How to Darken a Dunkel? Carafa, Melanoidin, Midnight Wheat?

[tennesseean_87]

I've got a load of Munich from a small malter in North Dakota. I want to use it to make a Munich Dunkel, but it's only 6srm.

I've been thinking to use maybe a lb of Pils to get some extra enzymes in there, 1/2 lb of carapils, and then try to get more color. I've got Carafa II and III de-husked, and Midnight Wheat. I'm thinking the darker the better here, so I can use less.

I'm also considering adding some Melanoidin malt because I have plenty on hand, and what I'm reading about Dunkel it's recommended to use the darker (10) munich, which would have more melanoidin, right? Would a 1/4lb or 1/2lb Melanoidin malt help to get me where I want to go flavor-wise?

Spec sheet on the Munich attached.

 

[corax]

I'd stick with de-husked Carafa III for color adjustment. Midnight wheat might give the wrong kind of roastiness.

Depending on the quality of the Munich malt, you may not need melanoidin malt. If you do use it, keep it under 5% of the grain bill -- it's strong stuff.

 

[specharka]

Weyermann Munich I is only 5-7 SRM and it makes perfectly acceptable Munich Dunkel as a SMASH beer. A double decoction will go a long way to darken the beer and produce melanoidins. If you’re not interested in performing a decoction (who is?), you can always runoff first runnings into a separate pot and boil down until desired. It produces a similar flavor and color.

Other options are Munich II, CaraMunich, and Carafa Special malts, but they aren’t as close to tradition.

EDIT: I took a look at the spec sheet and it appears to be excellent malt, way closer to continental Munich than most domestic varieties. High DP for Munich malt — you won’t struggle with conversion at all.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

I recommend sticking to de-husked carafa, if using it, and go easy - Dunkels should not have a pronounced roasty flavor. Half a pound is probably too much for a "true-to-style" Dunkel, but it could still be a very tasty beer.
Decoctions will help, but are a pain.
Skip the Carapils - it's pretty useless, especially in a Dunkel. Use CaraMunich II for your caramalt. It will give more color and a more authentic flavor.
I agree with adding at least a pound of Pilsner malt - it will give some flavor variety.

I brew a lot of German beers, and a lot of Dunkels, and I don't like Melanoidin malt. It's too easy to overdo it and get a cloying, heavy-sweet mess from it.
As a last resort, there is Sinamar.

 

[tennesseean_87]

I'd stick with de-husked Carafa III for color adjustment. Midnight wheat might give the wrong kind of roastiness.

Depending on the quality of the Munich malt, you may not need melanoidin malt. If you do use it, keep it under 5% of the grain bill -- it's strong stuff.

Since it's wheat it is de-husked, but I've never used it before.

Weyermann Munich I is only 5-7 SRM and it makes perfectly acceptable Munich Dunkel as a SMASH beer. A double decoction will go a long way to darken the beer and produce melanoidins. If you’re not interested in performing a decoction (who is?), you can always runoff first runnings into a separate pot and boil down until desired. It produces a similar flavor and color.

Other options are Munich II, CaraMunich, and Carafa Special malts, but they aren’t as close to tradition.

EDIT: I took a look at the spec sheet and it appears to be excellent malt, way closer to continental Munich than most domestic varieties. High DP for Munich malt — you won’t struggle with conversion at all.

I was thinking of maybe doing a decoction to mashout, but using my PID to do most of the work for a 3 step mash. Maybe I'll try the boil-down of runnings.

I recommend sticking to de-husked carafa, if using it, and go easy - Dunkels should not have a pronounced roasty flavor. Half a pound is probably too much for a "true-to-style" Dunkel, but it could still be a very tasty beer.
Decoctions will help, but are a pain.
Skip the Carapils - it's pretty useless, especially in a Dunkel. Use CaraMunich II for your caramalt. It will give more color and a more authentic flavor.
I agree with adding at least a pound of Pilsner malt - it will give some flavor variety.

I brew a lot of German beers, and a lot of Dunkels, and I don't like Melanoidin malt. It's too easy to overdo it and get a cloying, heavy-sweet mess from it.
As a last resort, there is Sinamar.

I do have the carapils on hand, but no caramunich. Should I just skip it all together? I was thinking of getting a bit of head retention.

For the Carafa III, go with 6 oz, or is that too much?

 

[Cavpilot2000]

I do have the carapils on hand, but no caramunich. Should I just skip it all together? I was thinking of getting a bit of head retention.

For the Carafa III, go with 6 oz, or is that too much?

In my experience and that of others I know, the head-retention-boosting properties of Carapils are greatly overstated. Maybe if you only had a grist of Pils malt it might help, but you are better off with a solid 30 minute mash rest at 160-162. That will benefit your head retention more than most anything else. I just recommended Caramunich because that's what usually goes in a Dunkel, but you can live without it.

Regarding the carafa, I don't have much experience with III - I mainly use II. I recently made a Dunkel with 6 oz de-husked Carafa II (always go de-husked with German styles, regardless of which one you use) and it was much roastier than is normally acceptable for the style. That said, if you don't mind being a little out of textbook style, it is probably my favorite beer I've brewed this year (of 12). Delicious, full flavor.

That said, I brew LODO, which amplifies the flavor contribution of specialty grains, so I probably got more flavor out of the 6 oz than most would.

All I can say is give it a go - at worst, your Dunkel will have a bit of a porter-like quality, but will probably be very tasty.

Caveat: I am not an expert - there are plenty more people with lots more experience. That said, I brew mostly German styles (see my sig). I also go to Germany and sample lots of beer almost every year (SWMBO is Bavarian, so we go visiting her family for a few weeks). So I feel I can speak with a little authority on German styles, especially Bavarian and Franconian styles.

 

[specharka]

In my experience and that of others I know, the head-retention-boosting properties of Carapils are greatly overstated. Maybe if you only had a grist of Pils malt it might help, but you are better off with a solid 30 minute mash rest at 160-162. That will benefit your head retention more than most anything else. I just recommended Caramunich because that's what usually goes in a Dunkel, but you can live without it.

Regarding the carafa, I don't have much experience with III - I mainly use II. I recently made a Dunkel with 6 oz de-husked Carafa II (always go de-husked with German styles, regardless of which one you use) and it was much roastier than is normally acceptable for the style. That said, if you don't mind being a little out of textbook style, it is probably my favorite beer I've brewed this year (of 12). Delicious, full flavor.

That said, I brew LODO, which amplifies the flavor contribution of specialty grains, so I probably got more flavor out of the 6 oz than most would.

All I can say is give it a go - at worst, your Dunkel will have a bit of a porter-like quality, but will probably be very tasty.

Caveat: I am not an expert - there are plenty more people with lots more experience. That said, I brew mostly German styles (see my sig). I also go to Germany and sample lots of beer almost every year (SWMBO is Bavarian, so we go visiting her family for a few weeks). So I feel I can speak with a little authority on German styles, especially Bavarian and Franconian styles.

My car is Bavarian. So I think I can also speak with authority on these matters.

 

[tennesseean_87]

In my experience and that of others I know, the head-retention-boosting properties of Carapils are greatly overstated. Maybe if you only had a grist of Pils malt it might help, but you are better off with a solid 30 minute mash rest at 160-162. That will benefit your head retention more than most anything else. I just recommended Caramunich because that's what usually goes in a Dunkel, but you can live without it.

Regarding the carafa, I don't have much experience with III - I mainly use II. I recently made a Dunkel with 6 oz de-husked Carafa II (always go de-husked with German styles, regardless of which one you use) and it was much roastier than is normally acceptable for the style. That said, if you don't mind being a little out of textbook style, it is probably my favorite beer I've brewed this year (of 12). Delicious, full flavor.

That said, I brew LODO, which amplifies the flavor contribution of specialty grains, so I probably got more flavor out of the 6 oz than most would.

All I can say is give it a go - at worst, your Dunkel will have a bit of a porter-like quality, but will probably be very tasty.

Caveat: I am not an expert - there are plenty more people with lots more experience. That said, I brew mostly German styles (see my sig). I also go to Germany and sample lots of beer almost every year (SWMBO is Bavarian, so we go visiting her family for a few weeks). So I feel I can speak with a little authority on German styles, especially Bavarian and Franconian styles.

I'm trying to stay away from the caramel malts to avoid sweetness. When I've made amber lagers I've liked them with little to no caramunich. I'll be way at the bottom of the range color-wise, but that's fine. I'll have a stout on tap and considering a Porter later in the winter, so no need for a roasty beer.

Do you ever cold steep, add dark grain at end of mash, etc. in order to minimize roast flavor?

 

[eetu]

I brewed a dunkelweizen and added some roasted barley at the end of the mash. Just go for the darkest grain you can get. Less than 2% of the grist and you won't notice much roasted notes, if any.