High Gravity Custom eBIAB System

[Austin_]

Batch #4 in the books. Everything ran smoothly last night on a simple 4.5% pilsner. 76% efficiency. I was able to recirc the whole time without any excessive temp spikes or stuck sparge-like issues. There were a couple small temp spikes as the temps were going up between steps, but they evened back out rather quickly. Did 40 minute rest at 146, then a 40 minute rest at 160, then a 168 mashout.

 

[4of7]

2 2v ebiab...oh I like it...

 

[Beer-lord]

Batch #4 in the books. Everything ran smoothly last night on a simple 4.5% pilsner. 76% efficiency. I was able to recirc the whole time without any excessive temp spikes or stuck sparge-like issues. There were a couple small temp spikes as the temps were going up between steps, but they evened back out rather quickly. Did 40 minute rest at 146, then a 40 minute rest at 160, then a 168 mashout.

Glad to hear it. I'm having trouble finding time to brew my #4 on my system.
Did you do anything differently this time? Crush, pump volume, etc?

 

[Austin_]

Did you do anything differently this time? Crush, pump volume, etc?

Same crush as before. My gap is set to my credit card. I did take some advice from one of the other threads linked in here and let the mash sit for 10 minutes before firing up the pump to recirc. I'm not sure if it made any difference, but it didn't hurt anything either.

 

[Beer-lord]

Same crush as before. My gap is set to my credit card. I did take some advice from one of the other threads linked in here and let the mash sit for 10 minutes before firing up the pump to recirc. I'm not sure if it made any difference, but it didn't hurt anything either.

Thanks, I assume you're efficiency was fine. I'm going to try the same next time and let it sit but if that doesn't work, I may just add a hose and let it sit in the grain. Still tweaking as I go.

 

[4of7]

Believe me, it's been fine. Once you learn how to control the wort levels the foam is never an issue. Remember I've been brewing a lot on this system for over 4 years now. Don't fear the foam. The oxygen is removed during the boil, only to be put back prior to pitching the yeast. The only clogging I ever have is when an errant bit of grain escapes the bag and lodges in the spray nozzle prefilter or a quick connect valve. But cleaning the prefilter after each brew eliminates that issue.

My 15-gallon setup maxes out with 23 pounds of grains and 12 gallons of mash water and produces 10-gallons of 6% beer. When a grain bag shows signs of wear, has holes large enough to let bits of grain sneak through, I put it inside another bag. Using a double bag shaves some cost off having to buy new bags. I started doing this when waiting for new HG bags to be delivered and had zero problems with it.

Could you explain to how the oxygen gets removed during the boil

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

Could you explain to how the oxygen gets removed during the boil

Boiling wort drives off DMS and oxygen. In the simplest terms because cold water holds more oxygen than hot water. Put a glass of cold water on a table as an example. If left at room temperature you see bubbles form in the water as it warms up. There's an entire market built around getting oxygen back into wort prior to fermentation. Including oxygen tanks, gauges, .5 micron diffusion, aquarium air pumps, and .2 micron air stones. I'll leave detailing the exact science behind how this happens to others.

 

[Elky]

Boiling wort drives off DMS and oxygen. In the simplest terms because cold water holds more oxygen than hot water. Put a glass of cold water on a table as an example. If left at room temperature you see bubbles form in the water as it warms up. There's an entire market built around getting oxygen back into wort prior to fermentation. Including oxygen tanks, gauges, .5 micron diffusion, aquarium air pumps, and .2 micron air stones. I'll leave detailing the exact science behind this happens to others.

I was under the impression that while the boil does drive off any free oxygen, the reactions referred to as oxidation have already taken place. Is that incorrect?

 

[4of7]

Boiling wort drives off DMS and oxygen. In the simplest terms because cold water holds more oxygen than hot water. Put a glass of cold water on a table as an example. If left at room temperature you see bubbles form in the water as it warms up. There's an entire market built around getting oxygen back into wort prior to fermentation. Including oxygen tanks, gauges, .5 micron diffusion, aquarium air pumps, and .2 micron air stones. I'll leave detailing the exact science behind this happens to others.

Thanks. I have well water ,so there only the oxygen that's in the ground water,, I don't see alot of gassing that's I have with city water,my v2 ebiab is a mash tun with false bottom and 2 bags. I pump water from St/bk to the mt at the bottom of the kettle, to cover the grain bed by inch of water and let it sit,, when I am mashing out I will bring the bk up to 170 and start to recirculate , but not with the spray head with a arm, I do see bubbles at that time but not much, my boils are not going crazy but I can see where if I have very strong boils it would off gas oxygen . once I get the brew ready for pitching , I will dump yeast in keg and pump from the BK on to it making lots of air bubbles.. thanks for your reply, even if you call your self screwy,, I like to hear and read other's brewing , I went to your site, great information. I am not a "Beer Troll".. I will be returning to read more.. thanks again for your time and help

 

[zeptrey]

I was under the impression that while the boil does drive off any free oxygen, the reactions referred to as oxidation have already taken place. Is that incorrect?

Yep. But there are ways to mitigate those reactions during the mash. Look at the lodo forum there is all kinds of info there about that stuff.

 

[BrunDog]

I was under the impression that while the boil does drive off any free oxygen, the reactions referred to as oxidation have already taken place. Is that incorrect?

Exactly... oxygen doesn't sit and wait... it negatively affects the mash throughout. Again, doesn't mean non-LODO beer isn't good, but the science is real.

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

I was under the impression that while the boil does drive off any free oxygen, the reactions referred to as oxidation have already taken place. Is that incorrect?

I wish I could say firsthand that I know what oxidized beer tastes like. Apparently it’s never been an issue in my beer. Or I don’t know what oxidized beer tastes like. That’s the only thing I can think of either way.

 

[BrunDog]

Probable reality is we don't know what un-oxidized beer tastes like. Unless you have had one (I haven't) brewed using LODO techniques (or massive commercial operations which use it... like AB supposedly), we can't make make any comparisons. Anyway, we beat this to death - sorry to divert this thread at all!

 

[Beer-lord]

I say if you like the beer you brew, keep brewing it the way you do. If you don't like it, then start trying other things.

 

[Beer-lord]

So far I've got 3 brews in (social life has been busy) and I'm planning a 4th soon with 3 lbs of Mecca Grade Rye. So, while not taking chances for another temp spike or stuck mash, I'm going to try, for the first time ever in my BIAB world, 1/2 lb of rice hulls. Might not help but it definitely can't hurt, right?
I've read tons and tons and tons of posts all over the net about recirculation BIAB and stuck mash and so many people just don't recirc after these problems. Mine are minor and can be worked with but a coarser grain isn't working much better so after the rice hulls try, I think I'm going to condition the grain and try that. I really believe many of the popular bags along with a not nearly 'holy' enough basket is restricting the flow but 3 brews is not enough for me to have this tweaked yet. I know I'll get this little challenge worked out.

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

So far I've got 3 brews in (social life has been busy) and I'm planning a 4th soon with 3 lbs of Mecca Grade Rye. So, while not taking chances for another temp spike or stuck mash, I'm going to try, for the first time ever in my BIAB world, 1/2 lb of rice hulls. Might not help but it definitely can't hurt, right?
I've read tons and tons and tons of posts all over the net about recirculation BIAB and stuck mash and so many people just don't recirc after these problems. Mine are minor and can be worked with but a coarser grain isn't working much better so after the rice hulls try, I think I'm going to condition the grain and try that. I really believe many of the popular bags along with a not nearly 'holy' enough basket is restricting the flow but 3 brews are not enough for me to have this tweaked yet. I know I'll get this little challenge worked out.

@Beer-lord I hate to hear you're still having issues with your HG system. Are you running your pump at full throttle? I ask since that's how I run mine and never had the issues your facing.

 

[4of7]

So far I've got 3 brews in (social life has been busy) and I'm planning a 4th soon with 3 lbs of Mecca Grade Rye. So, while not taking chances for another temp spike or stuck mash, I'm going to try, for the first time ever in my BIAB world, 1/2 lb of rice hulls. Might not help but it definitely can't hurt, right?
I've read tons and tons and tons of posts all over the net about recirculation BIAB and stuck mash and so many people just don't recirc after these problems. Mine are minor and can be worked with but a coarser grain isn't working much better so after the rice hulls try, I think I'm going to condition the grain and try that. I really believe many of the popular bags along with a not nearly 'holy' enough basket is restricting the flow but 3 brews is not enough for me to have this tweaked yet. I know I'll get this little challenge worked out.

I do full recirculation Brew mash and have not had stuck mashes with full volume course your mileage may vary. Most of my grain bills are over 20 lb with no problems other than tweaking the pumps for the circulation but that's normal

 

[Beer-lord]

Screwy, I've tried the pump at all levels. Even at a trickle after some time, I need to stop the pump and stir and move the bag around. I'm only trying rice hulls next time because I have 3 lbs of rye and I don't want to take a chance that it gets worse. When I go back to no rye, I'll try a few other things and see how that works out.
Basically, I have the kettle valve open all the way and have tried full to almost no flow with varying results.
Dave did send me the older (like you have) spray valve for the lid to try though I'm not sure that will make much difference. But, this is really not a huge deal as the system is really still a dream for me. I have no doubt that I'll get things worked out in the next few brews.

 

[zeptrey]

Screwy, I've tried the pump at all levels. Even at a trickle after some time, I need to stop the pump and stir and move the bag around. I'm only trying rice hulls next time because I have 3 lbs of rye and I don't want to take a chance that it gets worse. When I go back to no rye, I'll try a few other things and see how that works out.
Basically, I have the kettle valve open all the way and have tried full to almost no flow with varying results.
Dave did send me the older (like you have) spray valve for the lid to try though I'm not sure that will make much difference. But, this is really not a huge deal as the system is really still a dream for me. I have no doubt that I'll get things worked out in the next few brews.

What efficiencies are you getting on the system thus far?

 

[Beer-lord]

What efficiencies are you getting on the system thus far?

68%, 72%, 72% in my first 3 batches. Pretty much what I was getting with my old system.
First beer (amber) was so-so but not due to the system, it was a non complex recipe that was bland. The last 2 were extremely good and enjoyable by all who tasted them (though the black IPA has only been in the keg for 1 week).
As I said, I'm very pleased with this system and recommend it.

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

What efficiencies are you getting on the system thus far?

I'm getting 75-78% efficiency.

 

[Beer-lord]

I'm getting 75-78% efficiency.

Any idea what your mill is set to? After I do the rye recipe, I'm going to try a few things differently. Crush at about .040-.042, let the grains sit the first 10 minutes after doughing in before I recirc and try a Wilser bag instead of the BrewBag and start with a very slow flow and increase a bit as it goes thru the mash.
I do think it's a matter of tweaking to get where I want to be but there are many others like me in the EBIAB Recirc world with the same challenge. And I've read almost everyone of them.

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

Any idea what your mill is set to? After I do the rye recipe, I'm going to try a few things differently. Crush at about .040-.042, let the grains sit the first 10 minutes after doughing in before I recirc and try a Wilser bag instead of the BrewBag and start with a very slow flow and increase a bit as it goes thru the mash.
I do think it's a matter of tweaking to get where I want to be but there are many others like me in the EBIAB Recirc world with the same challenge. And I've read almost every one of them.

I have my grains crushed at The Brewers Apprentice, double crushed actually but I'm not sure what they gap their mill at. I do a fairly thin mash between 2 to 2.3 quarts per pound. Not sure if that helps. After adding the grains I turn the pump on and let it run unthrottled. Every 15-20 minutes I lift the lid and give the mash a good stir. So far this works for me. In time you'll nail your process down too.

 

[4of7]

Beer troll adding that after I mash in I will put the water from the bottom and fill it all the way up full volume usually around 12 and a half gallons of water. I will stir that in then let it sit for 30 minutes pull water from the bottom into a pot dump it again on the top do that 3 times do usually about a gallon each time then hook everything up for a full recirculation with the other pot and let It go for the whole hour. I don't restart as I think that it will just mess up something I will research just the way it is full volume tweaking the hard part is tweaking in both the pumps for a balance again it's the hard part is the tweaking

 

[Austin_]

I think I have this thing dialed in. Ran it through the motions on the same simple 5 gallon pilsner recipe I've done on it twice already. Nailed every one of my numbers and improved my total time by 20 minutes. I keep threatening that I'll do a 10 gallon batch. Maybe next time?

 

[Yambor44]

I had issues with my original HG system. Basically it was getting a "stuck sparge" while recirculating. I called Dave and he suggested I purchase an additional ball valve and place it at the outflow of my Topsflow pump. Which I did, from him.

Still had the same challenge. So I did a little research and decided to purchase a 400 micron bag. Better, but still had a challenge with the wort leaving the kettle faster than the return (grain bed compacted). This was after I had my recirculation at a trickle into the top with the same head shown my Beer-Lord in post 140.

My last 2 brews I started the flow out slow in order to set the grain bed and after about 5 minutes I opened it up to what I felt was a good flow but not wide open. Never had the issue again on either brew. So hopefully thats the key for me.

My crush was set at .025 on my first 5 batches which is what Dave says they set their gap at for their kits. I moved it back to .035 (standard credit card thickness- although the new cards without the raised numbers may make it tighter) for the last two brews.

I have not been happy with the quality of the beer I have produced on my HG system. It's an off flavor and each batch that I have recirculated has the same "off" taste. I can't place it. I don't like it. My latest batch I changed my water profile and it is somewhat better, but still present.

I found this thread searching for a fix as I feel it has something to do with recirculation. Before I purchased a HG system I brewed a beta batch on a propane burner using a standard non recirculation BIAB technique to insure I was ready to start brewing again using this method. I heated the water to strike temp, killed the flame, added the bag (no basket), doughed in and covered the kettle with an old blanket for an hour during the mash. Only last 2ºF in one hour. Beer came out perfect. Which leads me to believe, for me, it had something to do with this system as the water and all other equipment was the same as what I was using for all of the HG brews with the exception of the latest one.

I do not want to give up on this system as it is the easiest I have tried by far (and I've tried a lot of them). So I will continue to work on what the cause may be. I have check everything from the kettle to the keg as far as cleanliness and sanitation goes.

A new development on my last two brews is I decided to check my actual strike water and mash temps. I found my temps to fluctuate being off anywhere from a minimum of 8º to a max of 11-12º. I always recirculate when heating the strike water. When mashing the average was 9-10º off. I used two of my calibrated (with boiling water at sea level) thermapens to double check what the PID was showing. I called HG Brew a couple of weeks ago about it but Dave was out for the day. I was told he would call me back the next day but never heard back from him.

Also, when running a test on 9 gallons of water this past week to verify the difference in temp readouts before calling them back, I noticed my PID readout jumping all over the place. Big jumps of up to 17º from one display reading to the next. Up and down. I called HGB again and again was told Dave was out and would return this past Thursday and would call me. Again, no call. I emailed them a short video today I took of the temp swings and asked to be called when they get back in. If I don't hear from them tomorrow I will give them a call back and report his recommendations here.

 

[tmendick]

You mention off-flavor from recircing with this system, I would recommend using the same system, but not recirculating. If you're comparing to a non-recirc I have a feeling you're getting some hot side oxidation.

 

[Beer-lord]

@Yambor44, please post back what you hear from Dave and keep us updated.

I've brewed 3 batches and even with the few challenges I posted about, I love this system and 2 of the 3 are outstanding beers that I'm still getting high compliments on. The first one was just a simple amber and while not outstanding, it's fine. The recipe was the problem, not the hardware.
Dave has emailed me back each time I asked a question and the 2 times I called for other information from the staff, I was helped so it is odd to hear you not getting contacted. I would definitely let him know.

Finally, I would not think the recirculation would cause any off flavors but if your temp is too high for the mash, it could cause a tannin problem. I'm going to brew this weekend and will check my PID temps with my Thermapen and see how close they are. Never gave that a thought at all.

 

[Yambor44]

Dave replied back to my email last night:

Hi Rob,

These problems all seem to be the same thing, the liquid isn't moving through the bag as fast as the pump is running. A BIAB system actually works fairly well without the recirc if you are willing to stir it a few times. No matter how ugly the spray pattern may look, you have got to be able to slow it down some more.

We actually used a coarser cheaper bag for many years. Supported by the basket, they worked well. I can send you one of those. We haven't carried them for a couple of years, so it may take a week or so to get them in. People were very happy with the quality of the Brew Bag, and their feedback prompted us to use those instead, but they are finer.

If you see the temperature jumping around with just water in the system, that might indicate a problem with the probe.

Thanks again,
Dave

Then this was my reply this morning:

Dave,

I apologize I forgot to mention that it was during the heating of the strike water that I noticed this.
I have been using PID type Bbq grills for a long while now and was thinking it might be the probe as well.
Also, I already purchased a 400 micron bag when I had the problem before. Is your older bag more than that?

Do we need to replace the probe?

Thank you.

Rob

I never heard back so I gave him a call just a few minutes ago. He apologized as he thought he replied to my latest email and was sending out a new probe with a return label for the malfunctioning one. I asked him about their old bags and if they were more coarse than 400 micron and he said he didn't believe they were.

So.... when I get the new probe installed I will do another brew and try a super slow recirculation first and if need be a non recirculation batch, although If thats the way to go then IMO there is no need for the pump, hoses and extra camlocks on the hoses. If I need to stir a non recirculating mash I might as well get a cooler style MT & HLT and just use my system to brew. I know a pump is handy to have but not needed if there is always going to be a challenge with recirculating (i.e. can't leave my mash unattended so to speak).

 

[griffi]

Dave replied back to my email last night:

Hi Rob,

These problems all seem to be the same thing, the liquid isn't moving through the bag as fast as the pump is running. A BIAB system actually works fairly well without the recirc if you are willing to stir it a few times. No matter how ugly the spray pattern may look, you have got to be able to slow it down some more.

We actually used a coarser cheaper bag for many years. Supported by the basket, they worked well. I can send you one of those. We haven't carried them for a couple of years, so it may take a week or so to get them in. People were very happy with the quality of the Brew Bag, and their feedback prompted us to use those instead, but they are finer.

If you see the temperature jumping around with just water in the system, that might indicate a problem with the probe.

Thanks again,
Dave

Then this was my reply this morning:

Dave,

I apologize I forgot to mention that it was during the heating of the strike water that I noticed this.
I have been using PID type Bbq grills for a long while now and was thinking it might be the probe as well.
Also, I already purchased a 400 micron bag when I had the problem before. Is your older bag more than that?

Do we need to replace the probe?

Thank you.

Rob

I never heard back so I gave him a call just a few minutes ago. He apologized as he thought he replied to my latest email and was sending out a new probe with a return label for the malfunctioning one. I asked him about their old bags and if they were more coarse than 400 micron and he said he didn't believe they were.

So.... when I get the new probe installed I will do another brew and try a super slow recirculation first and if need be a non recirculation batch, although If thats the way to go then IMO there is no need for the pump, hoses and extra camlocks on the hoses. If I need to stir a non recirculating mash I might as well get a cooler style MT & HLT and just use my system to brew. I know a pump is handy to have but not needed if there is always going to be a challenge with recirculating (i.e. can't leave my mash unattended so to speak).

I’ve been using this system for almost 4 yrs (actually bought it from tmendick above) and it has worked great. I use a chugger pump and I recirc slow using a locline return instead of the lawn sprinkler. I put the locline right at the top of the mash so there’s no splashing. I use a Wilser bag and a brewhardware fb. The weak spot in my system is the cheap temp probe wires. They frequently cause errors. Aside from that I’ve been very pleased with the results.

 

[Yambor44]

Thank you. Could you elaborate about the wires?

Rob

 

[griffi]

The wires have a woven stainless sheath. They’re 5 yrs old or more and have been bent or kinked or whatever. They seem to be the cause of the temp errors I sometimes get. I make sure the wire doesn’t cross itself or touch anything else like the pump power cord, etc. I’m looking for some better temp probe cables but so far haven’t found them.

 

[Yambor44]

Mmmmm. I leave my wire coiled to keep it neat. Should I not do this?

Rob

 

[griffi]

Try straightening it out and see if your temp readouts on the PID stop jumping around

 

[Yambor44]

Try straightening it out and see if your temp readouts on the PID stop jumping around

Will do. I’ll have to wait until tomorrow to check it.

Rob

 

[Yambor44]

Just got it all set up and checked it. Made sure no wires were crossed. Even worse this time if that makes any sense. As soon as I started the readout jumped to 350º+ with a set point of 152ºF.

 

[stevedasleeve]

Hiya all. I’ve used the HG 15 gallon ebiab for three years, dozens of beers, love it but... after about a year the temp probe started reporting spurious readings. Dave sent me a replacement. Last month I started having the same problems. I figure with my Floridian well water I’m getting corrosion somewhere so perhaps replacing the probe and cable every couple of years is part of the cost of using this system. However the probe is $50 and the cable is $30.

Maybe $80 every two years is worth it? Like I said I love this system and have no interest in changing it since my brewday is entirely dialed in so I barely have to think, and clean up is super easy.

Anyone else having issues with their probe after using it for, say, a year?

 

[griffi]

Hiya all. I’ve used the HG 15 gallon ebiab for three years, dozens of beers, love it but... after about a year the temp probe started reporting spurious readings. Dave sent me a replacement. Last month I started having the same problems. I figure with my Floridian well water I’m getting corrosion somewhere so perhaps replacing the probe and cable every couple of years is part of the cost of using this system. However the probe is $50 and the cable is $30.

Maybe $80 every two years is worth it? Like I said I love this system and have no interest in changing it since my brewday is entirely dialed in so I barely have to think, and clean up is super easy.

Anyone else having issues with their probe after using it for, say, a year?

Absolutely! Mine has been wonky for at least a year now... I’m going to look for a good probe and cable

 

[Yambor44]

Dave sent me a new probe and I got it installed and tested yesterday. Everything seems fine now and I went ahead with a brew day.

Only had a partial mash kit so I brewed it.

Target OG according to the kit was 1.050 and I hit 1.049. Everything seemed back to normal and was flawless.

I noticed when I was packaging the old temp probe to send it back there was a definite bend in it. I’m assuming this was probably due to my immersion chiller hitting it at some point. Not bad but noticeable. I wrote a note to Dave that if he found that to be the cause of the malfunction to please call me and I will gladly pay for the replacement he sent me.

I’ll stay in touch on this thread and report my outcome from this beer.

 

[stevedasleeve]

I just ordered replacements, $100 with shipping. If you find a decent weldless probe with cable that’s significantly cheaper I’d be inclined to try it since I have little faith these ones will last. Bit of a bummer since the rest of this system is so great but the probe is vital to its operation.