Help me make sense of all this 1st time All Grain data

[Newtobrewing85]

Thanks for all the help everyone! This thread blew up overnight and I missed it yesterday trying to dig out of snowpocalypse 2021, we have like 27” at my house.

It’s been fermenting very aggressively for the past 2 days, bubbling every 1-2 seconds. I put in a hose snd into water before I put it away because I felt nervous it was kind of full, 5 5/8 ish gallons. I looked this morning before work and it had bubbled up into the rubber stopper and into the tubing, thank god I sprayed it full of star San before I used it. But it got some of the late addition hops into the tubing and in the stopper and it was caked up. I don’t know how much it was restricting air from leaving but when I picked up the tube from the water it didn’t even make a peep and I got nervous. I dumped the trub on my catalyst to try and drop the volume a bit but also because it was a trub cake in that thing. Swapped out the tube for an airlock and hoping there’s no issues. Too much added oxygen but not much I can do there.

 

[Birrofilo]

How do you add late hop additions? My thought was just pop off the air lock and dump them in as quickly as possible, sanitize and slap it back in.

Two different things. "Late addition" means "in the kettle". It's hop that is thrown in the kettle in the final phase of boiling (or even "at flameout"). That extracts more the essential oils (the aromas) than the resins which impart the bitterness.

When you open the fermenter and throw hops in, that is called "dry hopping". Dry hopping normally lasts for a few days (meaning: you bottle after a few days) and you only extract the aromas from the hops, not the resins which impart bitterness.

So it's two different techniques which aim at the same goal, imparting the beer the aromas of the hop without adding bitterness.

 

[Newtobrewing85]

Two different things. "Late addition" means "in the kettle". It's hop that is thrown in the kettle in the final phase of boiling (or even "at flameout"). That extracts more the essential oils (the aromas) than the resins which impart the bitterness.

When you open the fermenter and throw hops in, that is called "dry hopping". Dry hopping normally lasts for a few days (meaning: you bottle after a few days) and you only extract the aromas from the hops, not the resins which impart bitterness.

So it's two different techniques which aim at the same goal, imparting the beer the aromas of the hop without adding bitterness.

Hey, yeah sorry I should have clarified my question haha. This recipe has hops at start, 5 minutes, flame out, 3 days after fermenting snd again like 3 days before bottling. Outside of opening the top of my fermenter I’d guess the airlock is the easiest way.

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

It’s a cereal killer from adventures in home brewing, it’s a 2 roller, yes. That might explain most of my issues so hopefully the next batch is an easy fix. I heard the credit card thing and I did that at first but it seemed to pulverize the few kernels I ran through so I was nervous. I settled on the .45-5 which seemed to crack the grain open but not destroy it, which is what I thought you wanted to do. After I added all the grain I kept going the wrong direction and it was falling through lol. So I got frustrated and I thought I screwed up and made it wider. I still couldn’t get the thing to go so I added the drill to the equation and it was easy. So likely all the issue was, was lack of the drill. I was spinning that handle and nothing was happening but it was a 1st time so everything is a learning experience thankfully.

I have a cereal killer...it works very well. Keep in mind that the grains are pulled through pretty slowly when milling. The first time I used mine, I didn't think it was pulling it through, but after a few minutes cranking by hand, it was clear it was working. I have it powered now, but when full it still barely looks like it's doing anything. Don't let that fool ya.

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

Don't read the 1.xxx SG directly on the refractometer. Refractometers must be read in Brix then converted to SG via a calculator. Absolutely ignore the refractometer's SG scale.

For any gravity readings taken after yeast is pitched you'll need the current Brix reading in addition to the OG. Part II in this link.

1.04 is a decent default wort correction factor.

Calibrate to 0.0Bx with distilled water.

Most refractometers have auto temp correction. This doesn't mean it will read wort at any temp. The wort must be at the same temp as the refractometer.

https://www.brewersfriend.com/refractometer-calculator/

Regarding the comments to not use the SG scale on a refractometer and the comments about ATC, I've been brewing all grain for about 5 years and hanging out here, reading a bunch, etc., ...that's the first time I've heard either of them.

 

[bwible]

That makes sense, so I guess after 60 minutes, I can pull and check. I don’t follow the point logic though, is that in the Palmer book? I admittedly need to do more reading and learning.

It’s really simple. The points are just the og times the number of gallons. 5 gallons x 50 (1.050) = 250 points.

 

[NSMikeD]

How do you add late hop additions? My thought was just pop off the air lock and dump them in as quickly as possible, sanitize and slap it back in. Are they really that hard? it was on sale for New Years and I LOVE IPA’s so I took a stab at it. It was supposed to be my 3-4th brew but I bought yeast for it that was sold out and the LHBS when I got there didn’t even have what I bought, dry. So they gave me the London Ale III liquid for no extra cost which was cool but it was only good through the beginning of April so I was pressed for time.

late additions are another big topic. In a nut shell there are different times when you can add hops that will focus in flavor and aroma rather than bitterness - this is where NEIPAs push the limits.

The last 15 minutes of the boil will impart some bitterness while preserving flavor (spice, pine citrus etc) and some aroma. The oils associated with flavor and aroma are not very stable and boil off as the oils transform into the more stable bitterness. These can be added in the last minutes and even after flame out.

This process continues until the wort cools down to about 170* and this is where folks will add "whirlpool" or "hopstand" hops.

Once in the fermentor is when one adds "dry hops". These too can be added at different times. For example I am looking at a write up a NEIPA which says to add the first dry hops after 2days and then removed after 2 or 3 days. Another batch is the after the first batch is removed and left for another 2-3 days then removed and then the last batch is added 3 days after fermentation is complete for another 2-3 days.


you can just throw them in and be good. But, some brewers do not want the grassy notes and other flavors that start to form after after few days. How to add and removed is debatable. I find the easiest way is to sanitize a mesh bag and some fishing line, sanitize and toss in. Pull the line to remove. The bag might reduce the surface area contact so I like to bump the dry hop amounts a little.


that's just my 2 cents to get the ball rolling. It's a topic worthy of further reading as there is a whole lot more to this. brewers and scientists continue to push the envelop on hop use in beer.

 

[NSMikeD]

Interesting. So in my case 10 pounds so roughly 4-5 tablespoons a little before into the bag and just let it sit for 10-15 minutes? I’ve heard people letting their grain steep overnight but I didn’t understand that as it seems like it would release the sugars. But, I suppose it takes a certain temp for that so maybe not.

Two different things. His rollers have a hard time getting the grain to fall between them, a slight dampening helps the roller catch the grain so it flows down.

There are charts on the effect of temp on conversion to sugar by different enzymes. Todays malts can be successfully mashed at a single temp (single stage mash). We BIABers love making beer as good as any three vessels multi stage mash brewer with a simple soak ;-)

I brewed a pilsner lager this weekend. Pilsners are drier and crisper as far as brews go so I wanted a more efficient mash with less residual sugars (unfermented sugars is what adds great flavor and mouthfeel to many styles of beer) so I went with a two stage mash, 30 min at 140 and then 60 minutes at 158. This maximized the two main enzymes so hopefully will result in dry crisp pilsner. Other than that I mash a single stage in the low 150s - the zone where both enzymes work.

This can get more complex with certain malts. But for now the single stage is all you need to do. Here is an area where the anvil is a huge plus. It controls mash temps!

 

[DuncB]

Yep I'm a fan of grain conditioning, 2.5% by weight sprayed onto the grain whilst mixing and left sealed up for at least 45 minutes before milling.
Cuts down on dust as well.
I just mill and do other stuff such as adding my salts to the mash tun and recirculating to mix it all then transfer grain to the mash tun.

Remembering to get my pH meter ready. Just invested in the preservation fluid for the bulb so hoping that it works a bit better otherwise I'm going to be looking for a new one.

 

[DBhomebrew]

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/refractometer-creep.682432/

 

[SMD]

On your mill, the handle should be attached to one of the rollers. Just remember that you always want to turn it toward the center (between the two rollers), and that should keep you from turning it backwards. Although, if your gap is set correctly, turning it backwards shouldn't drop any uncrushed kernels. Oh, and the drill is definitely the way to go.

This answers a lingering question I’ve had, as I’m milling for the first time this coming weekend. I thought my mill was defective when only 1 roller turned!

 

[Newtobrewing85]

It’s really simple. The points are just the og times the number of gallons. 5 gallons x 50 (1.050) = 250 points.

Ahh! Okay! Thanks!

 

[Newtobrewing85]

late additions are another big topic. In a nut shell there are different times when you can add hops that will focus in flavor and aroma rather than bitterness - this is where NEIPAs push the limits.

The last 15 minutes of the boil will impart some bitterness while preserving flavor (spice, pine citrus etc) and some aroma. The oils associated with flavor and aroma are not very stable and boil off as the oils transform into the more stable bitterness. These can be added in the last minutes and even after flame out.

This process continues until the wort cools down to about 170* and this is where folks will add "whirlpool" or "hopstand" hops.

Once in the fermentor is when one adds "dry hops". These too can be added at different times. For example I am looking at a write up a NEIPA which says to add the first dry hops after 2days and then removed after 2 or 3 days. Another batch is the after the first batch is removed and left for another 2-3 days then removed and then the last batch is added 3 days after fermentation is complete for another 2-3 days.


you can just throw them in and be good. But, some brewers do not want the grassy notes and other flavors that start to form after after few days. How to add and removed is debatable. I find the easiest way is to sanitize a mesh bag and some fishing line, sanitize and toss in. Pull the line to remove. The bag might reduce the surface area contact so I like to bump the dry hop amounts a little.


that's just my 2 cents to get the ball rolling. It's a topic worthy of further reading as there is a whole lot more to this. brewers and scientists continue to push the envelop on hop use in beer.

So much good info here! I like the fishing line idea. My recipe doesn’t call to remove them, just add them. With how wild this whole beer brewing prices has gone this time I’m probably just going to throw them in and hope nothing bad happens lol. I wondered too if it would make sense to drop them in the catalyst trub trap and let them soak that way, I don’t think they would float to the top so they would be easy to remove before bottling.

 

[Newtobrewing85]

Two different things. His rollers have a hard time getting the grain to fall between them, a slight dampening helps the roller catch the grain so it flows down.

There are charts on the effect of temp on conversion to sugar by different enzymes. Todays malts can be successfully mashed at a single temp (single stage mash). We BIABers love making beer as good as any three vessels multi stage mash brewer with a simple soak ;-)

I brewed a pilsner lager this weekend. Pilsners are drier and crisper as far as brews go so I wanted a more efficient mash with less residual sugars (unfermented sugars is what adds great flavor and mouthfeel to many styles of beer) so I went with a two stage mash, 30 min at 140 and then 60 minutes at 158. This maximized the two main enzymes so hopefully will result in dry crisp pilsner. Other than that I mash a single stage in the low 150s - the zone where both enzymes work.

This can get more complex with certain malts. But for now the single stage is all you need to do. Here is an area where the anvil is a huge plus. It controls mash temps!

Yep I'm a fan of grain conditioning, 2.5% by weight sprayed onto the grain whilst mixing and left sealed up for at least 45 minutes before milling.
Cuts down on dust as well.
I just mill and do other stuff such as adding my salts to the mash tun and recirculating to mix it all then transfer grain to the mash tun.

Remembering to get my pH meter ready. Just invested in the preservation fluid for the bulb so hoping that it works a bit better otherwise I'm going to be looking for a new one.

Thanks guys! Sounds like a little water will help the process along. I’ve learned an immense amount in just my first beer with all grain already so now I’m excited to do the next one. I just need this one to hurry up! I already have a Sierra Nevada clone sitting in the closet waiting to go.

 

[Saunassa]

Did you put your flaked additions into the full grain bill and run it through the mill or just added them to the malt tube? I have my gap set around .034". The one time I had a problem with my 2 roller was when I forgot and added it to the grain and through the mill.

 

[Smudgey]

roughly 4-5 tablespoons a little before into the bag and just let it sit for 10-15 minutes?

That would do it. The water just seems to dissappear and it feels dry again, but its more grippy; you only need a few grains to grip to get the rollers moving. I've found milling improves seconds after adding water, the 10 minute wait is to condition the hulls and reduce fracturing, which is the reason to mix it through well. I've just added dabs and mixed by hand but I'll change to a spray mist after reading about malt conditioning here :
https://www.brewersfriend.com/2010/... want to add,your grain bill for conditioning.

 

[Newtobrewing85]

Did you put your flaked additions into the full grain bill and run it through the mill or just added them to the malt tube? I have my gap set around .034". The one time I had a problem with my 2 roller was when I forgot and added it to the grain and through the mill.

I just added the oats to the anvil, I didn’t think they needed to be milled since you just cook them in water.

 

[Newtobrewing85]

That would do it. The water just seems to dissappear and it feels dry again, but its more grippy; you only need a few grains to grip to get the rollers moving. I've found milling improves seconds after adding water, the 10 minute wait is to condition the hulls and reduce fracturing, which is the reason to mix it through well. I've just added dabs and mixed by hand but I'll change to a spray mist after reading about malt conditioning here :
https://www.brewersfriend.com/2010/... want to add,your grain bill for conditioning.

Thanks!! I’ll read this. I have a bunch I need to read.

 

[Newtobrewing85]

Welcome to the world of all-grain!

Yeah, that crush looks too course to me. The low OG confirms it.

I recommend John Palmer's "How to Brew." For good details on the all-grain process. An older edition of the book is available online for free.

On your mill, the handle should be attached to one of the rollers. Just remember that you always want to turn it toward the center (between the two rollers), and that should keep you from turning it backwards. Although, if your gap is set correctly, turning it backwards shouldn't drop any uncrushed kernels. Oh, and the drill is definitely the way to go.

On strike temp, keep good notes on strike temp vs. target mash temp and adjust on future brews. You shouldn't need to add cold water unless you're way off. Stirring for a few minutes usually does the trick.

I usually plan on ~7 gal pre-boil, ~6 gal post-boil, and ~5.5 into the fermenter. This gets me 5 gallons at bottling time.

What's the unheated temperature of your closet? Once the yeast take off, it will start warming up, so keeping it cool will likely be more important than keeping it warm.

Don't read the 1.xxx SG directly on the refractometer. Refractometers must be read in Brix then converted to SG via a calculator. Absolutely ignore the refractometer's SG scale.

For any gravity readings taken after yeast is pitched you'll need the current Brix reading in addition to the OG. Part II in this link.

1.04 is a decent default wort correction factor.

Calibrate to 0.0Bx with distilled water.

Most refractometers have auto temp correction. This doesn't mean it will read wort at any temp. The wort must be at the same temp as the refractometer.

https://www.brewersfriend.com/refractometer-calculator/

The gravity reading on my refractometer is dead on with my hydrometer. Maybe I got lucky.

For a first time all grain brew you did very well. Adding cold water to bring the mash temp down isn't a problem.

Fwiw. Plastic shot glasses are great for holding wort/beer while you wait fir the temp to adjust. I also use them to hold the hop additions.

IME, the strike temps are too high for the Anvil 6.5. Now I go 2* above mash temp and leave the power at 100% while I stir in the grain. Once it’s in, I change the temp to the target mash and get the pump going. My lager on Saturday ramped up about 2* above mash temp fir a minute before dropping back. I assume that’s due to variances in the mash itself until the pump gets everything in equilibrium. If you don’t have the pump, stir to keep hot and cold spots from forming.

If you are using standard strike temps, make sure you power off or reprogram to mash target before adding grain otherwise the unit will heat up as the grain starts dropping the temp.

This does not line up with what I have read. My understanding is that the few drops of hot wort are not enough to cause an issue. I do not cool my wort, and if I had to cool it just to take a reading it would make the refractometer near useless to me.

By extending the mash time you wouldn't really extract much more sugars. Those sugars which were in the grains have been mostly extracted in the water already. By extending the mash you are changing its characteristics regarding fermentability. By giving more time to the enzymes to operate, you will increase the number of simple sugar molecules at the expenses of the number of complex sugar molecules, and this will give you a beer with more alcohol and less body.

Efficiency in extraction of sugar is to be solved with a better milling. Sparging (rinsing your grains with water so as to let the grain full with water instead of full with wort) will also help you get the sugar in your beer rather than throwing them away with the grains.

Also, the practice of "decoction mashing", which you find in Palmers' book I think, would also extract a little sugar more from the grains than an usual mono-step mash.

That's what I've gathered too. Due to the mass of the glass prism 1-2 drops of hot (near boiling) wort won't change the temp enough to skew your reading.

But something else will, and very much so: Evaporation!
And it will inflate your gravity reading.
So it's advantageous to let your sample cool down quite a bit before dropping it onto the prism.

I stick the bulb end of the sample pipette, containing 1-2 ml of wort, into a container with cold water, and give it a minute, maybe give it a swirl once or twice.

Or similarly to @DBhomebrew, scoop some wort out (~1/8-1/4 cup) with a deep stainless (measuring) cup and let it sit for a few minutes to cool down. It may still evaporation somewhat, but since it's a much larger volume, the error/skew is far less. Or cover it to reduce evap.

You can’t really check your batch OG with everything still in the mash tun. The first bit of runnings you pull are going to be higher in gravity than the total for the batch. This is mitigated some by recirculating with the pump. But if you are going to sparge later then those runnings from the sparge water are going to be much lower and will reduce your og.

After a few batches you’ll find your setting for efficiency. Measure after you collect all your wort using a hydrometer and remember to correct for temp. If you’re measuring 150 degree wort, you will add points to correct.

Then its simple math, its all gravity points. If I collect 5.5 gallons at 60 (1.060), thats 330 points. If I boil that down to 5 gallons, 330 / 5 means I expect to be at 1.066 post boil.

You also have to account for losses. You will have some water loss to grain, and you will lose wort to hops, trub, any “dead space” in your mash tun and kettle, and you will lose more to yeast waste and junk produced in the fermenter. I always calculate my grain bills with additional points or as higher volume to account for the losses.

But to answer the original question - If you come up short on gravity you can certainly add some DME to the kettle. Account for it as roughly 45 points per pound per gallon. So if you add 1 lb to a 5 gallon batch it would raise your batch og by about 9 points. Or to continue the example above, it would be 330 + 45 = 375. 375 / 5 = 75. So you would expect that 1 lb to raise you from 1.066 to 1.075.

I’m just quoting everyone to bump this thread instead of making a new one. I just want to say THANK YOU SO MUCH! Holy hell. I finally was able to do another brew since this last brew, all grain again, Sierra Nevada clone. I followed all the little tips and tricks I read here and took notes yesterday of everything everyone recommended. I laid it all out, felt organized, I even did my own water chemistry from distilled with a scale and the brewfather app! NAILED IT! OG of 1.055 with a range of 1.052-1.057.

Im so beyond happy and excited right now to feel like I did it right! Thanks again guys, you helped me a ton!

 

[day_trippr]

I love a happy ending
[and get yer mind out of the gutter ]

 

[Newtobrewing85]

I love a happy ending
[and get yer mind out of the gutter ]

I make no promises!

 

[day_trippr]

lol! I can live with that!