Hey Spunders, did your beer quality go up after you discoverd spunding?

[BruceH]

I mostly brew lagers. I've only been doing it for 1.5 years and I'm learning all the time.

Temp control was a big leap in beer quality and I feel that spunding is another leap. I've been brewing in a bucket for 3-4 days, then transferring to a keg with spunding valve set to 2.5 volumes of co2 for whatever temp the rest of the fermentation will be.

The results are the best lager beers I've made to date.

Anyone else?

 

[Shwagger]

Do I want to start spunding?

 

[Dgallo]

Quality shouldn’t go up strictly because of spunding, there are many practices to reduce the chances of oxidation. That being said spunding is a great way to naturally carbonate a beer which can have positive effects on mouthfeel and saves in co2

 

[Dland]

Yes, the quality went up. Finer carbonation earlier on in keg than forced carbed, and better tasting because less oxygenated beer later in keg.

 

[Blazinlow86]

No difference noticed. I have always minimized oxidization previously however. Cheers

 

[Bilsch]

Spunding made a huge difference for me especially for the lite lagers I usually brew where even the slightest oxidative damage is plainly obvious. Remember unless you are using 99.99+% pure CO2 to carbonate it's coming with oxygen that will do damage.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

Spunding made a huge difference for me especially for the lite lagers I usually brew where even the slightest oxidative damage is plainly obvious. Remember unless you are using 99.99+% pure CO2 to carbonate it's coming with oxygen that will do damage.

^^This +1.

 

[Shwagger]

Are a lot of people force carbing? I always natural carb with a sugar of some sort. Id dint realize force carbing was so prevalent. Seemed silly to me when waiting a couple of weeks and you have carbonation

 

[brewbama]

I didn’t notice a difference with light lagers or any other beer.

However, I am a production brewer. I don’t keep a keezer full of multiple beers on tap. I drink what I brew fairly quickly one keg after another on a fairly tight brew day to tap schedule.

 

[Jayjay1976]

I'm just getting into kegging and I can't wait to start fermenting under pressure, thanks for the inspirational thread!!

 

[Gnomebrewer]

Are a lot of people force carbing?

92.4% of keggers force carbonate their beer.

Yes, I made up that figure. I'm confident it's the clear majority though.

 

[artichoke]

I've found that spunded lagers take a long time to clear (usually several months), but the reward is that they exhibit a wonderful, fine, and moussey carbonation and foam stand I can't seem to replicate with forced CO2. So I would say the quality of carbonation, mouthfeel and foam stand are the main benefits of spunding, but the trade-off is the time it takes to serve clear beer. This is just my experience using WLP833, Imperial Harvest and 34/70, it's possible other strains clear faster and are better suited to spunding.

Regarding freshness and longevity, I always add SMB to the keg to suck up oxygen when I force carbonate, so I haven't noticed a difference in freshness between my force carbonated and spunded lagers over long periods of time (up to 1 year after kegging).

- AC

 

[Gnomebrewer]

I've found that spunded lagers take a long time to clear (usually several months),

Interesting. Mine clear reasonably fast, but take a bit longer to finish fermenting once they're under pressure. Do you raise the temperature once you start spunding? Could the lack of clearing be from dropping to lagering temperatures with fermentables still remaining (thus, yeast will stay in suspension slowly working away)? I've spunded W34/70, S23 and WY2042 with normal clearing times. Using a traditional lagering schedule (ferment cool, drop to lagering with a few points of gravity left, no diacetyl rest) I've found lagers take a while to clear.

 

[Vale71]

Spunding made a huge difference for me especially for the lite lagers I usually brew where even the slightest oxidative damage is plainly obvious. Remember unless you are using 99.99+% pure CO2 to carbonate it's coming with oxygen that will do damage.

Yeah, as much as 50 ppm if you get the worst quality food-grade CO2, as low as 20 ppm if you get the best. Oh the horror...

 

[artichoke]

Interesting. Mine clear reasonably fast, but take a bit longer to finish fermenting once they're under pressure. Do you raise the temperature once you start spunding? Could the lack of clearing be from dropping to lagering temperatures with fermentables still remaining (thus, yeast will stay in suspension slowly working away)? I've spunded W34/70, S23 and WY2042 with normal clearing times. Using a traditional lagering schedule (ferment cool, drop to lagering with a few points of gravity left, no diacetyl rest) I've found lagers take a while to clear.

I ferment around 10C and then spund at ~3-4C with around 1 plato / 4 points of extract remaining, as determined in advance using a fast ferment test. So I think you're right, at those temperatures the yeast need time to finish the job and drop out and the beer takes longer to clear. Although it's a bit of a drag waiting for the beer to clear, it's fun to sample along the way and experience how the beer changes over time.

 

[brewbama]

I've found that spunded lagers take a long time to clear (usually several months), but the reward is that they exhibit a wonderful, fine, and moussey carbonation and foam stand I can't seem to replicate with forced CO2. So I would say the quality of carbonation, mouthfeel and foam stand are the main benefits of spunding, but the trade-off is the time it takes to serve clear beer. This is just my experience using WLP833, Imperial Harvest and 34/70, it's possible other strains clear faster and are better suited to spunding.

Regarding freshness and longevity, I always add SMB to the keg to suck up oxygen when I force carbonate, so I haven't noticed a difference in freshness between my force carbonated and spunded lagers over long periods of time (up to 1 year after kegging).

- AC

What’s your dosage rate for SMB to the keg?

 

[artichoke]

What’s your dosage rate for SMB to the keg?

Usually 0.3 - 0.4 g SMB into 19L so approximately 15-20 ppm.

 

[Hoppy2bmerry]

Pardon my lack of knowledge here, what is SMB? Thanks.

 

[Shwagger]

Reading up more, I like being able to ensure pressure is set at what I want when carbing naturally after being kegged. Set the valve and let it carb up. Tap, chill, go!

Might have to build a sounding valve. As it stands now, I use charts and such but its not always accurate. And i never force carb

 

[Vale71]

Pardon my lack of knowledge here, what is SMB? Thanks.

Sodium metabisulfite. It's a synonim for "something that has no place in beer".

 

[Mer-man]

Reading up more, I like being able to ensure pressure is set at what I want when carbing naturally after being kegged. Set the valve and let it carb up. Tap, chill, go!

Might have to build a sounding valve. As it stands now, I use charts and such but its not always accurate. And i never force carb

Check out the BlowTie.

I like spunding for longevity of quality and for speed of carbonation.

 

[Robert65]

Check out the BlowTie.

+1

I've built several variable PRV assemblies aka spunding valves using the spring poppet type valves and they are very unreliable and difficult to precisely control, and brass parts will corrode in the presence of the moisture and carbonic acid gassing off. I finally tried the Blow Tie, and assembly with the Kegland K-lok gauge and Duotight fittings was super easy, and the unit is far, far superior. Wish I hadn't wasted time and money on others.

 

[Jayjay1976]

here on planet earth at least, some amount of oxygen is natural in beer.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

Wait, you guys are putting SMB in at kegging? That's a terrible idea! Total sulfur bomb if you're not careful.

But yes, my spunded beers are better: no oxidative damage, better foam, but longer to clear (no gelatin or other finings with low-O2-focused spunding).

 

[Bilsch]

Yeah, as much as 50 ppm if you get the worst quality food-grade CO2, as low as 20 ppm if you get the best. Oh the horror...

Hold on.. let me check your math... yes one seems to be 2.5 times greater than the other.
Maybe you can't taste the difference or care if you did but others can and do. Whether you believe it or not doesn't change the facts. O2 damages beer.

And I don't know where you are getting your information regarding the 'best' grade of CO2. The best, laser grade, has 0 ppm oxygen, research grade has typically 10ppm or less and 15ppm is easy enough to find as well. I just recently purchased a K bottle (420cuft) of 10ppm research grade and the price is roughly similar to buying food and beverage grade in 20lb lots.

 

[brewbama]

[emoji897]

 

[doug293cz]

Hold on.. let me check your math... yes one seems to be 2.5 times greater than the other.
Maybe you can't taste the difference or care if you did but others can and do. Whether you believe it or not doesn't change the facts. O2 damages beer.
View attachment 643948

And I don't know where you are getting your information regarding the 'best' grade of CO2. The best, laser grade, has 0 ppm oxygen, research grade has typically 10ppm or less and 15ppm is easy enough to find as well. I just recently purchased a K bottle (420cuft) of 10ppm research grade and the price is roughly similar to buying in 20lb lots.

Is the chart based on measurements of DO in beer after force carbonation with CO2 with the given O2 content, or based on calculations. If based on calculations, what are the assumptions underpinning the calculations?

Brew on

 

[Jayjay1976]

I prefer my beers with daddy issues. A few ppm of o2 doesn't ruin it for me, rather it puts it in my league so to speak. IMHO, lower your standards a notch and go home with a delicious beer every night. Or go ahead and sit alone in your basement with your charts and tables, lamenting every stray oxygen molecule, the choice is yours.

 

[schematix]

Significant improvement, but it can be challenging. Takes a few tries to get it dialed in. Worth it.

 

[Vale71]

Hold on.. let me check your math... yes one seems to be 2.5 times greater than the other.
Maybe you can't taste the difference or care if you did but others can and do. Whether you believe it or not doesn't change the facts. O2 damages beer.
View attachment 643948

And I don't know where you are getting your information regarding the 'best' grade of CO2. The best, laser grade, has 0 ppm oxygen, research grade has typically 10ppm or less and 15ppm is easy enough to find as well. I just recently purchased a K bottle (420cuft) of 10ppm research grade and the price is roughly similar to buying food and beverage grade in 20lb lots.

I said "best food grade" and you can download the spec sheets from most manufacturers yourself through this thing called "the Internet". But of course you won't because it doesn't fit your scaremongering agenda...

 

[Vale71]

Is the chart based on measurements of DO in beer after force carbonation with CO2 with the given O2 content, or based on calculations. If based on calculations, what are the assumptions underpinning the calculations?

Brew on

The assumption is that all of the O2 will make it into the beer in a short time. This is possibly true when using a quick carbonation method, obviously not true when force carbonating the slow way (a.k.a. set-and-forget method) as solubility of O2 is much lower than that of CO2. But the latter of course is conveniently ignored by the LODO crowd...

Just to get back on topic, IMHO the greatest benefit beer receives when spunding is not from the advantages of naturally occurring CO2 vs. bottled CO2 but simply because it forces the brewer to transfer the beer to a closed vessel before fermentation is completely through instead of letting it sit in a non-airtight container for up to several weeks and then maybe performing an open transfer on top of that. That actually has the potential of exposing your beer to quite a lot of O2.

 

[Vale71]

[emoji897]

I'll have some of that please...

 

[BruceH]

Just to get back on topic, IMHO the greatest benefit beer receives when spunding is not from the advantages of naturally occurring CO2 vs. bottled CO2 but simply because it forces the brewer to transfer the beer to a closed vessel before fermentation is completely through instead of letting it sit in a non-airtight container for up to several weeks and then maybe performing an open transfer on top of that. That actually has the potential of exposing your beer to quite a lot of O2.

I think that reduced oxidation is the biggest benefit I'm getting from spunding. I am doing an open transfer into a purged keg when fermentation is partially complete, prior to this everything was bottled.

The spunded beer tastes smoother and the carbonation is finer than my bottled beer. My palate isn't refined (or educated) enough to discern all the things that are making it taste better. I would guess that besides reduced oxidation there is something to do with flavors from the yeast when fermented under pressure.

 

[Vale71]

If you're doing an open transfer then you are missing out on some of the benefits of spunding as your beer will still pick up some oxygen, but that's obviously unavoidable unless you get some sort of FV that allows transfer under pressure or even better a unitank.

Under pressure flavor contributions from yeast metabolism are actually reduced but that's not really an issue unless you transfer with more than 50% to go. If you only have a few points to go then the beer character has already been defined and it won't make any discernible difference.

 

[BruceH]

If you're doing an open transfer then you are missing out on some of the benefits of spunding as your beer will still pick up some oxygen, but that's obviously unavoidable unless you get some sort of FV that allows transfer under pressure or even better a unitank.

Under pressure flavor contributions from yeast metabolism are actually reduced but that's not really an issue unless you transfer with more than 50% to go. If you only have a few points to go then the beer character has already been defined and it won't make any discernible difference.

Yes, I understand. After transfer I "purge" accumulated fermentation co2 via the pressure relief valve a few times in the hopes of releasing any transfer captured o2 in the headspace.

As time goes on I'll upgrade equipment but it's a slow process, the same can be said for my learning about brewing. The recent improvements for me have been getting an old fridge and inkbird for a fermention chamber, kegging with spunding, and water analysis with chemical additions.

The recent changes have been light years of progress vs how I was making beer and I'm sure there are many things left to improve on.

 

[Bilsch]

Is the chart based on measurements of DO in beer after force carbonation with CO2 with the given O2 content, or based on calculations. If based on calculations, what are the assumptions underpinning the calculations?

It is based off calculations using the known quantity of oxygen in a given volume of carbon dioxide. The assumption, well fact actually, is if you know how much oxygen is going into a sealed container (the keg) then one can be reasonably certain how much is in there.

Measuring oxygen in beer is quite difficult since it has a habit of quickly disappearing.

 

[Vale71]

Measuring oxygen in beer is quite difficult since it has a habit of quickly disappearing.

I though that it was because the equipment is super-expensive and none of you guys can certainly afford it. I know for sure that you can measure oxygen in beer for months after packaging so I'm not sure what qualifies as "quickly" for you.

As for your snide comment that if you know how much oxygen goes into a container then you know how much oxygen will be in the container, with your table you claim to know how much oxygen will actually be in the beer and that's a completely different thing, so try again maybe...

 

[lump42]

I only spund when I've got a beer that's finished but no space left in the kegarator or when I know I'm running low on CO2 (I'm cheap and lazy). I haven't noticed any difference at all between a full force carbed beer and spunded. If we're comparing 'burst' carbonated then there's a difference.

I've also started running the blowoff tubes to kegs to push sanitizer out and purge them. Again saves on co2, since it isn't cheap where I live.

 

[Bilsch]

The assumption is that all of the O2 will make it into the beer in a short time. This is possibly true when using a quick carbonation method, obviously not true when force carbonating the slow way (a.k.a. set-and-forget method) as solubility of O2 is much lower than that of CO2. But the latter of course is conveniently ignored by the LODO crowd.

It’s interesting that you think the oxygen will sit quietly in the keg headspace because of the low solubility in the liquid. The fact is the oxygen in solution is constantly reacting with the antioxidants in the beer.. namely your fresh malt flavors and hop aromas. This process is known as staling. As the oxygen in solution is quickly being depleted by said antioxidants, the remaining O2 in the headspace is quietly going into solution until all the oxygen in the keg is gone. Along with your freshness!

Because of the laws of physics and chemistry it does not matter how the oxygen gets into the keg, it’s all going into the beer. This is proven, settled long ago, brewing science.

I’m sorry you see this as fear mongering. It’s just science and nothing to be afraid of.

 

[Bilsch]

As for your snide comment that if you know how much oxygen goes into a container then you know how much oxygen will be in the container, with your table you claim to know how much oxygen will actually be in the beer and that's a completely different thing, so try again maybe...

Instead of arguing your intuition with me, it probably would be wise to do a search on the mechanisms of beer staling. You will find literally dozens of papers on the subject over many years. Therein you will learn what happens when oxygen comes into contact with beer.