenan from Tool has a vineyard and winery down there, its called Caduceus, check it out. In other words, you should be able to call up some vineyards during the off-season (now) and secure some grapes for next harvest. We sell to small home winemakers at the vineyard I work for, its pretty common, at least up here in WA.

So first off, agreeing with DOC here, your best bet would be to purchase grapes and crush them yourself. You might need some gadgets for that, but your wine quality will increase dramatically from doing so compared to a kit.

Secondly, there is a lot of planning when it comes to wine making, what varietal you are going to make, how much your going to make, where you are going to store it (in a barrel, carboy, keg, etc.). First things first, decide on what varietal you want to make, and what style you want to make that varietal in. Unlike home brewing, you get one shot per year to produce your wine, you put all your eggs in one basket. In other words, you want to have a really specific plan going in, and you don't want to screw it up. I spend a good month and a half planning for harvest just on the winery side, if I include the vineyard side as well, planning pretty much starts in June.

Once you have a plan, then you can start determining what you will need to buy. Without a plan and varietal its difficult to tell you what tools and gadgets you need. If you need help formulating a plan or anything let me know and I will do my best to assist.

 

[twd000]

I think the original topic was how to go "all out" for wine making, if a home brewer wanted to start making wine. Somehow it got changed to buying a vineyard and not being able to make world class wine without that. BTW, world class wine is currently not being made in Texas.

twd000-

You live in Tucson AZ yes? If so, you live in fairly close proximity to a recognized AVA (American Viticultural Area), the Sonoita AVA. Maynard James Keenan from Tool has a vineyard and winery down there, its called Caduceus, check it out. In other words, you should be able to call up some vineyards during the off-season (now) and secure some grapes for next harvest. We sell to small home winemakers at the vineyard I work for, its pretty common, at least up here in WA.

So first off, agreeing with DOC here, your best bet would be to purchase grapes and crush them yourself. You might need some gadgets for that, but your wine quality will increase dramatically from doing so compared to a kit.

Secondly, there is a lot of planning when it comes to wine making, what varietal you are going to make, how much your going to make, where you are going to store it (in a barrel, carboy, keg, etc.). First things first, decide on what varietal you want to make, and what style you want to make that varietal in. Unlike home brewing, you get one shot per year to produce your wine, you put all your eggs in one basket. In other words, you want to have a really specific plan going in, and you don't want to screw it up. I spend a good month and a half planning for harvest just on the winery side, if I include the vineyard side as well, planning pretty much starts in June.

Once you have a plan, then you can start determining what you will need to buy. Without a plan and varietal its difficult to tell you what tools and gadgets you need. If you need help formulating a plan or anything let me know and I will do my best to assist.

Thanks for the great post! Yes we are 30 mins or so from Sonoita and Elgin AZ and their many great wineries. I hadn't thought of buying grapes directly from them, but it may be a great resource once I build some confidence in my winemaking skills. I'm surprised to hear crushing your own can have such a dramatic effect compared to buying juice. In brewing, any quality maltster will deliver well-modified malt with very little batch-to-batch variation. I take it grape harvesting is a different skill level altogether!

 

[WIP]

BTW, world class wine is currently not being made in Texas.

When was the last time you had Texas wine? When was the last time you had wine from Inwood Estates Vineyards?

Thought so. Don't speak of what you don't know.

I never said that the OP had to buy a vineyard to make good wine. I suggested that if you truly want to go "all out" you would need to start with farming. A few vines would suffice.

 

[yakimabrewer]

When was the last time you had Texas wine? When was the last time you had wine from Inwood Estates Vineyards?

Thought so. Don't speak of what you don't know.

I never said that the OP had to buy a vineyard to make good wine. I suggested that if you truly want to go "all out" you would need to start with farming. A few vines would suffice.

I've tasted in Texas, and I have tasted your wineries wines.

Take a look in the spectator's top 100 of 2011, or any previous year for that matter. How many wines come from Texas?

Zero

How many come from Washington? 7 this year. One of our wineries wines is actually in the top 100 Best values of 2011 in the spectator this year, with 91 points.

 

[yakimabrewer]

twd000-

It's not the actual grape harvesting that dictates quality, it's the growing of the grapes and how they are treated once harvested. I would think (although I am not sure), that the juice found in the kits comes from vineyards that are not super focused on quality. So not only do you get juice that has been "stored", you get lower quality juice for wine making. You are also relying on the company that makes the kits to extract all of the goodness from the grape skins for you. If you buy directly from a vineyard, not only will you get higher quality fruit, but you will be able to control the extraction process, during fermentation if its red, or during the crush if its a white.

With that said, you can make a really nice wine with borderline fruit using good cellar practices, and you can also take some really good fruit and make horrible wine with bad cellar practices.

I apologize for my previous post, not trying to start an argument.

 

[WIP]

I've tasted in Texas, and I have tasted your wineries wines.

Take a look in the spectator's top 100 of 2011, or any previous year for that matter. How many wines come from Texas?

Zero

How many come from Washington? 7 this year. One of our wineries wines is actually in the top 100 Best values of 2011 in the spectator this year, with 91 points.

I doubt that you have tasted our wines if this is your attitude toward TX wine.

Wine spectator. Woop dee friggin doo.

I am not going to have this argument with you if this is what you are basing your distinction of "world class" on.

I had a whole rebuttal typed out, but for the sake of this thread, this argument is over. For the rest of you, I encourage you to stop by my winery and try spectacular Texas wine. That way you can make a decision for yourself if you are ever in Dallas.

 

[WIP]

twd000-

It's not the actual grape harvesting that dictates quality, it's the growing of the grapes and how they are treated once harvested. I would think (although I am not sure), that the juice found in the kits comes from vineyards that are not super focused on quality. So not only do you get juice that has been "stored", you get lower quality juice for wine making. You are also relying on the company that makes the kits to extract all of the goodness from the grape skins for you. If you buy directly from a vineyard, not only will you get higher quality fruit, but you will be able to control the extraction process, during fermentation if its red, or during the crush if its a white.

With that said, you can make a really nice wine with borderline fruit using good cellar practices, and you can also take some really good fruit and make horrible wine with bad cellar practices.

I apologize for my previous post, not trying to start an argument.

Any good winemaker will tell you that 70% of making good wine is in the vineyard. This includes harvesting. Harvest is probably one of the most important parts actually. Some people harvest based on PH and sugar levels, others do more. Yes, bad cellar practices can ruin a good vintage of grapes, but rarely can you make good wine from crap fruit.

That being said, the wine kits you buy are not necessarily bad. You do get what you pay for, for the most part. The people who put these kits together take pride in their work just like any other winemaker. They want you to buy from them over and over again, so they use the best practices possible to make your must. This includes, de-stemming, extraction, pressing, treating, etc. Everything but the fermentation process really.

 

[KevinM]

Like any other place, it takes time before recognition really hits a place. Sure, a region could be good, could be bad. But look:

Napa Valley, heard of it? Was a barely known place, no one took it seriously because the best wine was French.
Austrailian & New Zealand. Same thing. Wine from the regions were dirt cheap, unheard of, and then they got big and well known and now their prices are up there.
Michigan and some of the eastwards midwest states have wine regions, quite good ones, but they're not always announced. At this point, Michigan is mostly known for reislings, despite the other varietals. (I'm still annoyed that I missed out on this year's crops of Frontenac grapes @ 75 cents a pound. Each day I had it rained, except the one day I went to that winery with a friend to do some drink..tasting. I should have just told her to drink a few bottles while I go off and harvest.)

While it's true it takes our preconcieved notions a bit to work around that some place might have wine, and it might be good wine, it eventually gets there. (I didn't know they grew grapes in AZ or TX until just now.

As to the harvest, there are a few minor things, such as not brusing the fruit and such, but it's fairly straight forward from what I had looked up and was told by the land manager. The core bit is that the better you get at picking, the faster it goes. So while there's definately skill involved, if you just use some common sense (no squeezing the grapes in your fist etc) it'll probably be fine.

If you did this for a living, it'd be different. This year in many places (both california and michigain for example), rain was really causing havok on the harvest and everyone was trying to pick at the right times so the weather didn't cause rot.

What's interesting is that it seems that different vineyards have different options. I've heard of purchasing pre-picked grapes (haven't bothered yet since I didn't want to spend on equipment since it's all going to gluten free beer first or go at grapes with a potato masher and a bucket), and this year, I've heard of one that did u-pick (they said they had a bumper crop of them). And if I had managed get those, I'd still have gone at them with a potato masher to crush them and weights and cutting boards to press. No shame in trying and I already know the winery does well enough with their grapes.

 

[yakimabrewer]

Kevin-

You are absolutely correct. I apologize to the OP for "hijacking" the thread, and if I offended anyone else I am sorry.

Washington is very new to the wine world as well, and as Kevin said, it took time for the recognition to take place. It is very possible that within the next decade or two, TX, AZ, MI, etc will find their niche, do those varietals as good as, or better than, anywhere else, and become recognized for it.

 

[sheeshomatic]

See, this is exactly why I DON'T make wine. I'm too much of a control freak. My friends and family have asked me on multiple occasions after enjoying my beer - "Have you thought about making wine?".

My answer is always no. If I lived in a wine growing region, with access to a good vineyard where I could source my own grapes, then sure, I'd consider it. But my local home brew store has a HUGE wine making side, with crushers and filters and all the stuff you'd need - but they just have crates of grapes that say "merlot", or "chardonnay". I KNOW it's all about the grapes, the soil, the air, the weather, the proximity to salt, etc... And I know nothing of these grapes. They could have been grown off of the Garden State Parkway 20 miles from me for all I know.

With beer, if I nail all the things the OP spoke about, I can repeatably make a recipe taste nearly identical from one batch to another. Grain is like that. Breiss Pale 2 row is going to still be Breiss Pale 2 row next year, and that Special B I use from the same manufacturer is still going to add the same flavors. I can make some really knock your socks off good beer knowing this. I wouldn't want to make just passable wine (not saying you all do - just my own locale and resources).

 

[DoctorCAD]

See, this is exactly why I DON'T make wine. I'm too much of a control freak. My friends and family have asked me on multiple occasions after enjoying my beer - "Have you thought about making wine?".

My answer is always no. If I lived in a wine growing region, with access to a good vineyard where I could source my own grapes, then sure, I'd consider it. But my local home brew store has a HUGE wine making side, with crushers and filters and all the stuff you'd need - but they just have crates of grapes that say "merlot", or "chardonnay". I KNOW it's all about the grapes, the soil, the air, the weather, the proximity to salt, etc... And I know nothing of these grapes. They could have been grown off of the Garden State Parkway 20 miles from me for all I know.

With beer, if I nail all the things the OP spoke about, I can repeatably make a recipe taste nearly identical from one batch to another. Grain is like that. Breiss Pale 2 row is going to still be Breiss Pale 2 row next year, and that Special B I use from the same manufacturer is still going to add the same flavors. I can make some really knock your socks off good beer knowing this. I wouldn't want to make just passable wine (not saying you all do - just my own locale and resources).

I'd bet that if the Breiss Pale 2 row was grown off the Garden State Parkway the beer would taste differently!

ALL plants benefit from the correct growing conditions, not just grapes.

 

[sheeshomatic]

I'd bet that if the Breiss Pale 2 row was grown off the Garden State Parkway the beer would taste differently!

ALL plants benefit from the correct growing conditions, not just grapes.

No doubt about it, but it's a heck of a lot easier to ship grain than grapes. They store longer and I think it's quite easy to get very high quality grains week after week. I don't know if that's the case for grapes year after year.

Again - that's why *I* don't make wine. I just don't feel like I'm in enough control. I appreciate others efforts however.