Higher grade custom brewing question... careless process and adding brandy to 10 day old PF?

[George MacDonald]

so I experimented. It isnt really about money or cost. I dont really care about the expense lost or what a failed batch would have lost me. I did not have time or opportunity to brew for an entire year... I usually brew in winter when my home temp is about 20C... I had bought grain and liquid and dry malt too but only got around to brewing a year later... Grains partial mashed was crushed before the mash but the grains were old. I also opted to boil grains and then sparge after 20 minutes to get a nice flavor but wet and dry malted 50/50 up to 1.055 to give decent ipa abv. I pitched dry yeast into the wort at around 30 C and the yeast was us05 and champagne yeast 50/50. Within the first 30 hours the majority of the fermentation was done and the two 22L(5 gallon) buckets went quiet at around 1.024 and 1.022
I repitched pure activated champagne yeast starters 5 days in and it bubbled for an hour or two then went dormant. a week in I checked gravity again ( it was on 1.020 and 1.022) and pitched activated us05 starters again and again it bubbled for a few hours and went dormant. The fg is about 1.020 for both brews 7 days in. I will allow it to sit for another 10 days, but I want to know...

If there are unfermentables in the mix I would still bottle and bottle condition... OG on the first batch is 1.054 and the second is 1.044 so final abv of 1.020 on both would give quite low abv... I am intending on upping the abv by adding a 750ml bottle of brandy to each 22L bucket a day or two before bottling to up the abv (which would raise it by about 1.65% per batch...) and to improve the flavor a tad which seems to be quite sour due to the higher temp initial fermentation rate and the current prevalence of yeast in the wort, hoping that it may clear up the sour misty mess a bit as well.

What do you predict would happen on this experimental batch? I will do what I intent anyways, and will let you know about the results in the end... I am just curious to know if anyone else has ever done this kind of unconcerned brew where whatever happens is in the name of science rather than cost and care...?

Thank you for your input. I live in Cape Town, South Africa where temp is quite high now during summer. My house is a wooden cottage and gets very hot. average temperature in the fermenting room is around 25-30C. brew stays at around 22C under an insulation blanket

 

[Pappers_]

A couple of thoughts:

1) you say you boiled the grains - you mean as a part of the mash? High mash temp will give you a lot of unfermentables leaving you with a high FG.

2) high fermentation temp doesn't lead to sour flavors, it might lead to fruity esters or spicy/chemical/rubber phenols, but not sour. If your beer is sour, you've got another issue

3) if you have to ferment at high temps, you might look at Omega Yeast's Hot Head ale yeast, which is designed to ferment at higher temps and still give a relatively 'clean' flavor profile.

 

[cactusgarrett]

3) if you have to ferment at high temps, you might look at Omega Yeast's Hot Head ale yeast, which is designed to ferment at higher temps and still give a relatively 'clean' flavor profile.

Or look into using various strains of kveik.

 

[kh54s10]

Or get some form of cooling chamber.

Nothing lost except 2 bottles of brandy if it doesn't work. It's your decision on whether you think it is worth it.

 

[George MacDonald]

A couple of thoughts:

1) you say you boiled the grains - you mean as a part of the mash? High mash temp will give you a lot of unfermentables leaving you with a high FG.

Hi there. Well I boiled the water and then steeped the grain for 10 minutes... then sparged and added the dme and lme but only to dissolve the dme really so it wouldn't be lumpy. added it all to the distilled water topup in the fermentation bucket, ran about 2L of that off and boiled up some hops for 5 minutes to add a bit of hop oils to the wort. Then closed up and sat it till evening to cool. once it hit 28-30C I pitched the yeast...

2) high fermentation temp doesn't lead to sour flavors, it might lead to fruity esters or spicy/chemical/rubber phenols, but not sour. If your beer is sour, you've got another issue

I suspect it has to do with the mix of us05 and champagne yeast which both were about a year old sitting in my fridge? I pitched dry.

3) if you have to ferment at high temps, you might look at Omega Yeast's Hot Head ale yeast, which is designed to ferment at higher temps and still give a relatively 'clean' flavor profile.

Thanks for the tip, I will see if I can source that yeast for summer brews... It is not easy to source novelty ingredients in Africa so we often have to make do with what we can get. The wine industry is big in SA, but the beer industry has been a closed corporation game since the colonisation of the country in 1652. Finding the right stuff is not always an easy task...

Thank you fro the feedback. appreciate it. G

 

[George MacDonald]

so I experimented. It isnt really about money or cost. I dont really care about the expense lost or what a failed batch would have lost me. I did not have time or opportunity to brew for an entire year... I usually brew in winter when my home temp is about 20C... I had bought grain and liquid and dry malt too but only got around to brewing a year later... Grains partial mashed was crushed before the mash but the grains were old. I also opted to boil grains and then sparge after 20 minutes to get a nice flavor but wet and dry malted 50/50 up to 1.055 to give decent ipa abv. I pitched dry yeast into the wort at around 30 C and the yeast was us05 and champagne yeast 50/50. Within the first 30 hours the majority of the fermentation was done and the two 22L(5 gallon) buckets went quiet at around 1.024 and 1.022
I repitched pure activated champagne yeast starters 5 days in and it bubbled for an hour or two then went dormant. a week in I checked gravity again ( it was on 1.020 and 1.022) and pitched activated us05 starters again and again it bubbled for a few hours and went dormant. The fg is about 1.020 for both brews 7 days in. I will allow it to sit for another 10 days, but I want to know...

If there are unfermentables in the mix I would still bottle and bottle condition... OG on the first batch is 1.054 and the second is 1.044 so final abv of 1.020 on both would give quite low abv... I am intending on upping the abv by adding a 750ml bottle of brandy to each 22L bucket a day or two before bottling to up the abv (which would raise it by about 1.65% per batch...) and to improve the flavor a tad which seems to be quite sour due to the higher temp initial fermentation rate and the current prevalence of yeast in the wort, hoping that it may clear up the sour misty mess a bit as well.

What do you predict would happen on this experimental batch? I will do what I intent anyways, and will let you know about the results in the end... I am just curious to know if anyone else has ever done this kind of unconcerned brew where whatever happens is in the name of science rather than cost and care...?

Thank you for your input. I live in Cape Town, South Africa where temp is quite high now during summer. My house is a wooden cottage and gets very hot. average temperature in the fermenting room is around 25-30C. brew stays at around 22C under an insulation blanket

update :

after pitching the us05 yesterday the activity upped a bit and slowed down again. both buckets now bubble about once an hour but it consistently bubbles so it is fermenting. I will leave it until it stops for 2 or 3 days altogether and then do a gravity reading. if it is below 1.018 I will add the brandy, cold crash it for 3 days and bottle with coopers carbonation drops.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I had bought grain and liquid and dry malt too but only got around to brewing a year later...

It's obviously not ideal, but if the grain has not been crushed then it's close to indestructable if stored at cool temperatures, and even a year at your kind of room temperatures shouldn't hurt it too much - certainly not from a mashing POV. Your mash seems to be the problem?

the yeast was us05 and champagne yeast 50/50. Within the first 30 hours the majority of the fermentation was done and the two 22L(5 gallon) buckets went quiet at around 1.024 and 1.022

Are you putting both in the same bucket, or in separate buckets? Could be a problem if you're mixing, as wine yeast usually killer factors that kill off most beer yeast. Wine yeast are also mostly POF+, which means that in beer they produce "Belgian" style phenolics like 4-VG (clove) - see this thread.

the sour misty mess a bit as well.

Hmm - "sour misty mess" doesn't sound good at all, I'd be tempted to just bin it, certainly not waste a bottle of brandy on it.

Thanks for the tip, I will see if I can source that yeast for summer brews... It is not easy to source novelty ingredients in Africa so we often have to make do with what we can get.

It's not all bad - there's some really interesting wine yeast coming out of Stellenbosch that are POF- so could be interesting in beer. They variously produce interesting esters etc for flavour, glycerol etc for mouthfeel, or can release flavour compounds bound up in hops. Scott Janish has been playing with the likes of VIN7 for hop release, and NT116 could be interesting for mouthfeel. I have seen 100g packs of NT116 for sale in SA but in general these yeast are either not available outside SA or at best available in commercial-size bricks of 500g or more. Perhaps you can find a homebrew club somewhere that has links to the uni, and might have access to some of them?

 

[George MacDonald]

It's obviously not ideal, but if the grain has not been crushed then it's close to indestructable if stored at cool temperatures, and even a year at your kind of room temperatures shouldn't hurt it too much - certainly not from a mashing POV. Your mash seems to be the problem?

Oh ok that is great news thank you.

Are you putting both in the same bucket, or in separate buckets? Could be a problem if you're mixing, as wine yeast usually killer factors that kill off most beer yeast. Wine yeast are also mostly POF+, which means that in beer they produce "Belgian" style phenolics like 4-VG (clove) - see this thread.

Yup. pitched two baggies mixed together 50/50 and then devided the 2 baggy mix in 2... so i guess i had half of each mixed together and perhaps not enough or not the best idea... as I said it was experimental and perhaps not the most successful experiment yet, however it did ferment down to 1.022 at least and I will do another gravity reading tonight to see where it is at now...

Hmm - "sour misty mess" doesn't sound good at all, I'd be tempted to just bin it, certainly not waste a bottle of brandy on it.

I think it was just the yeast in suspension... i have a sensitive palate for sours... i dont like sour beers.

It's not all bad - there's some really interesting wine yeast coming out of Stellenbosch that are POF- so could be interesting in beer. They variously produce interesting esters etc for flavour, glycerol etc for mouthfeel, or can release flavour compounds bound up in hops. Scott Janish has been playing with the likes of VIN7 for hop release, and NT116 could be interesting for mouthfeel. I have seen 100g packs of NT116 for sale in SA but in general these yeast are either not available outside SA or at best available in commercial-size bricks of 500g or more. Perhaps you can find a homebrew club somewhere that has links to the uni, and might have access to some of them?

I will make a note of this and see if I can source some! Thank you for the thorough reply

PS, I am probably bottling this weekend. not going to throw it out. I will throw it out of the bottles if it turns out crap... I will however not waste the brandy as you said.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Yup. pitched two baggies mixed together 50/50 and then devided the 2 baggy mix in 2... so i guess i had half of each mixed together and perhaps not enough or not the best idea... as I said it was experimental and perhaps not the most successful experiment yet, however it did ferment down to 1.022 at least and I will do another gravity reading tonight to see where it is at now...

Ah, that explains it. The wine yeast killed the US-05, but it can't process the complex carbohydrates you find in wort, so it only attenuates to something like the 63% you've experienced. If you're essentially restricted to dry yeasts, I'm not sure there's much you can do from a yeast point of view, other than to throw some enzymes in there that will release more simple sugars. If you can get the enzymes of course.

Might be worth just testing a bit of brandy in one or two to see how it goes, but you've got 4.6% or something already so not a waste of time.

 

[George MacDonald]

Sooooo. the one bucket obviously has an infection... I have decided to bottle the other one this weekend because the top is clear and the wort is at 1.020 and yeast is dropping out. This rotten one... im not sure what i will do with it... perhaps i will let it sit for 6 months and see if it settles out and clears enough to taste at some point. if the yeast will drop out I will consider the taste and if its ok and it doesnt give me the sh!tz I will bottle it all and drink it real cold like. lol

It looks amazingly beautiful though as it looks right now. the surface infection looks like the arctic

does anybody know what this is and if i leave it on top of the wort long enough will it only get worse or will it die eventually and leave me with of flavors...

or is this making it unsafe to stomache...? any feedback would be helpful. This is an experiment for me and it is an interesting one so far indeed.