Help with WLP005

[Zabuza]

So I'm having trouble with the titular yeast, British Ale. The last batch I made with this yeast was 1.064 OG but only got down to 1.023 instead of 1.019. It was a good beer, though, so I just relaxed and drank it (still, it was a disappointment). I washed that yeast and am using it again, now with a batch that is 1.067 OG, again expected to end around 1.019 - fermentation slowed to about a bubble every 30 seconds or so around 1.032, so I added some yeast energizer and a quarter pound of honey yesterday to get it going again. It took off, but has since slowed down to a bubble every 20 seconds or so, with the SG currently at 1.026.

What do I need to do here? This damn beer better get beneath 1.020, but I'm thinking it isn't going to unless I can help it along somehow. Suggestions?

 

[BrewerinBR]

How long and what temp did/are you fermenting at?
At 68F this yeast will go fast but lower than 65 will slow it down, makes a cleaner beer but will take longer.

 

[Zabuza]

How long and what temp did/are you fermenting at?
At 68F this yeast will go fast but lower than 65 will slow it down, makes a cleaner beer but will take longer.

I made it Thursday, activity started on Friday. Moved to the bedroom to keep cool, about 64F. Saturday evening it had slowed down to one bubble every 30 seconds or so, figured I'd do something about it in the morning. Sunday morning I pitched the honey/energizer combo and moved out to the main room where it is 72F. Gradually warmed up and picked up through the day, was 69ish when I went to bed. Woke up today and it was 72F and slow (20sec) in the airlock.

 

[RmikeVT]

Did you make a yeast starter?
All Grain or Extract?
What is your recipe?

 

[BrewerinBR]

64F is a good temp, I would say that letting it go may be the thing to do. I use WLP005 for a porter and leave it for 35 days before testing. Goes from ~1.060 to ~ 1.018 at about 64F. Now depending on how much non fermentables in the recipe giving it time may be the best. So the next thing is to look at the recipe....

 

[Zabuza]

Did you make a yeast starter?
All Grain or Extract?
What is your recipe?

No. Direct pitch (yeah, I know, probably would have helped to do a starter, but I don't think that explains its wanting to conk out at 1.030).
Partial, but like 85% grain.
Here you go:

Zach's New Zealand ESB

Grains & Adjuncts
Amount Percentage Name Time Gravity
6.00 lbs 42.86 % Pale Malt (2 Row) US 60 mins 1.036
3.00 lbs 21.43 % Fawcett Maris Otter Pale Malt 60 mins 1.038
2.00 lbs 14.29 % Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L 60 mins 1.034
1.00 lbs 7.14 % Rye Malt 60 mins 1.029
2.00 lbs 14.29 % Pale Liquid Extract 60 mins 1.036

Hops
Amount IBU's Name Time AA %
1.00 ozs 18.03 Northern Brewer 45 mins 9.40
1.00 ozs 11.89 Motueka 30 mins 7.40
1.00 ozs 15.56 Pacific Gem 15 mins 15.00

It's supposed to basically be an ESB in spirit with New Zealand hops and a touch of rye for crispness.

 

[BrewerinBR]

Looks like your not going to have a ton of non fermentable sugar with that grain bill. I would say direct pitch of a single vial of WLP005 was not enough yeast. A starter is called for when over 1.050 and for sure over 1.060 or multiple vials to direct pitch. I would say you have a stuck fermentation and pitching more yeast may help.

 

[Zabuza]

Looks like your not going to have a ton of non fermentable sugar with that grain bill. I would say direct pitch of a single vial of WLP005 was not enough yeast. A starter is called for when over 1.050 and for sure over 1.060 or multiple vials to direct pitch. I would say you have a stuck fermentation and pitching more yeast may help.

Not sure why you would say that. The only semi non fermentable grain was the caramel, and people have shown that 60L caramel is only a little less fermentable than 2-row. Rye's fermentable, Maris otter is fermentable, caramel malt is slightly less fermentable, two row is fermentable, two pounds of extract are fermentable...

Also, I'm surprised at the yeast pitching rates you have suggested. I always knew starters were better, but white labs says that one vial is sufficient for five gallons of wort up to 1.070 - as a business, it doesn't make sense that they would claim this if it was all the way down at 1.050 b/c then they could sell more tubes easier. Again, I knew they were helpful, but I guess you're saying they're essential.

 

[RmikeVT]

Looks like your not going to have a ton of non fermentable sugar with that grain bill. I would say direct pitch of a single vial of WLP005 was not enough yeast. A starter is called for when over 1.050 and for sure over 1.060 or multiple vials to direct pitch. I would say you have a stuck fermentation and pitching more yeast may help.

BrewerinRB is saying you do in fact have very fermentable wort, so this would lead him to the conclusion that you underpitched.

Maybe pitch some more yeast -- pick up a pack of S-04 or S-05 and dump it in. Don't have experience with stuck fermentation so Im not sure what to tell you.

Next time make a 1.5L starter (I make starters in clear growlers I pick up at the homebrew shop for $3). I shoot for 1.037 and toss in a pinch of yeast energizer.

 

[Zabuza]

Looks like your not going to have a ton of non fermentable sugar with that grain bill.

BrewerinRB is saying you do in fact have very fermentable wort, so this would lead him to the conclusion that you underpitched.

I am epically confused...I mean, I get that I under pitched. I'll make starters in the future. But how on earth does not having a lot of fermentable sugars entail than I'm going to have a very fermentable wort??? Furthermore, how do I not have many fermentable sugars when everything is highly fermentable other than the caramel 60L???

 

[BrewerinBR]

I am epically confused...I mean, I get that I under pitched. I'll make starters in the future. But how on earth does not having a lot of fermentable sugars entail than I'm going to have a very fermentable wort??? Furthermore, how do I not have many fermentable sugars when everything is highly fermentable other than the caramel 60L???

I am saying you have a lot fermentable sugars and very little Nonfermentable sugars. If your grain bill had a lot adjuncts or darker malts you can get a lot dextrins or (nonfermentable sugar) into the wort so your FG will be higher.
In this case you DO NOT so my conclusion is your fermentation is stuck due to underpitching. Get another vial of WLP005 make a starter and pitch or as previously stated get some US-05 or US-04 and pour that in.

 

[bierhaus15]

So the yeast you are using was 'washed' from a previous batch?

If that is the case, there are a number of issues that could be to blame for the poor attenuation. First, if the first batch you made was under pitched, and it seems like that was the case, the yeast you'll harvested probably wasn't in the best shape to begin with. That will certainly affect the fermentation on the re-pitch. Moreover, you may have harvested the least attenuative yeast from washing. Also, keep in mind wlp005 is one yeast that needs, more than anything, a large pitch rate and high oxygenation... and temperature control. Regardless of what was in your beer, underpitching and unhealthy or stressed yeast will result in poor attenuation and/or flocculation. Lastly, your recipe has 15% crystal and 15% dme. That actually is a fair amount of non-fermentables and given the health of your yeast, a 1.030 fg isn't surprising.

 

[Zabuza]

I am saying you have a lot fermentable sugars and very little Nonfermentable sugars. If your grain bill had a lot adjuncts or darker malts you can get a lot dextrins or (nonfermentable sugar) into the wort so your FG will be higher.
In this case you DO NOT so my conclusion is your fermentation is stuck due to underpitching. Get another vial of WLP005 make a starter and pitch or as previously stated get some US-05 or US-04 and pour that in.

So the yeast you are using was 'washed' from a previous batch?

If that is the case, there are a number of issues that could be to blame for the poor attenuation. First, if the first batch you made was under pitched, and it seems like that was the case, the yeast you'll harvested probably wasn't in the best shape to begin with. That will certainly affect the fermentation on the re-pitch. Moreover, you may have harvested the least attenuative yeast from washing. Also, keep in mind wlp005 is one yeast that needs, more than anything, a large pitch rate and high oxygenation... and temperature control. Regardless of what was in your beer, underpitching and unhealthy or stressed yeast will result in poor attenuation and/or flocculation. Lastly, your recipe has 15% crystal and 15% dme. That actually is a fair amount of non-fermentables and given the health of your yeast, a 1.030 fg isn't surprising.

BewerinBR - I totally missed the second negation. As you can see, I thought you were saying it was not the case that my wort had a lot of fermentable sugar, when in fact it you said it is not the case that it doesn't have a lot of fermentable sugar. Sorry about that - man, I was confused for a second. I think you're right about under-pitching, so I'm going to be far more diligent about that in the future.

bierhaus15 - the fermentability of 60L crystal has been demonstrated in numerous threads to be only slightly less than that of regular 'ol two row. Sure, extract ain't as fermentable either, but again, only slightly. I'm not expecting an FG less than 1.010 here, just something in the teens. I think a couple pounds of each might preclude the former (especially with a 71% attenuation rate like WLP005), but not the latter. As is by now obvious, I was hoping I could get the yeast to over attenuate via staggered additions of nutrient and highly fermentable sugar (dextrose/sucrose/glucose). It was why this strategy was not working, and indeed, failing miserably, that caused me to make this thread.

I definitely think you've hit the nail on the head with the washed yeast. It didn't attenuate the previous batch very well (off by three FG points), and I thought I could make up for it with staggered additions of nutrient and highly fermentable sugar, extreme oxygenation, and stable temps, but it was underpitched and already tired from the last batch. I've learned my lesson here; I'm going to use my two liter flask to make starters for every batch from here on out (unless it's a really low OG beer).

Thanks, guys!

 

[RmikeVT]

I am epically confused...I mean, I get that I under pitched. I'll make starters in the future. But how on earth does not having a lot of fermentable sugars entail than I'm going to have a very fermentable wort??? Furthermore, how do I not have many fermentable sugars when everything is highly fermentable other than the caramel 60L???

I think you are misreading BrewinRB's post. He says, "Looks like your not going to have a ton of non fermentable sugar with that grain bill." I don't know if that classifies as a double negative but its the same as saying, "Looks like you have plenty of fermentables, so you must have underpitched."

 

[Zabuza]

Thanks RmikeVT, but I realized that in my last post. Definitely missed that second negation (non fermentables).

 

[RmikeVT]

What have you decided what to do? Pitch more yeast?

 

[Zabuza]

Taking a hydrometer sample in a few, that's going to settle it. If it isn't at least in the low twenties, I'm repitching. Should I make a starter for the repitching yeast, or just toss it in there (it was washed like a week ago, so it's pretty fresh)?

There's no time constraint on repitching, right? Primary could be going or could have just ended and I could repitch equally effectively (or close enough), correct? Now that I'm saying this to myself, I might wanna do it sooner than later...

 

[RmikeVT]

I have no clue what you should do, but I'm interested to see how this works out for when I get the inevitable stuck fermentation.