how do you handle boil kettle trub?

[Auger]

I've been on my all-grain tree for about 8 months now. Things are working pretty well at this point, I'm getting a handle on the ins and outs of the system, but one thing that's been killing me is I'm always way low on the final volume. I.e. last night I did a 10gal batch of ESB and ended up just short of 8gal into the fermenter. I figured out a few errors in my volume calculations, the most glaringly obvious is that I'm losing way more volume in the boil kettle to trub and hop debris than I was accounting for.

My boil kettle is driving me nuts, I can't get a good way to get a clean runout to the primary without leaving (what seems like to me anyway) to be an excessive volume behind to capture the trub. My boil kettle is a 1/2bbl keg with a weldless fitting ball valve and a dip tube. I've tried:

- using a false bottom plate (clogged up with hop debris and didn't filter out hot/cold break material)
- filter bag (worked OK but ended up using 3 of them to catch everything, plus can't do that if draining into a carboy)
- whirlpooling and running the dip tube all the way to the side of the BK for takeoff (didn't really work, still picked up a ton of stuff)
- whirlpooling then using a racking cane (worked well but left ~2gal of beer behind on a 10gal batch)

tl;dr - How are you guys handling getting clean wort out of the BK without leaving a ton behind?

 

[tektonjp]

First, you really need to recalculate all your water/liquid. You really need to just realize that there will be losses at every stage of the brew process and then build that into your water input. It's not just the trub left in the BK you need to adjust for.
I personally let my wort sit for at least 30 minutes after cooling. That puts the worst of the stuff on the bottom. And then I leave behind a little over a liter when done. I don't mind getting some trub into the fermenter. It all packs down in a couple of weeks and doesn't impart anything negative to the flavor.

 

[mcspanner]

I use a domed false bottom and hop socks as I was getting a lot of hop material in my pump and plate chiller. I've brewed the same recipe back to back with and without hop socks and blind tasted them. None of the tasters could discern any difference in hop utilisation.

I will never go back to trying to drain the kettle without them now.




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[Glynn]

Use a hop spider then set your pickup tube above the trub line.

 

[Auger]

First, you really need to recalculate all your water/liquid. You really need to just realize that there will be losses at every stage of the brew process and then build that into your water input. It's not just the trub left in the BK you need to adjust for.
I personally let my wort sit for at least 30 minutes after cooling. That puts the worst of the stuff on the bottom. And then I leave behind a little over a liter when done. I don't mind getting some trub into the fermenter. It all packs down in a couple of weeks and doesn't impart anything negative to the flavor.

I'm ok with loss and for the most part I've accurately captured and accounted for them, up to this point. If it was a matter of losing 1L to trub, it wouldn't be a problem...2gal (~8L) seems excessive to me, I'm just looking for ways to improve that.

 

[rekoob]

I use a keggle also and have my dip tube just an inch or two from the very bottom I get a lot of stuff in the feremter but I don't worry to much about it.

I am going to try some other dip tube location inside the BK to attempt to keep a little more of the trub in the BK.

I use an IC and recirculate to get a whirlepool, I works better without the IC inside.

Yesterday I made an extract beer and used my HLT keggle, the dip tube is right at the bottom, I recirculated with the IC and after it was cooled down I pumped to the carboy. ended up leaving lots of trub on the bottom around the pickup tube and seemed like less into the fermenter then when I use the BK.

Not sure how you are loosing 2 gal to the BK, don't you drain down to the dip tube?

Also, I boil off what seems to be about 1.5 gal. you should be adjusting your pre-boil amount to have at least 1.5 gal (assumeing your keggle boil off is like mine) more plus what you expect to have left in the BK after you rack/drain.

 

[Yooper]

tl;dr - How are you guys handling getting clean wort out of the BK without leaving a ton behind?

My diptube goes to the bottom, nearly. It is about 1/3 way in from the edge, and it drains all but maybe 1 quart or so.

For beers with lots of leaf (whole) hops, I use a hops spider as they clog my pump. Otherwise, I don't worry about a little trub.

I did have a lot of loss yesterday, making an IIPA (10 gallons) with 17 ounces of hops in the boil. They just absorbed a ton of wort. But usually I leave a quart-ish behind with no problem.

If you want to leave every lit bit of hops debris and break material behind, you could step up your volume.

It doesn't make sense for me to do that, to throw away 1/3 of my wort, but I know that others who don't want any trub in the wort do just that.

 

[Auger]

Yesterday when I brewed I used a racking cane instead of draining through the dip tube, just to see how far I could get down with clear wort before I started picking up trub. (I also paid much closer attention to what I lost during the boil and adjusted beersmith accordingly, I'm losing ~1gal/hr).

So my process was, irish moss for last 10 min of boil, immersion cool, remove coil and stir the crap out of it to whirlpool, let it sit for ~30min, then racked off into fermenters using the racking cane. I siphoned off until I started picking up a lot of trub, which left about 2gal of wort in the boil kettle. I was hoping the whirlpool action would leave a nice mound in the center, but it seemed like more of a consistent layer across the bottom of the keggle.

The only other thing I can think of is putting the false bottom back in and using some whole leaf hops to try and filter everything out...or maybe I just need to be less anal-retentive about getting some trub into my primary?

 

[KavDaven]

For the last couple of years, I've tried all kinds of techniques to leave the disgusting trub in the kettle. Then I got tired of the hassle and worry. The last few months, I made no extraordinary effort to keep trub out of my bucket.

I just can't tell the difference between no trub, little trub or huge trub. My pale ales are still clear. My brown ales are still brown. No off tastes or floaties in my bev line. If I can't tell the difference and my friends still drink my beer with entirely too much enthusiasm then I don't see any reason to use spiders, and whirlpools, and funnels with filters, and on and on.

I still whirfloc, I still try to drop the wort temp as fast as possible. Then I just rack it off starting in the middle and moving down as the level drops. Water calculation is still important to me.

 

[brewbama]

My last two brews went into the fermenter trub and all. I did use a hop spider and whirl flock but that's it. I packaged both today so well see.


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[chickypad]

Nice write up on a trub experiment here. I'm definitely in the "dump it all in the fermenter" camp. Regularly leaving 2 gal behind on a 10 gal batch sounds crazy to me.

 

[Black Island Brewer]

My brew kettle is a keggle, and my drain port has an elbow and a short nipple pointing down, such that if I drain it until it sucks air, it leaves about a quart of trub behind. I plug that .25 gallon loss into BeerSmith, and just brew the extra quart. Just before I drop in my immersion chiller, I top off with water if I'm too low, or leave it if I'm too high. I'm usually spot on. After it's chilled, I whirlpool (with a pump, which runs during the entire chill) for a a couple minutes, then kill the pump. The I ignore it while I sanitize my carboy, let it settle 20-30 minutes. Most of the time I actually DO get the elusive "trub cone" so many have talked about. If I'm brewing with a lot of hops, I'll cut off the flow once I see the trub start to come out. With some of my IPAs, I end up leaving as much as 3/4 of a gallon behind.

To say it doesn't make a difference is kind of silly - anything you do differently will make a difference. It just may not make enough of a difference to bother you, or that YOU can taste. Hell, it might be that dumping all the trub into the fermentor makes YOUR beer better!

 

[jiggs_casey]

For all my beers, I run everything from my boil kettle into the primary through a stainless steel colander, usually gallon by gallon using a large pitcher. When the colander gets clogged, I rinse it off. When the pot gets light enough for me to pick it up, I'll dump straight from it, ensuring that my 'trub loss' is quite minimal.

 

[youreanimpulse]

You could rig a grant with a fine mesh bag in a smaller pot then into the carboy. Seems a lot of mess and bother. I use buckets and have been straining with a bag in the bucket. I have included all the trub before and not noticed the difference in taste, I just save my yeast batch to batch so I like to minimize it.

 

[Auger]

Nice write up on a trub experiment here. I'm definitely in the "dump it all in the fermenter" camp. Regularly leaving 2 gal behind on a 10 gal batch sounds crazy to me.

Thanks, good article. And I agree, its madness to throw out that much.

 

[ColeVet67]

^^^^^ nestar: "dump it all in the fermenter" camp

 

[mjohnson]

If you really care about removing trub and can't figure out a way to deal with it in the kettle, you could always get a conical and let it settle out and dump it. Just trying to help you out!

I do the best I can and don't sweat some trub. I do whirlpool, and that leaves lots of it in the middle, but at the end of the brew day, I don't have patience to let it all settle out before pumping into the fermentor.

 

[Rootski]

I just use a paint strainer bag in a bucket and dump it all into the bucket, then pull the bag out and let it drip. If I want to use a carboy I dump it into the bucket first, strain out the trub, then funnel into the carboy. Since I started doing this my yeast cakes have been super clean. Just make sure to sanitize everything, of course.

 

[rekoob]

strain out the trub,

Cool, how does it drain through the paint strainer?
Isn't there a vessel that you can start draining to from the BK? I can't remember the name I'm looking for, not a hop back...
I guess what I'm thinking is draining to a small vessel right from the BK, and then as it drains from there to the fermenter. Could a paint strainer bag be put inside that small vessel and catch the hop material and the hot break? Dang, I just can't remember the name of that thing...
So, would the paint strainer bad drain fast enough to do this?

 

[dobes]

I use a keggle for my boil pot. I have a false bottom with the dip tube in the center about 1/4 inch from the bottom. I also have a BIAB bag inside the kettle that I have stretched out with a couple pieces of stainless inside across the pot to keep the bag from closing. This will hold most of the hops I throw in(I use whole and pellets). I get very little trub into my fermenter but the main reason I did it was to not plug up my plate chiller. I could probably raise my dip tube a bit and get even less trub.

 

[wardens355]

1. Start whirlpool with pump once my immersion chiller is in the kettle, add whirlfloc (sanitizing pump/tube)
2. Continue whirlpooling once wort is cooled and chiller (very slowly) removed, maybe a minute or so
3. Turn off pump and allow settling for 15 minutes or so (generally finish cleaning/sanitizing carboys at this time)
4. Open bottom kettle valve, draw wort off with dip tube and transfer into carboy with sanitized tubing

I get some trub in the carboy, but a bunch forms a cone (really more of a muffin top shape) in the middle of the kettle, and all I have left behind is trub and minimal liquid. I just started doing this rather than siphoning and I plan to continue this practice moving forward. I am moving towards not caring about the trub, but if I can keep more out I do, generally to retain that small increment of fermenter volume that would otherwise be comprised of trub.

 

[Rootski]

Cool, how does it drain through the paint strainer?

I haven't had a problem with 5 gallon paint strainers yet. Paint strainer bags won't get everything, but it does a pretty good job from my limited experience. Last time I did this was a month or two ago and when I pulled out the bag, the trub/hops formed a "bowl" that lifted out some liquid. I sloshed the bag back and forth carefully and it filtered out the rest of the liquid in only a few seconds. I have not tried this with a hoppy beer yet so it might get more plugged up with more hops.

On hoppy beers, I have used a large colander and I did not like it which is why I started using paint strainers. It plugged up completely multiple times during a 5 gallon transfer and required scraping clean and re-sanitizing for each use.

 

[Black Island Brewer]

1. Start whirlpool with pump once my immersion chiller is in the kettle, add whirlfloc (sanitizing pump/tube)
2. Continue whirlpooling once wort is cooled and chiller (very slowly) removed, maybe a minute or so
3. Turn off pump and allow settling for 15 minutes or so (generally finish cleaning/sanitizing carboys at this time)
4. Open bottom kettle valve, draw wort off with dip tube and transfer into carboy with sanitized tubing

I get some trub in the carboy, but a bunch forms a cone (really more of a muffin top shape) in the middle of the kettle, and all I have left behind is trub and minimal liquid. I just started doing this rather than siphoning and I plan to continue this practice moving forward. I am moving towards not caring about the trub, but if I can keep more out I do, generally to retain that small increment of fermenter volume that would otherwise be comprised of trub.

This has been exactly my routine, but I'm now testing out a CFC and recirculating it into my BK to see if I can chill it faster and get a better whirlpool.

 

[youreanimpulse]

Cool, how does it drain through the paint strainer?

Isn't there a vessel that you can start draining to from the BK? I can't remember the name I'm looking for, not a hop back...

I guess what I'm thinking is draining to a small vessel right from the BK, and then as it drains from there to the fermenter. Could a paint strainer bag be put inside that small vessel and catch the hop material and the hot break? Dang, I just can't remember the name of that thing...

So, would the paint strainer bad drain fast enough to do this?

I think you're talking about a grant.

 

[rekoob]

1. Start whirlpool with pump once my immersion chiller is in the kettle, add whirlfloc (sanitizing pump/tube)
2. Continue whirlpooling once wort is cooled and chiller (very slowly) removed, maybe a minute or so
3. Turn off pump and allow settling for 15 minutes or so (generally finish cleaning/sanitizing carboys at this time)
4. Open bottom kettle valve, draw wort off with dip tube and transfer into carboy with sanitized tubing

I get some trub in the carboy, but a bunch forms a cone (really more of a muffin top shape) in the middle of the kettle, and all I have left behind is trub and minimal liquid. I just started doing this rather than siphoning and I plan to continue this practice moving forward. I am moving towards not caring about the trub, but if I can keep more out I do, generally to retain that small increment of fermenter volume that would otherwise be comprised of trub.

This is what I do too, I just made another dip tube, my first one when right to the edge of the dip in the bottom of the Keggle and had a tee on the end which worked okay after letting it recirculate and settle although it was better when I removed the IC and even with that still in the BK it left behind a good amount of trub. The new one takes a 90-degree turn and the end of the pickup tub is now at the side of the Keggle pointing in the same direction of whirlpool tube. I haven't tried it out yet but I'm sure it will leave behind a little more trub anyway.

This has been exactly my routine, but I'm now testing out a CFC and recirculating it into my BK to see if I can chill it faster and get a better whirlpool.

I'm interested in how well this works out. I have been thinking about making a CFC (maybe just to have a current DIY) but my current IC works pretty good so it's just a thought right now. If you find it's working good with out using ice and all that extra stuff I may have to follow.

I think you're talking about a grant.

YES!!! Thank you! Not sure why I couldn't remember that.
So, would the use of a grant with a paint strainer in it collect the trub (I know it won't get everything) and allow enought liquid to pass to the pump or right to the fermenter?

Anyone using a grant for this purpose?

 

[Brettomomyces]

YES!!! Thank you! Not sure why I couldn't remember that.
So, would the use of a grant with a paint strainer in it collect the trub (I know it won't get everything) and allow enought liquid to pass to the pump or right to the fermenter?

Anyone using a grant for this purpose?

In my old setup I used a 5g pot with a ball valve and a bazooka screen as a grant, worked great for draining the mash and as an intermediate before filling the fermenter.

 

[MrSnacks]

I just whirlpool and let the trub settle. I open my ball valve and let it drain until it's below the level of the valve, and then chuck the remainder. I lose a about a gallon of liquid that way but a decent amount won't end up beer anyway.
I've also just poured the whole mess in. Doesn't make much of a difference in the final product.

 

[wardens355]

I have played with the idea of using a bazooka screen to recirculate through (placed on the discharge side of the pump) that would collect trub prior to racking, but it always seems like too much work for little real reward. You would probably want a dedicated coupler that you could quick connect the discharge tubing to and on the interior have your bazooka tube oriented along the side of the kettle to keep it away from an immersion chiller. Recirculate the wort through it and capture trub. Eventually it will get clogged, but since its on the discharge of the pump no biggy. Probably a pain to clean.

 

[Black Island Brewer]

This is what I do too, I just made another dip tube, my first one when right to the edge of the dip in the bottom of the Keggle and had a tee on the end which worked okay after letting it recirculate and settle although it was better when I removed the IC and even with that still in the BK it left behind a good amount of trub. The new one takes a 90-degree turn and the end of the pickup tub is now at the side of the Keggle pointing in the same direction of whirlpool tube. I haven't tried it out yet but I'm sure it will leave behind a little more trub anyway.

Mine points straight down, an elbow with a short nipple. As long as I start draining slowly, and don't rush it, I leave most of the trub behind. It leaves 12 cups of trub and wort behind.

I'm interested in how well this works out. I have been thinking about making a CFC (maybe just to have a current DIY) but my current IC works pretty good so it's just a thought right now. If you find it's working good with out using ice and all that extra stuff I may have to follow.

So my trial run with water was promising, but may not be enough of an improvement to justify making one. First, I was able to take 7 gallons from boiling to 72F in 25 minutes, with 70F tap water. I had to change the angle of my whirlpool port to point upwards, because on the first trial, the temperatures stratified with the elbow pointing slightly down. But I wasn't impressed with the force of the whirlpool with the CFC attached. Not sure it would be enough to create a tight trub cone. But a quick switch of tubing to remove the CFC and running it for one more minute got an adequate whirlpool.
For me the proof of the CFC will be when my tap water goes back down to 45F. My immersion chiller was great for the first 90%of the chill, but took almost double the time to get the last 5 degrees. The CFC was certainly slower for the last 5 than for the first 5, but I could still see the thermometer move.