home made sanitiser
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Weezy
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Mixing vinegar and bleach is a no no. The chemical reaction releases chlorine gas.
Weezy
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Um, that's not how chemistry works bub. Do your lungs a favor and don't do it.
You can use chlorine alone as a sanitizer. Vinegar is used more as a cleaner.
You can use chlorine alone as a sanitizer. Vinegar is used more as a cleaner.
In all honesty why bother? Starsan is dirt cheap if you work it out to how much per batch. I got one of the 8oz bottles and after nearly a year there is a barely noticeable amount gone from the container. It's going to be less than $1 per year to use the stuff.
freisste
Well-Known Member
I'm not saying you should make your concoction or not (and for the record I agree that starsan is really cheap), but the big no-no is mixing bleach and ammonia. Lots of people have been seriously injured and some have died.
And they added water, too. That doesn't make it safe.
And they added water, too. That doesn't make it safe.
Xpertskir
Well-Known Member
Yes, throwing conventional brewing wisdom out the window is a good idea. Why would anyone want to use a proven and easy product like starsan, especially since most brewers who predate the product are of the opinion that it's one of the best things to happen to brewing.
Doesn't Vinegar leave a strong after-taste that might give off flavors in the beer? If you then rinse with regular water to rid of the after taste, you will negate the sterilization. +1 on Starsan.
I don't think that was the point of people telling you not to mix bleach and vinegar together. The point was to inform and warn you that mixing the two, no matter what way you decide to do it, will result in a chemical reaction that is harmful. Whether you decide not to buy Star San or go with a homemade remedy, be careful. People use diluted bleach all of the time. I am afraid to use it in brewing, to be honest. There's no discernible reason for my fear, just that I don't like messing with chemicals that I wouldn't normally ingest.
Thanks Hello
That's constructive and to the point
I'll get star san next time I just needed something quick cause I was stuck and couldn't leave the house
Thanks for all of those who replied back
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That's constructive and to the point
I'll get star san next time I just needed something quick cause I was stuck and couldn't leave the house
Thanks for all of those who replied back
Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew
Just use the bleach as the sanitizer, if you don't have Star-San, just do not mix anything with it, and rinse very well.
TasunkaWitko
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Why?
Beer is good
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My dude, even if you dilute your bleach with water before adding vinegar, the vinegar will still react with the bleach and release chlorine gas. I guess if you have trouble sleeping at night you can use this sanitizer to help with that, but you will never wake up.
Several people prior to KeninMN already gave you the eye opener and told you that this is a combination than can kill you.
There are entire countries on this planet where bleach isn't even for sale to the general public, precisely for this reason. It's no longer possible for private people to purchase bleach in most European Union countries, for example. Governments don't want people to be inadvertently (or advertently) producing chemical weapons in their kitchens.
It's even gotten to the point where items produced from pure white fabric are being specially taxed due to environmental reasons.
Just for the record, Charley Talley of Five Star chemicals has said that you can produce an effective sanitizer by mixing water, bleach, and vinegar in this manner. I believe it was in either a Brewing Network or Basic Brewing podcast. I used the method to bottle a batch of beer myself. If you are going to attempt it, search out the podcast and listen to it.
That being said, I would advise against it. Starsan is cheap and worry free.
That being said, I would advise against it. Starsan is cheap and worry free.
JMSetzler
Well-Known Member
1 tablespoon of bleach per gallon of water makes a workable sanitizing solution. You don't need the vinegar. You just need 3 or 4 minutes of contact time with the solution and then you must rinse it off.
about.com isn't much of a source, IMHO. I guess it's better than nothing.
Bleach plus an acid is not really a problem unless the pH drops below 4. http://oregonstate.edu/dept/larc//sites/default/files/pdf/chlorine-fact-sheet.pdf
Vinegar has a pH of about 3, so you could potentially get in trouble if you mixed undiluted bleach and vinegar (I need to try it outdoors and see if it will release Cl2 gas.) To make a sanitizing solution the bleach would be highly diluted in water first -- then add just enough vinegar to acidify it to a pH of about 5.
Bleach plus an acid is not really a problem unless the pH drops below 4. http://oregonstate.edu/dept/larc//sites/default/files/pdf/chlorine-fact-sheet.pdf
Vinegar has a pH of about 3, so you could potentially get in trouble if you mixed undiluted bleach and vinegar (I need to try it outdoors and see if it will release Cl2 gas.) To make a sanitizing solution the bleach would be highly diluted in water first -- then add just enough vinegar to acidify it to a pH of about 5.
ericbw
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Wait, so it's ok to do it after all. That's a funny turn this thread took. Still, what's the advantage of adding vinegar anyway?
Flavor.:rockin:
Orrrr just use Starsan. Accidents happen because people read advice like this and think they'll be safe messing around with it but make a mistake in their calculations, measurements, etc.
http://www.forceflow.com/hypochlorite/SodiumHypoIncompatibilityChart.pdf
Oregon State college has access to mass spectrometers, chemists, chemical engineers, and containment facilities incase the poop hits the fan. The OP most likely has access to none of those safety features. Too much one way or another and you can release chlorine gas OR you may end up creating chlorine saturated water(http://www.sciencelab.com/msds.php?msdsId=9925756). Both are toxic enough to require a trip to the hospital if exposed in the right amounts.
Too little and you will make an ineffective sanitizer and waste beer.
In the end it is safer(both to you and the beer) to just use an off the shelf sanitizer.
Damn even on break I'm still a science teacher......
Just to try and help out... I went and found the podcast I was referring to. It's the 3/29/07 Basic Brewing Podcast. The Interview with Charlie begins at the 13:00 minute mark and the discussion regarding sanitizing w/ Bleach begins @ 19:00 minutes in.
The entire interview, while a little old, has a lot of good information about both bleach and StarSan.
Again, I don't use or recommend this technique. But the question was asked.
Bleach is fine as a sanitizer and it is considered "no rinse" up to 200 ppm. One tablespoon per gallon is about 200 ppm with sprayed surface contact time of one minute. No rinsing is required.
That being said, I'm not a fan of bleach in a brewery because it reacts with phenols (wood, plant material) to form undesirable compounds (2,4,6-trichloroanisole (TCA)) among other things.
That being said, I'm not a fan of bleach in a brewery because it reacts with phenols (wood, plant material) to form undesirable compounds (2,4,6-trichloroanisole (TCA)) among other things.
