Help with off flavor and technique?

[TheSlash]

So I have done 2 extracts, Oatmeal stout kit and English Brown ale kit. Oatmeal was ok, English Brown had this bitter and a little astringent flavor, can't quite line it up with anything on the flavor charts. Not really medicine, no idea what a bandaid tastes like, not fruity, not butter or butterscotch.

It would be what I would think bad quality hops might taste like if boiled a long time. Not a good bitter. Leaves a little tannin quality on the tongue. Not very drinkable.

I actually dumped the brown ale after it sitting in the kegerator for 4 months and not improving. -I used bottled spring water on this one.

I thought maybe it was an extract thing so I moved up to all electric all grain. (Too soon I know)

First all grain batch was the Bee Cave Haus ale. Sounded like one you couldn't mess up.

Everything went fine, used filtered water, had good mash temps, nice crush, (maybe too fine though). Had water tested and no chloromites and a good profile. PH could be a hair high though. Think it was 7

The only things besides infection I'm thinking...

I pitched at like 70, took it to my 58-60 degree basement to ferment so maybe pitched to warm.

My boil off seems in line, but the boil doesn't really "roll". Maybe not a vigorous enough boil? I don't boil with a lid.

I cool in like 10 minutes with an IC..

I didn't do a d-rest because I couldn't raise the temp. Now I can though, so maybe raising the room to 70 for a couple days after fermentation would help.

Since it happened on 2 different sets of equipment, and on extract and all grain, with different yeasts, I'm thinking it has to be in my fermenting process. Oh the brown ale used a starter with liquid yeast, the bee cave used dry notty..

So Pitched at 70-75, placed at 60 degrees for 2-3 weeks, cold crashed 3 days then kegged...

Long info I know, but at a loss on my process here.

Could be bacteria, but I feel I clean well. Although I'm afraid to use cleaner in my buckets due to scratching. Both these beers were fermented in new buckets however.
I rambled... just confused as to why I'm not putting out drinkable beer yet after the 6 months of reading. Have a moose drool clone in the primary right now, if this one tastes bad too I seriously need to rethink the process.

 

[khursh]

Sounds like what happened to me before I started controlling my pitching temps and actual fermentation temperature. I believe what you have are Fusel alcohols. What yeast did you pitch?

 

[TheSlash]

Yea was thinking because I'm pitching at room temp 70 and then taking it down to a 60 degree room right after ferm starts.

First extract used wlp013 london ale
Second used nottingham dry.

I can't recall what my oatmeal stout used, but it didnt have that flavor, was a bit sweet tho.

My ferm temp should only vary by the yeasts heat.. The cupboard in the basement stays at about 59 day and night. So the beer could get up to what 69 tops during active? but doubtful.

 

[TheSlash]

Did a bit of reading on fused alcohols and I'm not sure... It doesn't taste hot, and I didn't see an oily top to the beer. Def didn't ferment over 80 sitting in a 60 degree basement cupboard. They mentioned medicine like though, and I can kind of see that. I wish it was more of an easy to tell off flavor.

If fused they mention you can age it. I did the brown ale for 4 months in the keg and it didn't change at all.

Should I do a d-rest on the moose drool clone coming out in a couple weeks? Bring the room temp up to 70 for a couple of days? Incase its Dyecetal (sp?)

 

[batty]

It definitely doesn't sound like what you have is Diacetyl to me. It's quite a buttery-butterscotchy flavor that I don't think could be mistaken for "bitter and a little astringent"

taste-test the green beer, see if you taste it there already, or it could be something in the bottling.

fermentation temps could definitely play a role - I don't think 70 is very high by any means, but if you're more sensitive than normal to something, it could play in. Usually see recommended around here to pitch lower and let it heat up as opposed to the other way around - yeast tends to make a lot of the ester flavors at the beginning.

 

[yodalegomaster]

When i started reading the Lit about brewing, It wasn't very clear that you need to do a 2 step Cleaning and then sanitizing in that order. I love to clean everything in Bleach, Please notice I didn't say I use Bleach for the Sanitizing Step. I remember getting a white film all over everything and a taste from that in every beer. What i would do is put a heavy concentration of bleach in one bucket, pour in to the other and rinse the first bucket, then rinse out the first bucket, I then create a batch of Star-San in the first bucket. I put everything possible in the bleach for 1-2 hours, scrub them off and rinse, then sanitize with star-san. Your going to have to limit your exposure of bleach to stainless steel item but 10 min will not hurt.

But this is the only way I have been able to avoid problems of bad tasting beers.

 

[TheSlash]

Batty, the Bee cave beer I just kegged I tasted a cold sample prior to carb and it was def there. For cleaning I use oxyclean unscented and rinse well, then starsan the crapola out of everything with either shaking or a spray bottle. I also wash my hands constantly during the process and all tools. I might be too relaxed on my buckets though, so afraid to scratch. Will scrubbing with Oxyclean scratch plastic?

I for sure need to start cooling down to 60 then pitching. The fact that my fermentations kick of withing 2-3 hours means it is starting high and going low.

Anyway to save my moose drool that has been fermenting for 5 days? Will bringing it up to 70 for a few days before cold crashing help?

 

[beerkrump]

Doesn't sound like a yeast issue.

OK, let me be sure of something. Your stout was OK, but the other, lighter beers had astringency issues. I think you may be onto something with the pH. At high temps and high pH, you may be extracting tannins during sparging. The darker beers tend to be more acidic through the mash.

Try using some 5.2 in your sparge water as the pH rises as the density of the wort goes down.

 

[TheSlash]

Doesn't sound like a yeast issue.

OK, let me be sure of something. Your stout was OK, but the other, lighter beers had astringency issues. I think you may be onto something with the pH. At high temps and high pH, you may be extracting tannins during sparging. The darker beers tend to be more acidic through the mash.

Try using some 5.2 in your sparge water as the pH rises as the density of the wort goes down.

Yea so many variables! I know on the first extract I used spring. I could have steeped the grains too long though... on the all grain, my water is like a 7ph, but temps weren't high.

I also need to oxygenate better, soo I'll try some ph 5.2 (heard mixed reviews on it) and get a pure oxygen setup and pitch lower temp next batch and see if I still get it.

I know trying more than 1 thing at a time isn't ideal, but all these should help the process and will be used all the time going forward anyway.

Thanks!

 

[ThePearsonFam]

I've not used 5.2 but most people do not like it... do some research here. I'd recommend using an acid to acidify your mash if you must. get a pH meter and look for the mash to be between 5.2 and 5.4. Lactic acid should be available at your LHBS, but don't use too much (no more than 2ml per gal) else you'll get a sour taste. 1ml will drop the pH ~ .1 in an average mash (assuming 5 gallon, avg beer).

 

[ThePearsonFam]

oh, and make sure you allow the grain time to change the ph of your water. grains will cause the ph to drop. I usually check my ph about 15-20 minutes into my mash schedule.

 

[JuanMoore]

Bitter and astringent is the textbook description of tannins. The ph of your water has very little to do with the ph of the mash. The ph of the mash is dependent on the color of the grains used, your water profile (bicarbonate levels in particular), and to some extent the mash thickness. The fact that the darker beer didn't have an issue but the lighter one did points to your water being high in bicarbonates. Do you know what your water profile is? If not, that's something that should be looked into even if it's not the source of the off-flavor.

Edit-
I also advise against using 5.2 or other similar products. Many here have had bad experiences with them, and it's a poor substitute for understanding and manipulating water chemistry properly.

 

[TheSlash]

Strange the extract kit used bottled spring water from Besco. Has the same flavor as my tap filtered water on this all grain....

Maybe I need to really focus on the mash temps too.... When I doughed in with 169 I hit my 154 pretty good. When I sparged I used 175, but let it sit 10 minutes... That too long to heat it up?

 

[solavirtus]

I admire your persistence! I wish I had more to contribute, but the only thought I had so far is try sending a sample to judge or someone who might be able to really tell you what the off-flavor is?

 

[TheSlash]

I admire your persistence! I wish I had more to contribute, but the only thought I had so far is try sending a sample to judge or someone who might be able to really tell you what the off-flavor is?

Good idea. I have a beer meeting coming up May 4th and I know there is a guy there who has been homebrewing a while. I may have to torture his taste buds!

Thanks