High Hardness and On Demand Hot Water Heater

[calebstringer]

Hi everyone. I am installing a 185* instahot in my brewhaus. My issue is my total hardness is 300 ppm. Noritz (water heater brand) says I need a water softener above 190 ppm. But this is bad for all grain brewing?

Suggestions on what I should do? Can I install a water softener and use Potassium Chloride instead of sodium chloride?

Here is my water report:

pH 7.1
Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) Est, ppm 357
Electrical Conductivity, mmho/cm 0.60
Cations / Anions, me/L 6.6 / 7.2
ppm
Sodium, Na 10
Potassium, K 2
Calcium, Ca 76
Magnesium, Mg 28
Total Hardness, CaCO3 307
Nitrate, NO3-N 0.1 (SAFE)
Sulfate, SO4-S 13
Chloride, Cl 24
Carbonate, CO3 < 1
Bicarbonate, HCO3 349
Total Alkalinity, CaCO3 286
Fluoride, F 0.82
Total Iron, Fe 0.03
"<" - Not Detected / Below Detection Limit


any and all suggestions are appreciated!

 

[calebstringer]

just to clarify, Im adding this to allow me to eliminate my HLT

 

[ajdelange]

Your water is too hard and much too alkaline for brewing without treatment. The most feasible would probably be a water softener followed by an RO unit or,if you don't want to install hardware, you could lime soften or boil before each brew session. A large enough RO system i.e. one with a big pressure tank could probably be plumbed to an on demand water heater but whereas with the untreated (hard, alkaline) water situation your system would be limed up in short order with the RO system it would be corroded by the agressive low mineral water. Your situation is not enviable - this isn't good brewing water. Not sure what the best solution for you might be.

 

[calebstringer]

That is my water report AFTER running through a 2 micron carbon filter. I would really like to go with an RO setup at some point in the future, but right now, its way to expensive to get the output I would need. I generally brew 2-3 10 gallon batches per brew day.

What if I installed the water softener, treated with Potassium Chloride, added Magnesium and Calcium back into my mash (since the softener removes this) and treated remaining alkalinity with lactic or another acid?

Could I make great beer like that, until I can come up with the optimum RO scenario?

 

[calebstringer]

Im also wondering if my water is so crappy because I am 40 miles or so from the source? Many of the good minerals/ions precipitating out before reaching me? The kicker is, I am about 1 mile outside of the city limits, and I can the see the towns reservoirs from my house. But my water comes from two counties away...

 

[mchrispen]

I think AJ really covered your best options.

I have very alkaline water as well with a ton of sodium. RO was my best solution.

If your brewing needs require 50+ gallons an brew day, then you need to look at high flow systems with pumps, and pre-soften the water to maximize the life of expensive RO filters. I personally prioritize this over a water heater... The heaters lifespan will also be dramatically improved. Unfortunately, there is no simple solution. I cannot imagine transporting those amounts from a grocery RO system, but that maybe more economical in the short term.

 

[ajdelange]

Your fundamental problem is that you have 3.8 mVal hardness from calcium and another 2.3 from Mg for a total of 6.1. A softener will replace these with sodium (140 mg/L) or potassium (239 mg/L) depending on which sort of softener you choose. In either case that is a lot. You could probably make a tolerable beer with the sodium but I'm not so sure about potassium levels that high.

 

[calebstringer]

Well crap....

What type of RO setup would you recommend?

 

[FourSeasonAngler]

Is a water delivery service out of the question? I'm getting distilled water delivered to my door for $8/5gal jug. That would be what $80 per brew day for you? Not sure how much a high flow RO system will cost you though so you need to weigh out that cost as well.

I can justify my delivered water since I am only doing 10 gallon batches once a month, needing only 15 gallons a month in delivered water. Buying bulk grain & hops still makes my brew day cost very reasonable.

 

[calebstringer]

Is a water delivery service out of the question? I'm getting distilled water delivered to my door for $8/5gal jug. That would be what $80 per brew day for you? Not sure how much a high flow RO system will cost you though so you need to weigh out that cost as well.

I can justify my delivered water since I am only doing 10 gallon batches once a month, needing only 15 gallons a month in delivered water. Buying bulk grain & hops still makes my brew day cost very reasonable.

Yes and no. It isn't in the sense that that would be a lot cheaper up front. But I would need a storage tank w/ pump to feed my hot water heater....

Edit: 150/ month for 100 gal distiller water delivered...... I should've never looked at my water report and brewed mediocre beer. Lol

 

[calebstringer]

I have been overthinking this whole RO thing. I have been looking at these units that are $1000+, ones that would be close to the instant output I would need. However, I have access to many food grade IBC tanks (275 gallon plastic tanks). So on second thought, I can pick up one of these 75gpd units for $150, put a float valve in the tank, and then hook up a well pump from it to my hot water heater. Probably still looking at 3-400, but way cheaper than the big RO units

 

[MindenMan]

here is a link for a (realistic) 15 GPD RO unit. When you add the permiate filter it will run 35 gpd w/o fail.Add a 14 gallon tank, and for $286. plus shipping there you go.
https://www.freshwatersystems.com/S...gpd-nsf-certified-reverse-osmosis-system.aspx

Edit: I didn't see the plastic tanks you mentioned. Start @ $119. plus the permiate pump for $57, and you're golden.

 

[ajdelange]

You do not need to have an RO system that provides water at the peak rate you need it but rather one that provides your average need. Thus a slower unit filling an atmospheric tank in reasonable time (starting a day or 2 before brew day) is fine. Higher rate units are able to deliver more flow because they are equipped with pumps which add $.

Keep in mind that RO water is corrosive. If circulated through plumbing (or your heater) continuously or frequently non metallic plumbing must be used. If used infrequently and flushed with your tap water after use then this should not be necessary.

 

[chrishanson]

I have super hard water at home (I don't have the stats but it would clog up shower heads and faucet aerators about once a month)

I had a whole house tankless water heater completely clog up in less than 5 years. I'd suggest putting in the softener just to protect the hardware.

 

[calebstringer]

Ok, so here is what I am going to do. Water line into water softener with regular ol' sodium chloride salt. From Softener, ran into RO system, into 275 gallon storage tank. From the storage tank, pumped to my on demand water heater. But as AJ pointed out, RO water is corrosive to copper (which is what the heat exchanger in the water heater is made up of). So what additions can I add to my storage tank to have a generic water profile ready for brewing, and then finish off my ion additions in the mash?

Does that make sense?

I dont want pure RO running into my water heater. So I need to pre-treat it before it gets there.

I will get pics of my set up once its all installed. (hopefully over this weekend/next weekend)

Thanks again for all the water knowledge

Caleb

 

[ajdelange]

Ok, so here is what I am going to do. Water line into water softener with regular ol' sodium chloride salt. From Softener, ran into RO system, into 275 gallon storage tank. From the storage tank, pumped to my on demand water heater. But as AJ pointed out, RO water is corrosive to copper (which is what the heat exchanger in the water heater is made up of). So what additions can I add to my storage tank to have a generic water profile ready for brewing, and then finish off my ion additions in the mash?

To protect plumbing you need both calcium hardness and alkalinity - just the things you seek to remove with RO. I'd suggest plumbing the system with plastic up to the atmospheric tank (which I believe is to be plastic) but with valves arranged so that you can flush the RO water out of any metallic plumbing (use PEX?), the heater and any metalic plumbing downstream of that with tap water.

I dont want pure RO running into my water heater. So I need to pre-treat it before it gets there.

When I say corrosive this does not mean corrosive in the sense that nitric acid would be. If you only use the system when you brew and flush it (or even if you don't) you should be OK for a very long time.

 

[calebstringer]

To protect plumbing you need both calcium hardness and alkalinity - just the things you seek to remove with RO. I'd suggest plumbing the system with plastic up to the atmospheric tank (which I believe is to be plastic) but with valves arranged so that you can flush the RO water out of any metallic plumbing (use PEX?), the heater and any metalic plumbing downstream of that with tap water.

When I say corrosive this does not mean corrosive in the sense that nitric acid would be. If you only use the system when you brew and flush it (or even if you don't) you should be OK for a very long time.

Running plastic lines from the tank to the heater is easy enough to do. I guess I can build a system of valves into it so that I can flush the heater out with softened water.

So the recommendation isnt to prebuild the water? I realize the RO is stripping out most of the hardness and alkalinity. I need to because of having such high levesl. Im also aware that I need some of that present in my brew water. Thats why I was asking.

thanks again

 

[ajdelange]

So the recommendation isnt to prebuild the water? I realize the RO is stripping out most of the hardness and alkalinity. I need to because of having such high levesl. Im also aware that I need some of that present in my brew water.

thanks again

You can certainly prebuild the water in the storage tank but unless you add some alkalinity (which you will only need to do rarely i.e. when brewing a beer with lots of dark malt) you can't rely on the addition of minerals to protect your plumbing. Water with no alkalinity is aggressive. But then so is water with no hardness. I don't think people appreciate the fact that softened water will erode their plumbing. But keep in mind that this doesn't happen in a matter of weeks but rather years. It is just fewer years than it would be with hard and alkaline water.

 

[calebstringer]

I found a somewhat simpler solution. I still have to have to holding tank. But I found out my local water is way better than my parents. So I have two tanks, one to fill at home or the reservoir, and one that supplies my brewhaus. Check out the difference be tween my parents water and mine:

PARENTS WATER

pH 7.1

Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) Est, ppm 357
Electrical Conductivity, mmho/cm 0.60
Cations / Anions, me/L / 7.2 6.6

Sodium, Na 10
Potassium, K 2
Calcium, Ca 76
Magnesium, Mg 28
Total Hardness, CaCO3 307
Nitrate, NO3-N 0.1 (SAFE)
Sulfate, SO4-S 13
Chloride, Cl 24
Carbonate, CO3 < 1
Bicarbonate, HCO3 349
Total Alkalinity, CaCO3 286
Fluoride, F 0.82
Total Iron, Fe 0.03

MY WATER:
pH 8.1

Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) Est, ppm 179
Electrical Conductivity, mmho/cm 0.30
Cations / Anions, me/L / 2.9 2.8


Sodium, Na 18
Potassium, K 5
Calcium, Ca 24 Magnesium, Mg 8
Total Hardness, CaCO3 93
Nitrate, NO3-N < 0.1 (SAFE)
Sulfate, SO4-S 5
Chloride, Cl 25 Carbonate, CO3 6
Bicarbonate, HCO3 105
Total Alkalinity, CaCO3 96
Total Phosphorus, P 0.39
Total Iron, Fe < 0.01

The first batch I brewed with my water, hit 5.5 ph without any lactic. It would've taken me 12-16ML of 88% to do that before. Happy so far! I'll get pics of my water setup this week and post them