Help me identify (and stop) this taste in my beer, please!

[Walker]

This is possibly going to be a long-winded post, because I have to give some background info. SO, let's just jump right into it...

I do not like hefeweizen. I have only tried a couple brands (Franziskaner for certain, maybe one or two others). It was like 7 or 8 years ago when I tried my last one. The one thing I remember is that there was this aftertaste that I did not like. I can't even begin to describe it, but it stuck out most in my mind from the whole hefeweizen 'experience'.

This aftertaste will be called "AT" from here out.

FOr a long (before I started really learning about beer) time I just assumed the AT was coming from the wheat in these beers. Then I chanced to try a Sam Adams Cherry Wheat and thought it was a pretty damn good summer drink. I don't pick up the AT in that one, but I have always assumed the sweetness and cherries had covered it up.

So... my position up to recently was that I did not like wheat in my beers unless the beer also had some fruit in it. Weird, I know, but this is how I have been living.

Anyway, I was bottling my (failed)* caramel porter last night and was horrified to find the dreaded AT in my beer! WTF? I didn't use any wheat! How the f**k did that taste get in there!

So... can any of you with a broader palette clue me in on what I am tasting in these hefeweizen beers that have the AT? I know it's not the wheat since I have no wheat my porter yet still have that damn AT, so...

maybe it's an off flavor caused by too high a fermentation temp? This batch went at 77 degree, using cheap-o Munton's dried ale yeast.

maybe it's just the yeast I am tasting? the hefe's obviously have lots of yeast flavor in them, and maybe I am tasting this in my porter because of the act of racking it and sucking up a bit of trub? (If this is the case, I assume the AT will settle out of the beer as it conditions.) I also should note that I tasted a TINY bit of the AT in my IPA, but not very much. Maybe the hops overpowered it, but I don't know. Maybe just the yeast, as I was more careful in the racking and picked up little trub (dry hop filter helped a lot).

Am I getting the "banana and ester" taste here? I'm not a big Belgian beer drinker either, so I can't say I KNOW what that is supposed to taste like.

I tried to get my sister-in-law and SWMBO to help me put a description to the flavor, but neither of them said that they really tasted anything strange..... they also both like hefeweizen beer, so....

Any ideas what this taste is and how I can stop it? (Hell.. anyone even know what I'm talking about with the AT of a franziskaner?)

If it's the banana/ester thing, suggest a commercial beer high in this flavor. I'll pick some up and drink them and see if they have the AT in them.

HELP!

EDIT: The recipe can be seen HERE . It contains lactose, if that has anything to do with it. Also, this is the beer that I thought had turned to vinegar on me, but that taste later went away. I'm baffled.

-walker


* The caramel porter is also considered a failure due to the fact that it seems to entirely lack the flavor of caramel. I guess I need some different grains in there for the taste I am after.

 

[Darth Konvel]

Well, I'm just going to fire off stuff:
-Yeasties
-Flavors produced by yeast, ie bananas, cloves/spices, bubblegum, apples
-Was AT alcoholish in flavor, ie paint thinner?
-Or was it possibly more a mouth feel issue?

 

[Walker]

Well, I'm just going to fire off stuff:
-Yeasties
-Flavors produced by yeast, ie bananas, cloves/spices, bubblegum, apples
-Was AT alcoholish in flavor, ie paint thinner?
-Or was it possibly more a mouth feel issue?

Ir's not an alcoholish flavor. It's not a mouthfeel issue. It's a funky taste that I have tasted in other beers (that I didn't like) but others seem to like the flavor.

I like bananas a lot, and I wouldn't call this a banana flavor, but maybe this is how the taste is classified? I really feel ignorant on this one. No bubblegum, apple, or clove flavors for certain.

I'll be bummed if this flavor remains. I can't stand it and simply will NOT drink this porter. SWMBO can have the whole damn batch since she thinks it "tastes just fine... not caramelly, but still good."

-walker

 

[Darth Konvel]

Hmmm. Any idea what part of your tongue/mouth is detecting the offending flavor? That might give us some clue.

 

[Walker]

Yeah, I should have noted that, but didn't. I was too busy wrinkling up my nose.

I'll be MORE THAN HAPPY to send a bottle to someone if they can help ID this taste. It won't be ready for consumption for a few weeks, but you can damn sure taste this flavor that I find terrible right now in the flat product.

-walker

 

[david_42]

How about: "phenolic smells and flavors, which are sometimes medicinal and/or clove-like"? Hefe yeasts are selected to produce these flavors. Other yeasts can product them. Probably due to fast initial growth at 77F. It might go away in time.

By the caramel is a tough flavor to produce, even though there are many caramel malts. Most ales that have it, have just a trace. You could add a flavor extract in the secondary.

 

[Walker]

I'd have to say "NO" to the medicinal and clove-like flavor. Clove is a spice that I cannot stand, and any trace amount of clove flavor stands out in a BIG WAY to me. This flavor was certainly not clove-like.

I'm actually leaning more toward the banana/ester flavors, but this is pure speculation based on Palmer's words:

Estery / Fruity
Ales are supposed to be slightly fruity, and Belgian and German wheat beers are expected to have banana flavor components, but sometimes a beer comes along that could flag down a troop of monkeys. Esters are produced by the yeast and different yeast strains will produce different amounts and types. In general, higher fermentation temperatures produce more esters. Next batch, contrive to lower the fermentation temperature by a few degrees.

I think I'll know if it was related to the fermentation temp very soon, because my most recent batches are benefitting from being kept at perfect temps in a fridge.

-walker

 

[Darth Konvel]

I guess it's wait and see mode then. Hopefully it will age out. I'm hoping aging works its magic on my just-bottled porter as well (less then steller at bottling time) :crosses fingers:

 

[david_42]

Speaking of Mr. Palmer, porter and aging: I made a batch of Palmer Porter & it took about two months to mellow.

 

[Orfy]

The only time I've tasted ester (Pear drops) has been when the cleaning fluids in the beer lines at my local have not been cleared properly, it goes away after the first few pints are pulled.

 

[Dude]

maybe it's an off flavor caused by too high a fermentation temp? This batch went at 77 degree, using cheap-o Munton's dried ale yeast.

After reading through the whole thread to get a feel on exactly what the "AT" is--I'm convinced it is your fermentation temp. 77° is pretty darn high--especially when you consider that an external thermometer is probably reading a lot lower than the actual temp of the beer inside the fermenter.

Control your ferment temps and you'll have better beer. Period.

 

[Walker]

yeah, this is what I suspect, too, but I had some doubts because one other recent batch (my brown ale) fermented at this temp and used the same yeast, but did not have this AT in it.

I'm going to re-brew the porter and keep the temp in the sweet spot now that I have the fridge and see what comes out of the carboy at the end of the month. I'll probably stick to the same yeast just to have no other variables.

-walker

 

[Orfy]

Hope it works out better and you nail it. Otherwise there'll always be that doubt.

 

[Walker]

I am taking solace in the fact that my wife and her sister both think the beer is great. If it were just me drinking my homebrews, I'd probably dump this one right down the drain, but at least SOMEONE will be able to drink and enjoy it.

Thanks for the help guys... I think the brew-fridge is going to be a cherished thing for future batches.

-walker

 

[homebrewer_99]

I'd venture a guess the flavor is yeast.

 

[Cheesefood]

to change courses on this thread, let me ask this: For those of you who like the banana taste, have you ever added bananas to your beer?

 

[ScottT]

I'd venture a guess the flavor is yeast.

I agree with this assesment.

You like a an American wheat (fruit) but not a Hefe. The difference is the yeast strain.

You've been using the same yeast and one of your other beers has the same AT flavor.

As others have pointed out, lower your firmentation temps. Heck I firmented my first Scottish ale at 60 degrees even though 65-70 is the prefered range. This to ensure a clean fermentation and develop the malty character.

Next batch you do, switch yeast to White Labs WP001 California Ale Yeast. It ferments clean and crisp. I'm betting you'll loose the AT flavors in your brews.

 

[Walker]

Thanks Bill and Scott. This gives me SOME hope.

FYI: I have stopped using dried yeast. I finally decided to start buying smack packs from wyeast and have irish ale yeas in my stout. I also just made a starter for tomorrow, with american ale #2.

I just stopped using kits recently and am just learning about different yeast strains as part of taking my brewing to the next level.

I will pray to those beer gods to watch over my porter.

-walker

 

[SwAMi75]

I'll agree that it was probably your yeast and the high temps. Sounds "esterey" to me. Many of these esters are the hallmark of a German hefe, but aren't usually found in American wheat beers. At those temps, you're probably getting some feusels in there, too, which I hear can be nasty.

Phenolics are also possible, which can also be present in hefes, wits, and other Belgian ales. These are normally due to sanitation problems, overcrushing grains, or sparging too hot.

Do you like British ales? Many (if not most) feature some fruity esters as well....just not necessarily banana. Not that I'm a pro, but I'd be glad to sample it for you.

Again, based on your temps, yeast, and dislike for hefes, I think it's your fermentaiton temps and yeast. Get those temps under control and you'll be way ahead.

 

[Walker]

Do you like British ales?

Indeed I do. i would say that 60% of the beer I buy is an ale from the UK. I pick up fruity flavors in those beers, but... I just ahve trouble calling this particular flavor banana-like, so I don'tknow for certain that this is what it is.

I ALMOST ate a spoonful of trub to see if the flavor I was getting was the yeast, but if you stare at that stuff for longer than 5 seconds, any thought of eating it goes right away.

-walker

 

[SwAMi75]

Again, I'd say it's not so much the yeast itself, but the temps you're fermenting at.

Might this be a clovelike, smokey, or band-aid like flavor? That would be phenolics.

 

[Walker]

Might this be a clovelike, smokey, or band-aid like flavor? That would be phenolics.

Nope. It's hard to describe, but I would not use any of those words.

Helping me idenfity it might be futile. I was hoping someone would just see "aftertase of franziskaner" and jump right up and say "that aftertaste is coming from yadda blarg foo" and the mystery would be over and I could take steps to avoid it.

It HAS to be the temp. I have many many many many brews in my life. These recent ones have been at higher temps (just moved cross country, new house, could't find a suitable cool place, brewed anyway), and this is the first time I have tasted this in my beer.

Thanks for all the help with identifying the issue, but I am just going to mark this one up to experience and make note that a few degrees too high CAN make a huge difference in the beer.

-walker

 

[gibfried]

Hey buddy,

I feel your frustration. About a month ago, I went to the local brewery and got the sampler. They had some that had that stinkin' fruity tang. Blak! Spit! Cough. I've experienced this with my homebrews - when I didn't pay attention to the temp, and it became a warm brew.

I hate that flavor, if it's the one you are talking about.

 

[Orfy]

http://www.beerlabels.com/labels/beers.pl/120/brouwerij-de-troch.html

 

[BootYtRappeR]

I do not like hefeweizen. I have only tried a couple brands (Franziskaner for certain, maybe one or two others). It was like 7 or 8 years ago when I tried my last one. The one thing I remember is that there was this aftertaste that I did not like. I can't even begin to describe it, but it stuck out most in my mind from the whole hefeweizen 'experience'.

This aftertaste will be called "AT" from here out.

Walker, I like hefeweizen and have tried many different varieties, some great, some not so great. I too have noticed a horrible AT in some of them. I get this same taste - and most notably - after drinking a JW Dundee's Honey Brown Lager.(which I will never buy again)

I can only describe it as an astringent/alkaline taste. It makes me think of what dishwater might taste like.

If this is what you are experiencing, I too would love to know how to avoid it.

BT

 

[tnlandsailor]

No one ever likes to address this, but I suspect some sanitation issues in addition to the very high fermentation temp. If you pitch a weak yeast, and not enough of it, you give competing organisms a better chance to show their stuff in the finished product. Let's face it, we "sanitize", we do not "sterlize". Pitch big and pitch active.

Something also worth mentioning - do you ferment in plastic? If so, consider glass.

 

[Walker]

I use only glass for fermenting.

-walker