Help with watery flavorless beer

[mmmbeeer]

Hi all, just wanted to see if I could get some advice improving my beers. I've been AG brewing for a few years and have done about a dozen or more batches. My final product is OK but far from great, consistently on the watery, dry side and generally lacking in flavor and body. Most of my brews are lower gravity (1.040 - 60), but still seem to lack flavor for the given style. Also noticed my beer generally has a nice creamy head at first, but as the keg goes down the beer flattens out with little or no head.

My process starts with crushing the grain on brew day (barley crusher, factory setting), mashing in with DI water with minerals and acid adjusted using Bru'n Water spreadsheet, 60-75 min mash in rectangular cooler with bazooka screen, no mash out, batch sparge with vorlauf before 1st and 2nd runnings, 60 min boil after hot break, rapid chill through CC and plate chillers into conical fermenter, oxygenate with pure O2 for 1 min, pitch yeast starter, ferment in temperature controlled upright freezer, usually primary for 1-3 weeks, no secondary but dump most of yeast after primary complete, transfer to keg purged with CO2, force carbonate, drink.

I use beersmith and generally hit my target volumes, gravities, mash pH, and temps. Use a refractometer (have both analog and digital and double check measurements), digital pH meter, and digital thermometer, and regularly recalibrate all.

A couple of thoughts I have:

1. I usually err on the side of a slightly larger yeast starter according to Mr Malty. Begin about 3 days prior, let my starters fully ferment, chill, then decant off and pitch on brew day. Could I be overpitching and therefore over attenuating?

2. I use whirlfloc tablets which supposedly bind proteins - any correlation with flat beer with poor head retention?

3. My thermometer is a cheap $15 one from NB. I calibrate it with an ice bath but is it really accurate? Thought about buying a lab grade one for better accuracy on mash temps.

Sorry for the long post, but I figured you would need the info to understand what might be going wrong. Any additional thoughts or insights would be greatly appreciated. Here's a copy of my last brew, an Irish red kit from NB.

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 7.23 gal
Post Boil Volume: 5.98 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 5.00 gal
Bottling Volume: 4.75 gal
Estimated OG: 1.044 SG
Estimated Color: 9.9 SRM
Estimated IBU: 26.2 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 80.5 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
7 lbs 8.0 oz Pale Malt (2 Row) US (1.7 SRM) Grain 1 85.7 %
12.0 oz Belgian Cara 8/Caramel Pils (8.0 SRM) Grain 2 8.6 %
4.0 oz Special Roast (Briess) (50.0 SRM) Grain 3 2.9 %
2.0 oz Biscuit Malt (28.0 SRM) Grain 4 1.4 %
2.0 oz Chocolate Malt (450.0 SRM) Grain 5 1.4 %
0.75 oz Williamette [5.30 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 6 15.0 IBUs
0.75 oz Goldings, US [5.20 %] - Boil 30.0 min Hop 7 11.3 IBUs
0.50 tsp Wyeast Yeast Nutrient (Boil 10.0 mins) Other 8 -
1.00 Items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 5.0 mins) Fining 9 -
1.0 pkg American Ale II (Wyeast Labs #1272) [125 Yeast 10 -


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Medium Body, Batch Sparge
Total Grain Weight: 8 lbs 12.0 oz
----------------------------
Name Description Step Temperat Step Time
Mash In Add 17.12 qt of water at 165.9 F 154.0 F 60 min

Sparge: Batch sparge with 2 steps (Drain mash tun , 4.03gal) of 168.0 F water

Notes:
------
MASH:
4.25 gal DI water, 2.4 gm CaCl2, 1.1 gm CaSO4, 5.0 ml 10% phosphoric acid, mash pH = 5.38

SPARGE:
4.0 gal DI water, 2.2 gm CaCl2, 1.0 gm CaSO4

VOLUMES/GRAVITY:
Pre-boil: 7.5 gal, 9.2 brix, 1.036
Post-boil: 5.75 gal, 11.2 brix, 1.045
Fermenter: 5.0 gal, 11.8 brix, 1.047

FERMENTATION:
Day 5: SG = 6.0 brix, 1.011
Day 6: SG = 6.0 brix, 1.011
Day 7: 12 oz yeast dump
Day 10 6 oz yeast dump
Day 13: 4 oz yeast dump
Day 15: 5 oz yeast dump
Day 19: 6 oz yeast dump, cold crash to 34 F
Day 20: 8 oz yeast dump
Day 21: Keg

Created with BeerSmith 2 - http://www.beersmith.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[Dynachrome]

Live on the edge and try a batch without the whirlfloc.

....also, Google up "First wort hops". It seems to make a difference with my head retention - read some on your own though.

The recipe sounds tasty.

...also read the threads appearing at the bottom of the page - you titled your thread well and the results at the bottom relate.

 

[C-Rider]

Hi all, just wanted to see if I could get some advice improving my beers. I've been AG brewing for a few years and have done about a dozen or more batches. My final product is OK but far from great, consistently on the watery, dry side and generally lacking in flavor and body. Most of my brews are lower gravity (1.040 - 60), but still seem to lack flavor for the given style. Also noticed my beer generally has a nice creamy head at first, but as the keg goes down the beer flattens out with little or no head.

My process starts with crushing the grain on brew day (barley crusher, factory setting), mashing in with DI water with minerals and acid adjusted using Bru'n Water spreadsheet, 60-75 min mash in rectangular cooler with bazooka screen, no mash out, batch sparge with vorlauf before 1st and 2nd runnings, 60 min boil after hot break, rapid chill through CC and plate chillers into conical fermenter, oxygenate with pure O2 for 1 min, pitch yeast starter, ferment in temperature controlled upright freezer, usually primary for 1-3 weeks, no secondary but dump most of yeast after primary complete, transfer to keg purged with CO2, force carbonate, drink.

I use beersmith and generally hit my target volumes, gravities, mash pH, and temps. Use a refractometer (have both analog and digital and double check measurements), digital pH meter, and digital thermometer, and regularly recalibrate all.

A couple of thoughts I have:

1. I usually err on the side of a slightly larger yeast starter according to Mr Malty. Begin about 3 days prior, let my starters fully ferment, chill, then decant off and pitch on brew day. Could I be overpitching and therefore over attenuating?

2. I use whirlfloc tablets which supposedly bind proteins - any correlation with flat beer with poor head retention?

3. My thermometer is a cheap $15 one from NB. I calibrate it with an ice bath but is it really accurate? Thought about buying a lab grade one for better accuracy on mash temps.

Sorry for the long post, but I figured you would need the info to understand what might be going wrong. Any additional thoughts or insights would be greatly appreciated. Here's a copy of my last brew, an Irish red kit from NB.

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 7.23 gal
Post Boil Volume: 5.98 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 5.00 gal
Bottling Volume: 4.75 gal
Estimated OG: 1.044 SG
Estimated Color: 9.9 SRM
Estimated IBU: 26.2 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 80.5 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
7 lbs 8.0 oz Pale Malt (2 Row) US (1.7 SRM) Grain 1 85.7 %
12.0 oz Belgian Cara 8/Caramel Pils (8.0 SRM) Grain 2 8.6 %
4.0 oz Special Roast (Briess) (50.0 SRM) Grain 3 2.9 %
2.0 oz Biscuit Malt (28.0 SRM) Grain 4 1.4 %
2.0 oz Chocolate Malt (450.0 SRM) Grain 5 1.4 %
0.75 oz Williamette [5.30 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 6 15.0 IBUs
0.75 oz Goldings, US [5.20 %] - Boil 30.0 min Hop 7 11.3 IBUs
0.50 tsp Wyeast Yeast Nutrient (Boil 10.0 mins) Other 8 -
1.00 Items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 5.0 mins) Fining 9 -
1.0 pkg American Ale II (Wyeast Labs #1272) [125 Yeast 10 -


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Medium Body, Batch Sparge
Total Grain Weight: 8 lbs 12.0 oz
----------------------------
Name Description Step Temperat Step Time
Mash In Add 17.12 qt of water at 165.9 F 154.0 F 60 min

Sparge: Batch sparge with 2 steps (Drain mash tun , 4.03gal) of 168.0 F water

Notes:
------
MASH:
4.25 gal DI water, 2.4 gm CaCl2, 1.1 gm CaSO4, 5.0 ml 10% phosphoric acid, mash pH = 5.38

SPARGE:
4.0 gal DI water, 2.2 gm CaCl2, 1.0 gm CaSO4

VOLUMES/GRAVITY:
Pre-boil: 7.5 gal, 9.2 brix, 1.036
Post-boil: 5.75 gal, 11.2 brix, 1.045
Fermenter: 5.0 gal, 11.8 brix, 1.047

FERMENTATION:
Day 5: SG = 6.0 brix, 1.011
Day 6: SG = 6.0 brix, 1.011
Day 7: 12 oz yeast dump
Day 10 6 oz yeast dump
Day 13: 4 oz yeast dump
Day 15: 5 oz yeast dump
Day 19: 6 oz yeast dump, cold crash to 34 F
Day 20: 8 oz yeast dump
Day 21: Keg

Created with BeerSmith 2 - http://www.beersmith.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Don't understand all the yeast dumping. My brews sit on the yeast for 3-4 weeks before I bottle. U must have a conical fermenter but still....?

 

[Facinerous]

I don't really see where you would be lacking flavor/body from your recipe and notes. Fantastic notes btw.

With a fg of 1.011 it seems you are well within what an Irish red should be. As far as over pitching is concerned you could do an experiment. Try splitting a 5 gal batch into two carboys. Pitch as you would normally in one and pitch as the yeast manufacturer recommends in the other. I guess I don't have a direct answer for you.

 

[Teromous]

When you are making mineral additions to your deionized water, are you allowing it to rest for a period of time to absorb the minerals?

 

[RM-MN]

Get a decent thermometer. Mashing 3 or 4 degrees too low will always get you a thinner beer. Using a single data point for calibrating your thermometer isn't good enough, even using ice water/boiling water only gives you 2 points and you need to be accurate somewhere in the middle.

I bought a digital thermometer that was supposed to be accurate withing one degree, and it was at room temp but by mashing temp it read 3 degrees higher than my other thermometer and at boiling it showed 219, obviously wrong. Had I used that thermometer I would have mashed 3 degrees below what I expected, enough to make my beer thinner.

 

[mmmbeeer]

Thanks for everyone's prompt replies.

Yes, next time I will "live on the edge" and try ditching the whirlfloc.

As far as dumping yeast, that's something I did differently with my last batch. Sort of a pseudo secondary in my conical by dumping the yeast out after primary. Some of the yeast clings to the sides after you dump then slowly fills back in at the bottom of the conical. So you have to dump a small amount over a few days to remove most of it.

I'm going to focus on yeast preparation - stay true to Mr Malty, and maybe try pitching it at high krausen instead of what I'm doing now.

And also find a lab grade digital thermometer.

Would love to hear any other ideas. Thx.

 

[mmmbeeer]

Sorry forgot to respond to teromous. Yes, I fully dissolve my mineral additions in my strike/sparge water before heating it. I use mostly CaSO4 and CaCl2 and sometimes MgSO4, all of which are readily soluble in water.

 

[judsonp]

I'd test your thermometer in boiling water as well as ice water. Good cheap thermometers can be pretty accurate. If you want to replace it, Thermoworks makes a lot of high-accuracy, affordable thermometers (like the popular Thermapen).

 

[fearwig]

Overpitch doesn't always equal overattenuation (they aren't one-to-one anyway, sometimes underpitch can cause overattenuation too), but just about everyone agrees it leads to less flavor, even when yeast character is not central to your style.

You should be able to tell if your FGs are too low, but if they are on target and there's just something "missing", pitch less.

 

[B-Hoppy]

More malt will help get rid of that 'watery' thing & more hops will balance the added malt and really help head retention! I don't like complicated things~

 

[dlester]

mmmbeeer, I read a lot of questions and comments about your post. However, nothing mentioned about your original gravity. In my experience, low gravity beers have less unfermentable sugars and therefore less malty taste. In addition to the low OG, is possible over attenuation. That can be caused by either low mash temps of 145° to 150°F and/or too much volume of yeast.

In my opinion, the combination of a low OG and high volume of yeast would be a good place to start with your concern. For low OG beers, your probably fine with one tube/smack pack of yeast. You don't want to over do it on the yeast volume. Although I would say check the Mr. Malty calculator. My experience has directed me towards my previous advice.


Cheers and try it again, beers are not always the best first time around,

 

[kombat]

I blame the thermometer. I'll bet you're mashing a good 3-4 degrees lower than you think you are, and that's why your beers are coming out dry and watery.

 

[mmmbeeer]

fearwig, b-hoppy, dlester - thx for the insight, you're helping me realize my issues are likely a combination of lower OG, some overpitching, and perhaps also my mash temps being on the low side. I've taken judsonp's advice and ordered a thermopen for my next brew day. I'm thinking maybe a big IPA around 1.070.

 

[BreezyBrew]

I blame the thermometer. I'll bet you're mashing a good 3-4 degrees lower than you think you are, and that's why your beers are coming out dry and watery.

I think this as well as you may be over pitching some. It's definitely possible to over pitch, as I was doing it. My beers were watery and had low malt characteristic. I started using Great Western two row, pitching properly, and using 1968 yeast and the beers improved significantly.

 

[B-Hoppy]

By your numbers, it looks like your attenuation is around 76% which is right where it should be for that yeast: http://www.wyeastlab.com/rw_yeaststrain_detail.cfm?ID=11. I'd say save the $$ on the thermometer and just switch to a less attenuative yeast which will give you a little more mouth-feel. Something like: http://www.wyeastlab.com/rw_yeaststrain_detail.cfm?ID=139 might be an option. There's lots of ways to skin a cat, just an idea.

 

[fearwig]

The mechanism is mysterious to me but supposedly the "watery" quality to overpitched beers is not an issue of FG, or not FG alone at least. Maybe it's a matter of what parts of the wort overpitched yeast consume more of to get to that FG, or maybe it's a matter of something subtle but necessary they fail to produce when they miss out on the reproductive phase (I suspect the latter). Either way, I've had very low FG beers that were not whatsoever watery, and yeast character often made the difference: a good saison may be under 1.000 but not watery in the least. Dry and watery are very different to me.

 

[mmmbeeer]

More good ideas. Will try a less attenuative yeast to see, but like fearwig says I wonder if there are other unknown factors at hand besides FG and attenuation.

BreezyBrew, what were you using before Great Western? I typically use Rahr for my 2-row since that's what NB sells. I believe they carry Briess as well.

 

[BreezyBrew]

More good ideas. Will try a less attenuative yeast to see, but like fearwig says I wonder if there are other unknown factors at hand besides FG and attenuation.

BreezyBrew, what were you using before Great Western? I typically use Rahr for my 2-row since that's what NB sells. I believe they carry Briess as well.

For me GW>Rahr>Briess. I should mention I got the GW tip from Denny. I've never really made a beer that had Briess in it that I liked. If I'm really trying to make a malty beer, I'll use Maris Otter. Wonderful nutty sweetness in that malt.

 

[Croyzen]

Have you been playing water mad scientist with all your brews? What about using some of your city's finest simply filtered to get out any off flavors and sediment and then treated for chlorine/chloramine if needed with some campden?

Your process looks pretty good. I like to do simple things to see if it makes a difference. If it were me I'd try the water suggestion and I'd also bottle a batch. I suppose I'd make one change at a time!

 

[mmmbeeer]

Have you been playing water mad scientist with all your brews? What about using some of your city's finest simply filtered to get out any off flavors and sediment and then treated for chlorine/chloramine if needed with some campden?



Your process looks pretty good. I like to do simple things to see if it makes a difference. If it were me I'd try the water suggestion and I'd also bottle a batch. I suppose I'd make one change at a time!

I started a while back building water from DI since my local water is extremely soft and high in alkalinity. The worst of both worlds.

I'm going to try and locate some great western 2-row.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[Croyzen]

Got it.

Are you small batch brewing while troubleshooting? I would think making some 1 gallon batches would be a good idea while trying to figure out the problem.

 

[Dynachrome]

....Sorry for the long post, but I figured you would need the info to understand what might be going wrong. Any additional thoughts or insights would be greatly appreciated. Here's a copy of my last brew, an Irish red kit from NB.

I don't really see where you would be lacking flavor/body from your recipe and notes. Fantastic notes btw.

With a fg of 1.011 it seems you are well within what an Irish red should be. As far as over pitching is concerned you could do an experiment. Try splitting a 5 gal batch into two carboys. Pitch as you would normally in one and pitch as the yeast manufacturer recommends in the other. I guess I don't have a direct answer for you.

Sorry, I missed that.

Investigate hotter mash temps please.

I like me some red. I mash my reds hotter.

Your preferences may vary.

One of mine: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/angry-dwarf-ale-little-red-recipe-progress-177479/

 

[grathan]

You don't mention any commercial beers that you don't find watery...

IMHO 1.044 beers are supposed to be watery, you really should shoot for 1.066 to get away from watery.

Your hops are pitifully lacking imho. If your going for flavors, hops are the single biggest way to add flavor to a beer. Using a minimum of 6oz spread throughout the 30-0 minute mark is an easy way to get hop flavor.

Your specialty grains are woefully small amounts. Your beer probably isn't even clean enough to detect 2oz of biscuit malt.
I'd suggest adding:
1-2# munich malt
upping biscuit malt to 1#
upping special roast to 0.5#
Up the pale malt to get your OG up to 1.066 (probably more like 10#)

Your yeast is also a pretty clean yeast. I would suggest using wlp002 for a batch.

Whirfloc doesn't effect head retention. Adding more hops and upping OG will also help here.

Your mineral additions also seem weak. try ditching everything but the gypsum and acid. Use at least 2 tsp for the mash and 2 tsp for boil for gypsum.


Your gonna want a good thermometer. How does it test in boiling water?