How can people possibly get super hoppy “juicy” NEIPA flavors so quickly

[day_trippr]

Someone sure has a hair across their butt about neipas and the NorthEast somehow treading all over the West Coast's ancient/hallowed history.
It's almost like the Bloods and Crips all up in here

Cheers!

 

[mj1angier]

Someone sure has a hair across their butt about neipas and the NorthEast somehow treading all over the West Coast's ancient/hallowed history.
It's almost like the Bloods and Crips all up in here

Cheers!

This is hitting the nail on the head. LOL

 

[Cavpilot2000]

Someone sure has a hair across their butt about neipas and the NorthEast somehow treading all over the West Coast's ancient/hallowed history.
It's almost like the Bloods and Crips all up in here

Cheers!

Word...

 

[Dcioni]

This is great thanks so much. Very intrigued about the step mash—I felt torn about going with 148 for 60, but the sweetness (not the right fruity kind) of higher mash was off putting. Will try!!!

Let's remind ourselves what the OP was asking:



To paraphrase:
1. Some people claim to make NEIPAs quickly, on the order of a week. Is this real?
2. OPs beers are not ready quickly.


To answer quickly:
1. Yes it's real. Commercial ale fermentation are usually moved out of primary in about 2 days. This is easily achieved on the home brew level as well. Myself and many others have done it. Measure your actual gravity through fermentation and you'll see how fast it actually goes. Fermentation isn't done in "7-10 days" or "2 weeks" or "28 days". It's done when the yeast is done (assuming it hasn't quit, which is unlikely if you follow good practices)
2. The good news for the OP is that there's nothing magical about what these brewers are doing. They are just executing good brewing practices at a large scale.

What are good brewing practices with NEIPAs?

Water
1. Start with good water. RO + minerals is your best bet. There is debate about the right sulfate/chloride ratios and amounts, but seems that's more personal preference. You might be able to use tap water if you quantitatively know what's in it, but if not it's a roll of the dice. Sounds like you are on this path already.
2. Deoxygenated water is typically used by the big brewers and for good reason. An oxidized mash leaves a dull tasting beer. There is a certain "brightness" quality that comes out of an unoxidized mash. This isn't a "LODO" thing. This is a real practice in many modern breweries and it's for good cause. I also find a lot of the "off flavors" in "green beer" come from an oxidized mash. When you don't make these flavors to begin with, you don't have to wait for them to age out.


Mash
3. Grain bill - this is up to you, and there are a lot of versions out there. This is an entire thread on its own and has been discussed elsewhere.
4. Get your mash pH correct. You're looking for about 5.40. This will put your enzymes in a good range to do their magic. There's some wiggle room here but don't end up at 5.1 or 5.8.
5. Perform a step mash. Something like 145F for 30, 162F for 30, 170F for 10. This is known as a Hochkurz mash. Each step has its purpose but the net result is good fermentability, body AND foam stability. A single infusion mash at 148 is going to leave you a thin watery beer with no body or foam. Likewise if you ratchet it up a few degrees you're going to have a mash with all alpha amylase activity, which is going to give you a sweet and low attenuating beer. This will really detract from the hop punch. You want 80-85% apparent attenuation. Anything less and your hops won't be center stage and the beer will be cloying and heavy. Also an interesting fact is that unfermented but fermentable extract tastes better than unfermented and unfermentable extract, if that makes sense.

Boil
6. Gentle simmer. Target 6-10% boil off. Anything more is excessive. Less is asking for DMS.
7. Chill rapidly to your steep temperatures and then to your final fermentation temp.

Hops
8. This is another area that is up for you to decide what you like. BUT if there's one thing i've found to be universal across all styles its that old hops make sh1tty IPA of any variation. Do yourself a favor and buy all your hops online from a reputable vendor that will sell you the most recent crop year. Seriously. It makes a BIG difference in this style of beer. I throw out a lb of unused miscellaneous hops every year and buy fresh stuff because it makes that big of a difference. This is especially true with your hop bombs.
9. Decide what YOU like. How do you like your bitterness? Soft/firm? How do you like your aromas and flavors? Do you like citrus flavors or dank flavors or pine flavors or earthy flavors?
10. Quantity - I'm going to suggest you need roughly 1 lb per 5 G. Roughly. Think roughly 1/3 in the boil, 1/3 steep and 1/3 dry hop. This isn't a rule. Decide what you like and adjust more or less.

Fermentation
11. Pitch aggressively. This means HUGE starters if using liquid yeasts or 2-3 packs per 5 gallons of dry yeast.
12. Shouldn't need to be stated, but active temp control is key here. If you don't have this, find a way. It's the #1 most important thing in brewing high quality beer.

Dry Hopping
13. You need to dry hop during active fermentation. There's some variation out there but i'd get the first charge in no later than 1.020. Some people add first charge with the yeast and then a second later in fermentation. I can't tell you what's right or wrong here other than its a necessary step to do during fermentation to get the real juice flavors. Something to play with.

Packaging
14. Beer shouldn't stay in the primary fermenter any longer than needed. Ideally you would transfer your beer to your serving keg with a couple gravity points left. Second best would be to transfer not long (meaning hours to a day if possible) after reaching final gravity. Add priming sugar to the fermenter first, wait about 30-60 minutes, then transfer. In either case you can seal the keg and it'll carbonate itself naturally. This is the best possible scenario because that active yeast will scavenge any oxygen you pick up. Second best would be to add priming sugar


This isn't meant to be the end-all-be-all-guide to NEIPA or any other style. But beer is the sum of its parts. Sounds like you're on the right track and just need some more practice.

 

[Dextersmom]

Let's remind ourselves what the OP was asking:



To paraphrase:
1. Some people claim to make NEIPAs quickly, on the order of a week. Is this real?
2. OPs beers are not ready quickly.


To answer quickly:
1. Yes it's real. Commercial ale fermentation are usually moved out of primary in about 2 days. This is easily achieved on the home brew level as well. Myself and many others have done it. Measure your actual gravity through fermentation and you'll see how fast it actually goes. Fermentation isn't done in "7-10 days" or "2 weeks" or "28 days". It's done when the yeast is done (assuming it hasn't quit, which is unlikely if you follow good practices)
2. The good news for the OP is that there's nothing magical about what these brewers are doing. They are just executing good brewing practices at a large scale.

What are good brewing practices with NEIPAs?

Water
1. Start with good water. RO + minerals is your best bet. There is debate about the right sulfate/chloride ratios and amounts, but seems that's more personal preference. You might be able to use tap water if you quantitatively know what's in it, but if not it's a roll of the dice. Sounds like you are on this path already.
2. Deoxygenated water is typically used by the big brewers and for good reason. An oxidized mash leaves a dull tasting beer. There is a certain "brightness" quality that comes out of an unoxidized mash. This isn't a "LODO" thing. This is a real practice in many modern breweries and it's for good cause. I also find a lot of the "off flavors" in "green beer" come from an oxidized mash. When you don't make these flavors to begin with, you don't have to wait for them to age out.


Mash
3. Grain bill - this is up to you, and there are a lot of versions out there. This is an entire thread on its own and has been discussed elsewhere.
4. Get your mash pH correct. You're looking for about 5.40. This will put your enzymes in a good range to do their magic. There's some wiggle room here but don't end up at 5.1 or 5.8.
5. Perform a step mash. Something like 145F for 30, 162F for 30, 170F for 10. This is known as a Hochkurz mash. Each step has its purpose but the net result is good fermentability, body AND foam stability. A single infusion mash at 148 is going to leave you a thin watery beer with no body or foam. Likewise if you ratchet it up a few degrees you're going to have a mash with all alpha amylase activity, which is going to give you a sweet and low attenuating beer. This will really detract from the hop punch. You want 80-85% apparent attenuation. Anything less and your hops won't be center stage and the beer will be cloying and heavy. Also an interesting fact is that unfermented but fermentable extract tastes better than unfermented and unfermentable extract, if that makes sense.

Boil
6. Gentle simmer. Target 6-10% boil off. Anything more is excessive. Less is asking for DMS.
7. Chill rapidly to your steep temperatures and then to your final fermentation temp.

Hops
8. This is another area that is up for you to decide what you like. BUT if there's one thing i've found to be universal across all styles its that old hops make sh1tty IPA of any variation. Do yourself a favor and buy all your hops online from a reputable vendor that will sell you the most recent crop year. Seriously. It makes a BIG difference in this style of beer. I throw out a lb of unused miscellaneous hops every year and buy fresh stuff because it makes that big of a difference. This is especially true with your hop bombs.
9. Decide what YOU like. How do you like your bitterness? Soft/firm? How do you like your aromas and flavors? Do you like citrus flavors or dank flavors or pine flavors or earthy flavors?
10. Quantity - I'm going to suggest you need roughly 1 lb per 5 G. Roughly. Think roughly 1/3 in the boil, 1/3 steep and 1/3 dry hop. This isn't a rule. Decide what you like and adjust more or less.

Fermentation
11. Pitch aggressively. This means HUGE starters if using liquid yeasts or 2-3 packs per 5 gallons of dry yeast.
12. Shouldn't need to be stated, but active temp control is key here. If you don't have this, find a way. It's the #1 most important thing in brewing high quality beer.

Dry Hopping
13. You need to dry hop during active fermentation. There's some variation out there but i'd get the first charge in no later than 1.020. Some people add first charge with the yeast and then a second later in fermentation. I can't tell you what's right or wrong here other than its a necessary step to do during fermentation to get the real juice flavors. Something to play with.

Packaging
14. Beer shouldn't stay in the primary fermenter any longer than needed. Ideally you would transfer your beer to your serving keg with a couple gravity points left. Second best would be to transfer not long (meaning hours to a day if possible) after reaching final gravity. Add priming sugar to the fermenter first, wait about 30-60 minutes, then transfer. In either case you can seal the keg and it'll carbonate itself naturally. This is the best possible scenario because that active yeast will scavenge any oxygen you pick up. Second best would be to add priming sugar


This isn't meant to be the end-all-be-all-guide to NEIPA or any other style. But beer is the sum of its parts. Sounds like you're on the right track and just need some more practice.

Can you confirm any brewery out there step mashing NEIPAs? everything i've read recommends simple single infusion mashes. not to mention mashing at 170? say what?

 

[schematix]

not to mention mashing at 170? say what?

never heard of a mash out?

 

[Dextersmom]

Sorry didn't read it as a mash out... But my question still remains

 

[murphyslaw]

I can understand not liking a beer style, but I can't understand why people who don't like NEIPAs constantly flood threads about brewing better NEIPAs with rants about the supposed inferiority of the style.

That being said, anyone who doesn't like NEPIAs either has never tried a good one fresh. And if they have, they are just cursed with bad taste. Sorry. Its a fact.

 

[Dextersmom]

Agreed I giggle slightly when someone enters a comment thread to bash a style they don't like for whatever reason.

Also I call malarkey on the need to use a step schedule traditionally used in lagers as a method for making better neipa.

 

[schematix]

Also I call malarkey on the need to use a step schedule traditionally used in lagers as a method for making better neipa.

It's not a requirement.

My experience is that step mashes give a beer that I prefer across all styles.... lagers, IPAs, bitters, ambers, whatever. There is good science why to do one. So it's what I promote.

Do what you like or you have the capability to do.

 

[Azura]

Someone sure has a hair across their butt about neipas and the NorthEast somehow treading all over the West Coast's ancient/hallowed history.
It's almost like the Bloods and Crips all up in here

Cheers!

I couldn't care less about which coast or region or state currently has the highest rated IPAs determined mostly by people that don't even brew beer. My previous comments regarding this sub-topic have nothing to do with geographic loyalty that fools my senses.

Can you say the same thing? Are you sure about that?

The internet hyped low ibu "juice beers" from New England disguised as IPAs have some very vocal fans. I've had Heady Topper and considered it to be a better than average hoppy beer that was more WC than EC by today's EC standard. On the other hand, I've made several beers using EC methods that are hyped on the internet. They tasted more like something I would be happy to buy at a store in a NE mall that advertises amazing fruit smoothies and serve it to one of my children. Perhaps this is what proper NEIPAs are supposed to be? I really don't know.

Trillium has kindly posted a few recipes. Nothing in their recipes indicates anything special at all. They probably make good beer worth buying. Still not sure if they are worthy of the hype. That question will be answered if they ever become successful enough to send beer far beyond the NE.

 

[chieftain]

I couldn't care less about which coast or region or state currently has the highest rated IPAs determined mostly by people that don't even brew beer. My previous comments regarding this sub-topic have nothing to do with geographic loyalty that fools my senses.

Can you say the same thing? Are you sure about that?

The internet hyped low ibu "juice beers" from New England disguised as IPAs have some very vocal fans. I've had Heady Topper and considered it to be a better than average hoppy beer that was more WC than EC by today's EC standard. On the other hand, I've made several beers using EC methods that are hyped on the internet. They tasted more like something I would be happy to buy at a store in a NE mall that advertises amazing fruit smoothies and serve it to one of my children. Perhaps this is what proper NEIPAs are supposed to be? I really don't know.

Trillium has kindly posted a few recipes. Nothing in their recipes indicates anything special at all. They probably make good beer worth buying. Still not sure if they are worthy of the hype. That question will be answered if they ever become successful enough to send beer far beyond the NE.

I use this same reasoning for downvoting all Russian River Brewing beers on every online beer tasting forum. Because if you can't reach my coast, then your beer must be swill! Or, you know, I actually try the beer and then opine. For the record, love me some Pliny.

To the OP, I'm trying out the approach outlined above. I can say from experience that the oxygen exposure issue is critical for the style. I'm purging my serving keg using C02 from the fermenter.

 

[day_trippr]

re: two posts up: "Not buying it".
There are clearly issues in your head that have nothing to do with actual beer.

btw, while we're blessed with lots of contenders, Tree House is the current rager out here in The Great NorthEast. PKU...

Cheers!

 

[Dextersmom]

Treehouse has fallen off hard.
Much like alchemist did... Both were on the forefront but now others are doing it much better and more consistently.... Trillium being the diamond out there that has held strong and consistent since the beginning of the craze.

Beyond that we've devolved from the original point of the thread. And became east vs west... Old school vs new school...preference vs preference in both palate and technique.

I think it might be time for this thread to be locked... Or get back on course...

 

[Cavpilot2000]

I actually don’t care for most of Trillium products and find the flavors of Treehouse more appealing. To each his own, but I feel like all of Trillium’s IPA taste the same and have nothing behind their hops. No malt, no body, and I find them to come across as overly acidic and biting.
But that’s just me. Obviously Trillium is popular. Every time I go by the Canton taproom on a weekend it’s PACKED.
I don’t think they’re doing anything better than Treehouse - they’re just doing it differently, and that appeals to some and not to others.
FWIW, they are closer to Boston and therefore more easily accessible to more people, so for those who don’t want to make the 90 Minute drive to Treehouse from the Boston metro area, Trillium is a readily accessible option, and for most, their first real fresh local NEIPA option.
So ease of access makes them a more natural preference, but I’ll bet half of the Trillium crowd haven’t even been to Treehouse.

 

[day_trippr]

I haven't been to either Treehouse or Trillium but my youngest son plies me with them whenever I'm over his place.
I had my first Julius there and was smitten.
For styles where both outfits play and can be compared, I'd say generally Treehouse dials up their recipes a tick over Trillium.
Everything seems bolder...

Cheers!

 

[Cavpilot2000]

I haven't been to either Treehouse or Trillium but my youngest son plies me with them whenever I'm over his place.
I had my first Julius there and was smitten.
For styles where both outfits play and can be compared, I'd say generally Treehouse dials up their recipes a tick over Trillium.
Everything seems bolder...

Cheers!

Yeah. A few years ago I was pretty well sick of IPAs (traditional/WC). To me the market had just become oversaturated with mediocre IPAs where everybody seemed in a competition to make the most aggressively bitter thing they could (100+ IBU's? No thanks).
The style had become boring and played out to me and I was experiencing hop fatigue.
Then I was introduced to Treehouse's Julius and Green and suddenly I was interested in IPA again, but mostly this "new" style that emphasized low bitterness and fruity flavors rather than classic pine and grapefruit.

I'm mostly a classic old world lager brewer nowadays, but I do a NEIPA about twice a year for variety and I still try to get out to Treehouse when I can for a few cans.
I still get bored with most regular (highly bittered) IPAs. But that's just me. Give me a well-made Munich Helles, Dunkel, Kellerbier, or Bavarian Pils any day.

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

For tree house, doppelganger is the gold standard for me. Trillium is generally more dry and refreshing.

I have to laugh at the people who trash the style as juice for kids as if their taste is definitive for all. It comes across as petty and close minded.

 

[GoeHaarden]

I came here to learn, but this thread is exhausting...

 

[SanPancho]

Been looking for some of those DIY floating diptubes. Have seen only one, didnt look great. Any recommendations?

Want to try diy before dropping dough on clear beer.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

Been looking for some of those DIY floating diptubes. Have seen only one, didnt look great. Any recommendations?

Want to try diy before dropping dough on clear beer.

Personally I'd just go with the Clearbeer. It's like $35 and all stainless constriction. Sure you could hot glue a piece of silicone tubing to a small empty plastic water bottle, but it's not exactly an elegant solution.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

I came here to learn, but this thread is exhausting...

There are some good informational gems in here if you can avoid all the "NEIPAs suck" nonsense.
Most important is limiting oxygen exposure to the maximum possible degree.
In addition, freshness matters. Hops aroma and flavor only fade over time. They never increase.
Sure, they may mellow, which may be to some peoples' taste preference, but "mellowing" is another way of saying "fading".

The OP's question was "how do people get that super hoppy, juicy flavors so quickly?"
Quickly is the only way to get them because they will fade (your degree of prevention of O2 ingress, temp, etc, will influence how quickly they fade). Dry hopping more than 48 hours yields little additional extract. Dry hopping beyond 7 days yields nothing useful. So while your hops may "mellow" to your taste after a month, what it's really doing is fading to your taste over that time.
Chances are if you're not getting that in-your-face juiciness, you aren't using enough hops (and there is definitely a point of diminishing returns). Aim for a minimum of 1.5 oz/gal, but 2 oz/gal is more of a sweet spot.

YMMV, but use lots of hops, limit oxygen exposure at all costs, and drink fresh. That should get you that "super hoppy “juicy” NEIPA flavors so quickly".

 

[schematix]

Careful about mentioning O2. Looks like that gets posts deleted in this thread ;-)

 

[baldm79]

I have only made one Neipa, and it took a week in the keg for the hop particles to settle. So I started really drinking at around 16 days from pitching. Is there any trick to avoiding the floating hop matter?

 

[Cavpilot2000]

I have only made one Neipa, and it took a week in the keg for the hop particles to settle. So I started really drinking at around 16 days from pitching. Is there any trick to avoiding the floating hop matter?

It's not floating hop matter, it's settled hop matter. It's in the bottom of your keg and your dip tube draws from the bottom, so you're sucking it up. That's why I have become a firm believer in a floating dip tube (if the hops junk is at the bottom, why not draw beer from the top?)
In my previous batches, I'd waste pint after pint, thrown away while pulling out that nasty hot hops material. I'm on my first batch with a floating dip tube and from the moment of installation, BOOM! no hops particles.

 

[baldm79]

I’m inclined to think it was floating though because I really didn’t drink much the first week, but the few samples had a distinct bitterness. I had to move the keg yesterday, and sure enough next pour had the same bitterness. Now it sat for a day and no more bite. I could be wrong but it seems like it got better once it sat and settled out.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

I’m inclined to think it was floating though because I really didn’t drink much the first week, but the few samples had a distinct bitterness. I had to move the keg yesterday, and sure enough next pour had the same bitterness. Now it sat for a day and no more bite. I could be wrong but it seems like it got better once it sat and settled out.

If it were floating, then it would be at the top of the keg, which is the farthest point from where your keg is pulling, and you would not have experienced it.
If it were settled, but you moved the keg, you probably kicked up a little bit and made it more readily pulled in by the dip tube.

 

[baldm79]

If it was floating couldn’t it be mixed throughout? Not just at the top? You may be right, I’m just curious

 

[Smellyglove]

I’m inclined to think it was floating though because I really didn’t drink much the first week, but the few samples had a distinct bitterness. I had to move the keg yesterday, and sure enough next pour had the same bitterness. Now it sat for a day and no more bite. I could be wrong but it seems like it got better once it sat and settled out.

I'd say coldcrash for a short while before kegging. It might take a while for polyphenols to settle out. Often it's just that one pour (after letting the keg rest for a while), which really makes it, next pour is good. That's at least my experience with hoppy beers.

If you don't let the keg sit un"used", to let them settle out, then dumping half a pint or a whole one, you'll be pouring polyphenols into the glass, which gives you this "bitterness".

 

[baldm79]

Thinking along the lines of early gravity samples being bitter..
Since it’s a young beer I assumed the hop matter may not have dropped out yet. Does the floating sip tube really solve the problem? Or do you just throw away a few glasses at the end as opposed to the beginning?

 

[Azura]

I have to laugh at the people who trash the style as juice for kids as if their taste is definitive for all. It comes across as petty and close minded.

You can laugh all you want. I don't think my taste is or should be a universal standard. I'm glad you like your hop juice beer. Maybe my opinion will change whenever I get to drink a real NEIPA? Thus far, I've only had the privilege of trying poser examples from breweries outside the NE.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

Thinking along the lines of early gravity samples being bitter..
Since it’s a young beer I assumed the hop matter may not have dropped out yet. Does the floating sip tube really solve the problem? Or do you just throw away a few glasses at the end as opposed to the beginning?

Yes, you may end up tossing a little at the end, but it allows you to start drinking good beer sooner and by the end, the particles should be fairly compacted, whereas in the beginning they may have dropped to the bottom but not truly settled.
My experience with this batch says the stuff isn't in suspension, but on the bottom, because I was puling the hot hop gunk and immediately upon installing the Clearbeer, voila - good beer, no gunk. UNfortunately, try as I might to do it with CO2 being pumped in while installing, I'm sure I introduced some oxygen, installing after kegging, which will shorten the hop life (I should have installed it prior to purging the keg and transferring to it), but oh well - next time.

Look, I'm not trying to sell a product here - it was recommended to me by a friend, especially for NEIPAs, and I tried it and I'm sold. YMMV, but I've not heard of many people disappointed with it.

 

[murphyslaw]

Maybe my opinion will change whenever I get to drink a real NEIPA? Thus far, I've only had the privilege of trying poser examples from breweries outside the NE.

You the old saying, don't try it until you knock it.

 

[day_trippr]

Where's the fun in that? Oh, wait...

 

[motosapiens]

This is the misunderstanding I think people have. They truly think it is something new and revolutionary. Making a fruity low perceived bitterness hop forward IPA. The NEIPA is just a cloudy copy of what has been going on in the pacific northwest for much longer. You can do a quick search on here of techniques and hop schedules and go through the history to see examples. When you say wcipas, there are plenty of them that are more traditional in being bitter, etc. They were the first doing more hop forward tasting beers with beers like pliney,sculpin, etc. At that time, the east coast was still producing these bitter bombs, get the most IBU in a beer possible craze. There were examples of these hop forward beers on the east coast such as heady topper.

In the pacific northwest they were creating very hop forward ipas, while reducing the bitterness profile, but utilizing huge amounts of late addition hops. They have been using all the traditional IPA hops such as centennial, cascade, chinook, etc, but they also have been using the others such as AMARILLO, CITRA, etc for a long time. You have to realize hops are grown in the pacific northwest, and that is where all these new breed hops are coming from in the US. The brewers up there have a key advantage from others around.

heres a quote of a boneyard IPA produced in Bend OR.
"Brewed using 6 different NW varieties of hops at over 2.5 pounds per barrel, RPM IPA focuses on extreme hoppiness rather than bitterness. It’s golden to copper in color with a complex malt profile that will not overshadow the hops. Our flagship, RPM IPA, will satisfy any opinionated hop forward IPA consumer"

They focus on IPA's that are NOT bitter forward, but rather hoppy. Depending on what hop is available, is what is getting used. This is what brewers up there have been doing before the NEIPA craze.

I live in PA and have had many juicy NEIPA examples, I just recognize it being a cloudy Bend IPA.

That is some pretty bizarre thinking imho. I've been brewing and drinking IPA's for a long long time, and from my first taste of a weldwerks juicy bits, it was pretty clear that it is a completely different animal. I spend time in bend every year visiting breweries, and as of last spring, have not tasted anything close to the flavor of NEIPA. I think boneyard makes some very nice beers, but to suggest that they are like a NEIPA but not as cloudy is just dumb. The flavors are completely different, and so is the texture and mouthfeel. I like both styles btw.

 

[Cevan65]

HF, Trillium, Treehouse and Other Half don't need to worry about shelf life because they lack the capacity to create significant shelf life despite the hype. Don't get me wrong here, they probably make very good tasting fresh beer.

Goose Island makes very profitable beer. That's why AB/InBev bought them. They use minimal ingredients to maximize profit while maintaining long shelf stability that zero small NEIPA brewers can match. I'm absolutely certain Goose would make a better, shelf stable beer than any of the hyped small NE breweries using 4oz of hops per 5 gallon batch.. Budweiser is not a joke in terms of brewing science. They actually employ many real life brewing scientists!

TH's business model is to brew 3000-4000 cases of beer and sell them all on site in 3-4 days. Their new place is probably paid off already.

TH hyped? Please back this statement up. They have had lines of people buying their beer for more than 5 years. If it was just hype, they'd be out of business.

If you don't like it, don't buy it. Don't complain about it.