Hose size and other Qs for 1st time keg filling

[Sequoiacider]

I've been brewing and bottling for years and am (finally) getting ready to order what I need to start kegging my brews. I have a couple questions to help ensure that I order everything I need on the first try.
A few details that may be useful:
- Cider will be uncarbonated when filling keg.
- Priming sugar will be added to fermenter just before keg filling for keg conditioning.
- Kegs will be filled from Stainless Conical Fermenter using Ball-Lock Liquid Disconnect attached to Tri-clamp racking port.
- Fermenter will be pressurized via Ball-lock Gas Disconnect attached to Tri-clamp blow-off port.
- Kegs will be purged of O2 beforehand.
- Kegs will be filled through the Liquid-out post so it fills from the bottom.

My questions:
1) I understand that 3/16" ID hose is typically used for serving, but I was wondering if I would benefit from using larger diameter 5/16" ID hose for filling the kegs from my fermenter, or if there are reasons not to do so.
2) What pressure should I use for filling? I'm thinking 2-3 PSI. My fermenter is rated for up to 15 PSI.
3) Should I manually pull the PRV as the keg is filling to relieve pressure, or is it better to attach a hose routed into a bucket of sanitizer to the Gas post of the keg to allow pressure to relieve on its own as the keg fills?
4) In the past I have always bottle-conditioned. Should I use the same ratio of Priming Sugar as I typically use for bottling, or do I need to adjust the ratio of priming sugar for Keg conditioning?
5) Is there anything else I am missing or important info I should know?

 

[Dr_Jeff]

Answers:
1) The diptube in the keg is 1/4", so that is the limiting factor.
2) 15 is fine since your fermenter can hold that much pressure, the amount of time that it takes will be the only issue. I use 30psi to transfer fully or mostly carbonated beer.
3) Either way works fine, I use a spunding valve to control the foam and flow rate. If you pull the ring or just leave it open, if you have more than five gallons, it will come out through the valve and you will need to rinse the top of your keg, I might suggest a plastic bottle, connected to the gas out line, so that you can drink any overages and if you happen to knock it over, it won't break.
4) Rule of thumb when kegging, use half as much, depending on the carbonation level that you would like to have The kegs are rated to 130psi, but I would recommend getting anywhere close to that, given the age of most used kegs.
5) nope, that's pretty much it.

 

[mongoose33]

My questions:
1) I understand that 3/16" ID hose is typically used for serving, but I was wondering if I would benefit from using larger diameter 5/16" ID hose for filling the kegs from my fermenter, or if there are reasons not to do so.

You're limited by what the QD will pass. I've found that I do well with a 5/16" line, don't know if a 1/4" line would do as well.

BTW, I always run some beer (I don't do cider) through the line to clear the racking arm of my fermenter, and push out the air. I use a jumper post (from BrewHardware) to open up the QD to do that:

2) What pressure should I use for filling? I'm thinking 2-3 PSI. My fermenter is rated for up to 15 PSI.

Depends on if the cider is already carbonated. I carb my beer in the fermenter and at crash temps, typically have 7-8 psi carbonation. I push that out with about 13psi.

Try the 2-3 psi, see if you're happy with the results. If your cider is carbonated, you'll want something like a spunding valve to keep resulting foam down.

3) Should I manually pull the PRV as the keg is filling to relieve pressure, or is it better to attach a hose routed into a bucket of sanitizer to the Gas post of the keg to allow pressure to relieve on its own as the keg fills?

Filling will slow as the pressure inside the keg equalizes, so holding the PRV open will prevent that. You can also do the hose off the gas post thing, but it's easier to just let the PRV relieve the pressure. As the gas inside the keg escapes, you're not going to get anything in there that might infect it.

4) In the past I have always bottle-conditioned. Should I use the same ratio of Priming Sugar as I typically use for bottling, or do I need to adjust the ratio of priming sugar for Keg conditioning?

Same amount. There's a direct relationship between the amount of sugar and the resulting volumes of carbonation, and it is the volume of carbonation on which you should focus.

5) Is there anything else I am missing or important info I should know?

This is just general info that might or might not be valuable to you now or later. I have a conical fermenter, and early on, I attached a liquid post to the fermenter and used a jumper (black QD on both ends) to move the beer from the fermenter to the keg.



At some point I decided to try to use a camlock post on the fermenter and just use one QD, with a larger line. Wow, did things ever speed up doing that. That's all I do now, and the fermenter empties, depending on how much I push it out with CO2, in 5-7 minutes usually.



Old Way:



New, Faster Way:

 

[Sequoiacider]

Thanks for the helpful info, Dr Jeff and Mongoose.

Looks like my setup will be identical to Mongoose's old, slower way (I also have a Spike CF10, awesome piece of equipment).
The 2 QD jumper I ordered has 5/16 line. It was only a few cents more than the one with 3/16 line, and I figured since I am filling while uncarbonated there are no foaming issues to worry about from changes in line width as it travels. Good to know that I can upgrade to camlock post on the fermenter later if I am unsatisfied with the flow rates.

I'll start with a few PSI, and increase from there if I feel the need since I am filling while uncarbonated.

I think I'll use a little less priming sugar than normal. My understanding is that it is much easier to pump in some extra CO2 later if it is under-carbonated (one of the huge advantages of kegging over bottling), but it is a bit more difficult (though still doable) to fix over-carbonation.

Thanks for the tip about the jumper post to use liquid to clear the air from the line, I'll definitely pick up one of those.
My other idea for purging the line of O2 was to attach the QD jumper to the empty keg with just one QD attached on the jumper and then pump some CO2 from the keg through the line, and then attach the second QD to the jumper line. That way the line is filled with CO2 instead of air.

 

[mongoose33]

Thanks for the helpful info, Dr Jeff and Mongoose.

Looks like my setup will be identical to Mongoose's old, slower way (I also have a Spike CF10, awesome piece of equipment).
The 2 QD jumper I ordered has 5/16 line. It was only a few cents more than the one with 3/16 line, and I figured since I am filling while uncarbonated there are no foaming issues to worry about from changes in line width as it travels. Good to know that I can upgrade to camlock post on the fermenter later if I am unsatisfied with the flow rates.

I'll start with a few PSI, and increase from there if I feel the need since I am filling while uncarbonated.

You can even just try it using gravity. Slower, but no use of CO2. That said, I use the CO2.

I think I'll use a little less priming sugar than normal. My understanding is that it is much easier to pump in some extra CO2 later if it is under-carbonated (one of the huge advantages of kegging over bottling), but it is a bit more difficult (though still doable) to fix over-carbonation.

That's true. What I do with mine is I close up the fermenter with about 5-7 points of gravity remaining and let the beer self-carbonate, just as if I'd added priming sugar. I can't get it completely carbed, but it mostly is carbed, ending up typically about 7-8 psi at 38 degrees. Then I connect the CO2 to that keg in my keezer and either burst carb it (30 psi for 5 or 6 hours), or just set it at serving pressure and let it go until it's carbed. Depends on how quickly I want that beer carbonated.

Thanks for the tip about the jumper post to use liquid to clear the air from the line, I'll definitely pick up one of those.
My other idea for purging the line of O2 was to attach the QD jumper to the empty keg with just one QD attached on the jumper and then pump some CO2 from the keg through the line, and then attach the second QD to the jumper line. That way the line is filled with CO2 instead of air.

Anything that eliminates air coming into the keg is a good thing. What I liked about the jumper post idea is it lets me do a quick surge of beer into a plastic pitcher, which clears out yeast and trub that's settled in the racking arm--which I do not want going into my keg if I can avoid it.

I'll typically clear about 4 ounces or so, enough that I can fill my hydrometer cylinder to confirm final gravity.

Then I turn off the butterfly valve, remove the jumper post, and my line to the QD is filled with beer, not air, so nothing gets in the keg that I don't want.