HERMS Sparge Recommendations - Speed > Efficiency

[Douglefish]

Alright, so i have a 3 vessel HERMS system with the HERMS coil in the HLT. I don't get to brew as much as I would like and it seems that brew day length is getting shorter and shorter. I've read a little about no sparge and biab. I don't want to go that route since I like my system as is, but I do want to speed up the brew day, and I was looking for recommendations on how to sparge. Any thoughts would be appreciated, but I'm willing to give up efficiency to gain speed to some degree. It would be awesome to keep it at about 70%?

Options I thought of
1) Batch Sparge - what would HERMS batch sparging be like and how long would I have to recirc to regain my clarity?
2) Would there be any way to do a No Sparge? I can't fit my entire wort volume in my MLT
3) Some kind of Hybird?

 

[Yooper]

I sometimes do a batch sparge in my HERMS system. It works great!

I drain the MLT, and add half of the sparge water. Then recirculate for a few seconds, drain. Add the second half, recirculate a bit, and then drain. It's much faster than a 45 minute fly sparge!

 

[Douglefish]

I sometimes do a batch sparge in my HERMS system. It works great!

I drain the MLT, and add half of the sparge water. Then recirculate for a few seconds, drain. Add the second half, recirculate a bit, and then drain. It's much faster than a 45 minute fly sparge!

What kind of efficiency do you get with this process?
Do you stir in between additions? I'm assuming you are using 168 F water?

 

[wuertele]

I have a single tier three vessel RIMS and I am toying with an idea that I think will significantly speed up my brew day. I call it "BK as Grant Recirculating Thin Mash" (but I hope I can find a better name for it).

The idea is basically to do a "no-sparge" mash, but crazy-recirculated. I would do it like this: put my normal strike water into my mash tun, put my normal sparge water into my boil kettle (about the same amount into each). Heat MT to strike temp and BK to infusion temp. Dough in my grains into the MT, mixing in A LOT of rice hulls in order to support a fast flow with minimum suction (to prevent stuck mash). Start pumping from the MT to the BK, and pump from the BK into the MT. Circulate like this for the whole rest at the maximum flow rate I can sustain. Once the mash is complete, stop pumping from the BK to the MT, and wait for the BK to fill to the desired volume.

The purpose of the rice hulls would be to enable fast recirculation without sucking the grist down into a tight cake.

The fast recirculation would serve two purposes:

1. avoid the need to stir the mash, since the fluid flow should be fast enough to get grains in contact with a lot of wort

2. speed up the lauter stage

The BK-as-large-grant would serve four purposes:

1. for a given mash tun size, allow bigger beers to be mashed in no-sparge mode

2. at the end of the final rest, half the wort is already in the BK, which reduces the lautering time

3. since a large volume of wort continually passes through the BK, a propane burner can be used to achieve fast temperature steps with much lower risk of scorching. Also, heating for the boil can be started the moment the final rest is completed.

4. since all the water is always in the MT and the BK, there is no need for an HLT.

I think that this system would achieve the fastest possible mash/lauter, while allowing fast temperature steps, and very thin mashes. It is also very simple, because once it is running the only manual work to change from mashing to lautering is to turn off the BK->MT pump.

 

[Douglefish]

So is the main difference between what you are suggesting and the Brutus 20 simply the ability to heat the wort in BK to make steps quicker?

 

[wuertele]

What is the definition of "Brutus 20"?

If the Brutus 20 is designed to continuously recirculate mash wort between the MLT and the BK using the entire recipe water, then the answer would be "yes".

But I thought that the Brutus 20 was designed to use an HLT to store sparge water. There is no need for an HLT in my suggestion.

 

[Bigscience]

I sometimes do a batch sparge in my HERMS system. It works great!

I drain the MLT, and add half of the sparge water. Then recirculate for a few seconds, drain. Add the second half, recirculate a bit, and then drain. It's much faster than a 45 minute fly sparge!

+1 on this. My only tweaks are to recirculate for 10 minutes for each batch and to calculate sparge water at the time I use it. eg More or less based on first runnings and try to keep the 2 batches equal.

With normal beers <1.060, I consistently get 82-83% extraction with a half hour mash. Bigger beers dip down to about 78%. I think the key is that the constant recirculation really helps out.

For speed sake I'm thinking about going to a one batch sparge with no mashout, just add the enough to get half the runnings to the mash. I'm trying to get fast enough to brew on a school night.

 

[Yooper]

What kind of efficiency do you get with this process?
Do you stir in between additions? I'm assuming you are using 168 F water?

No, I don't use 168 degree water- the sparge water is much hotter because it's in lieu of a mash-out. I want the grain bed to go to 168, so often the first batch sparge water is 198-200 degrees, depending on the size of the grainbed and the current temperature. The second batch sparge uses 170 degree water, as the grain bed is then at 168 when the second round of sparge water is added.

The efficiency is usually 72% or so with that method.

 

[Douglefish]

Big science and yooper, do you guys stir for yor batch sparring or do you rely on the recirculation.

Also, bigscience are you saying that you are getting 82% to the kettle, or is that your conversion efficiency? With only a 30 min mash that's amazing.

 

[jkarp]

What is the definition of "Brutus 20"?

If the Brutus 20 is designed to continuously recirculate mash wort between the MLT and the BK using the entire recipe water, then the answer would be "yes".

But I thought that the Brutus 20 was designed to use an HLT to store sparge water. There is no need for an HLT in my suggestion.

Brutus 20 is a two-vessel recirculating system.

 

[Bigscience]

Big science and yooper, do you guys stir for yor batch sparring or do you rely on the recirculation.

Also, bigscience are you saying that you are getting 82% to the kettle, or is that your conversion efficiency? With only a 30 min mash that's amazing.

I stir after batch additions and then recirculate for 10 minutes per addition.

I get 82% into the kettle with a 1.5qt/lb ratio (thinner helps out). It's not that I think efficiency is like a wiener measuring contest. I just want to be able to design a brew and hit my numbers. I should also point out that with a mashout and 2x10 minute recircs, it's more like an hour. I am toying with the idea of a no mashout, single batch sparge to speed things up even more.

Here is what I find key to consistent extraction numbers:

-Measure your mash water and each sparge addition. I have sight gauges on each vessel. After I collect the first runnings, I subtract from the boil volume and divide the remaining volume in two. For the last addition, I only add what I need to get the volume. The grain should be saturated and not hold back anymore liquid.

-Pump to the kettle a little slower so you can fully empty the MTL. You don't want anything left in there and you want to give it time to perk down through the grains. Anything left will be diluted out with the next addition.

-I saw a jump in efficiency when I went from a manifold to a false bottom. I have a dip tube that is only 1/4 inch off the bottom of the middle of the keg. This lets me get all the goodness out.

-For the final batch sparge, you ideally want to hit your kettle volume and then have nothing else left in the MLT.

All in all, I really think the constant recirculation helps with a fast conversion and a higher extraction efficiency.

 

[awarner322]

Place holder. Thanks for the info