Help getting better coffee roast/dark chocolate balance from grains in Imperial Stout

[Noob_Brewer]

So Ive brewed ONE imperial stout and it came out pretty good (9.4% ABV) From the roasted grains part I used 1lb roasted barley (4.8%), 1lb carafa special III (4.8%), and 0.5lb chocolate wheat (2.4%) which equated to 12% of my total grain bill collectively. Got nice, intense roasted coffee (not burnt) but the balance with chocolate/dark chocolate wasn't there. Very little chocolate notes compared to roasted coffee. So now for my second shot, Im wanting to improve the coffee/chocolate so they are more balanced. Im unsure whether I want to simply shift the balance from roasted barley to more chocolate wheat OR simply up the roasted grain % with adding more chocolate wheat and/or chocolate malt (Briess). Never used chocolate malt before but descriptions state "rich coffee" --- umm ok that's counterintuitive lol.

Could this be as simple as 4.2% each of roasted barley, carafa special III, chocolate wheat or add in chocolate malt as well for a 4th roasted grain type.

So wanting to see what others have done to strike a better balance between coffee roast/chocolate from the grains. Not interested in actual chocolate/vanilla/coffee additions later on. Just want to improve this portion of grain bill.

Thanks.

 

[Miraculix]

I make a pretty good and pretty dark stout at about 4.5 abv with almost nothing in it but 90% pale and 10% roast. This gives me all the dark malt aromas that I need.

And now you are basically more then doubling the amount of roasted grains, when scaling this up 1to1!

I would keep the amount the same and just add base malts till I got my desired og.

 

[Noob_Brewer]

I make a pretty good and pretty dark stout at about 4.5 abv with almost nothing in it but 90% pale and 10% roast. This gives me all the dark malt aromas that I need.

And now you are basically more then doubling the amount of roasted grains, when scaling this up 1to1!

I would keep the amount the same and just add base malts till I got my desired og.

Thanks for the response. My question though centers more on how to pull a little more chocolate notes from the roasted grain components so that the coffee/chocolate is more balanced. I enjoyed my first stout which had 4.8% each roasted barley/carafa special III and 2.4% chocolate wheat (12% total grain bill). so just looking to shift %s to get a better balance. The grains I have on-hand are: roasted barley (Briess), carafa special III (weyermann- dehusked), chocolate wheat (weyermann - dehusked), and Briess chocolate malt.

 

[Miraculix]

Thanks for the response. My question though centers more on how to pull a little more chocolate notes from the roasted grain components so that the coffee/chocolate is more balanced. I enjoyed my first stout which had 4.8% each roasted barley/carafa special III and 2.4% chocolate wheat (12% total grain bill). so just looking to shift %s to get a better balance. The grains I have on-hand are: roasted barley (Briess), carafa special III (weyermann- dehusked), chocolate wheat (weyermann - dehusked), and Briess chocolate malt.

I think you might just be covering the notes you are looking for with an excessive amount of roasted grains. The more you throw in, the more of the more aggressive flavours well take the center stage and the less aggressive flavours will fade into the background.

I never got chocolate from a malt, to be fair. In not a single beer I had, also not from commercial ones. Eat a piece of chocolate, have a sip, compare, nope, that's not chocolate.

I know there is chocolate malt but it does not taste even slightly chocolaty to me. I get sometimes strong liquorice type of flavour from it and often roasted notes, but never chocolate. I think it's a huge confirmation bias thing going on here within the brewers world.

I think scaling down your roasted grains could bring you into the direction you want to go though.

 

[DBhomebrew]

Read up on perceived flavors others are getting from these malts. Adjust your recipe based on that info. Make the adjustments big enough that you'll register the difference. Brew it. Adjust recipe based on that info. Brew it. Etc, etc.

FWIW, I get dark chocolate from Weyermann's chocolate rye. I'd probably start by upping your wheat % compared to the other roasts if you wanted to stick with what's in inventory.

ETA: I wouldn't add a fourth roasted grain, especially if you're unsure what the first three are bringing.

You've got three dials right now:

Roasted Barley: Roast with bitterness
Carafa Sp III: Roast with no bitterness
Choc Wheat: Chocolate/coffee roast w no bitterness

If you've got enough roast in general, keep overall roast % the same (12%).

Within that, raise choc wheat % for more chocolate/coffee.

If you want less bitter, reduce roasted barley to compensate.

If you want bitterness to remain the same, reduce carafa.

I think roast makes us think of coffee, because that's where we most often taste it. Dark, almost burnt bread crust tastes coffee-like. I think the 'coffee' refered to with the chocolate wheat (and rye) is more the lighter coffee flavors.

 

[Noob_Brewer]

I think you might just be covering the notes you are looking for with an excessive amount of roasted grains. The more you throw in, the more of the more aggressive flavours well take the center stage and the less aggressive flavours will fade into the background.

I never got chocolate from a malt, to be fair. In not a single beer I had, also not from commercial ones. Eat a piece of chocolate, have a sip, compare, nope, that's not chocolate.

I know there is chocolate malt but it does not taste even slightly chocolaty to me. I get sometimes strong liquorice type of flavour from it and often roasted notes, but never chocolate. I think it's a huge confirmation bias thing going on here within the brewers world.

I think scaling down your roasted grains could bring you into the direction you want to go though.

I better understand what you are saying now. Thanks for the input as always.

 

[Noob_Brewer]

Read up on perceived flavors others are getting from these malts. Adjust your recipe based on that info. Make the adjustments big enough that you'll register the difference. Brew it. Adjust recipe based on that info. Brew it. Etc, etc.

FWIW, I get dark chocolate from Weyermann's chocolate rye. I'd probably start by upping your wheat % compared to the other roasts if you wanted to stick with what's in inventory.

ETA: I wouldn't add a fourth roasted grain, especially if you're unsure what the first three are bringing.

You've got three dials right now:

Roasted Barley: Roast with bitterness
Carafa Sp III: Roast with no bitterness
Choc Wheat: Chocolate/coffee roast w no bitterness

If you've got enough roast in general, keep overall roast % the same (12%).

Within that, raise choc wheat % for more chocolate/coffee.

If you want less bitter, reduce roasted barley to compensate.

If you want bitterness to remain the same, reduce carafa.

I think roast makes us think of coffee, because that's where we most often taste it. Dark, almost burnt bread crust tastes coffee-like. I think the 'coffee' refered to with the chocolate wheat (and rye) is more the lighter coffee flavors.

Thanks for the input! This is what I was leaning towards: reducing roasted barley and increasing the chocolate wheat. I think I will skip the Briess chocolate malt addition and see where these types of adjustments land me.

 

[DBhomebrew]

ALSO, don't underestimate what time can do. At 9.4%, that beer will likely get better and better. Roast and bitterness will likely smooth out.

 

[Miraculix]

Thanks for the input! This is what I was leaning towards: reducing roasted barley and increasing the chocolate wheat. I think I will skip the Briess chocolate malt addition and see where these types of adjustments land me.

When I was diving into the world of stouts, I started with a simple experiment. Clean yeast, Nottingham in this case, basemalt and three different roasted grains, one in each batch. Chocolate malt, roasted barley and chocolate wheat.

I brewed a small batch with each to understand which roasted grain did what to the beer. This was the moment when chocolate malt was basically not allowed to come back into my kitchen (chocolate wheat though, different kind of thing!)

Of course, personal taste is different, so I encourage you to at least brew one small batch with roasted, chocolate and chocolate wheat or spelt.

Otherwise you never know.... And also do the taste test with the piece of chocolate in your hand. I bet you won't find chocolate anywhere in your beer.

 

[Miraculix]

ALSO, don't underestimate what time can do. At 9.4%, that beer will likely get better and better. Roast and bitterness will likely smooth out.

This is so true, especially with roasted grains in the grist!

 

[DBhomebrew]

And also do the taste test with the piece of chocolate in your hand. I bet you won't find chocolate anywhere in your beer.

Do that with some 'chocolates' compared to other chocolates. Same result!

 

[Miraculix]

Do that with some 'chocolates' compared to other chocolates. Same result!

No, not at all. I think we don't have to argue that chocolate tastes like chocolate.

 

[DBhomebrew]

Ah, perhaps you have not been priveledged enough to have experienced what gets passed off as chocolate here in the States around Christmas and Easter.

 

[CrookedElbowBrewing]

So Ive brewed ONE imperial stout and it came out pretty good (9.4% ABV) From the roasted grains part I used 1lb roasted barley (4.8%), 1lb carafa special III (4.8%), and 0.5lb chocolate wheat (2.4%) which equated to 12% of my total grain bill collectively. Got nice, intense roasted coffee (not burnt) but the balance with chocolate/dark chocolate wasn't there. Very little chocolate notes compared to roasted coffee. So now for my second shot, Im wanting to improve the coffee/chocolate so they are more balanced. Im unsure whether I want to simply shift the balance from roasted barley to more chocolate wheat OR simply up the roasted grain % with adding more chocolate wheat and/or chocolate malt (Briess). Never used chocolate malt before but descriptions state "rich coffee" --- umm ok that's counterintuitive lol.

Could this be as simple as 4.2% each of roasted barley, carafa special III, chocolate wheat or add in chocolate malt as well for a 4th roasted grain type.

So wanting to see what others have done to strike a better balance between coffee roast/chocolate from the grains. Not interested in actual chocolate/vanilla/coffee additions later on. Just want to improve this portion of grain bill.

Thanks.

I make a chocolate Rye Milk Stout that I really like. I’m on a road trip and my wife is hogging the computer with my BS recipes but I would say that adding multiple types of chocolate malts added to the complexity. I would boost the % chocolate malts but use a light and dark chocolate malt. I used a chocolate rye malt as well. I also use several different caramel malts. I realize you’re trying to develop the chocolate aspect from the malts but FYI I also originally added roasted cocoa nibs to the beer but have switched to adding 4oz. Dutch Cocoa in the boil for 5 min for a 5G batch. The chocolate nose is amazing and you can get the Dutch Cocoa from your local grocery store. The roasted barley and carafa 3 are spot on. I used both and have also used a huskless midnight wheat which helps minimize astringency.
Cheers!

 

[Miraculix]

Ah, perhaps you have not been priveledged enough to have experienced what gets passed off as chocolate here in the States around Christmas and Easter.

Ok, that might actually be the case

 

[madscientist451]

So now for my second shot, Im wanting to improve the coffee/chocolate so they are more balanced.

I'm skeptical you are going to get more of a chocolate note by changing the grain bill. You could try adding some C-80 and/or honey malt to bring in some perceived sweetness or add lactose.
But I'd start with the beer you already have and run some taste experiments.
Try making a tincture with vodka and cocoa nibs. Then do some bench blending trials with your existing stout to see if that's going in the right direction. Do the same with some table sugar.
As mentioned above, if a more balanced flavor is what you are after, you may have to reduce the roasted grains in the next brew and then add some kind of chocolate note that's not a grain.

 

[Alan Reginato]

What kind of chocolate we are talking about?
75% cocoa, dark chocolate is one thing, a good one, btw.
Regular chocolate is another, annoying sweet, thing.
If you like it sweet, probably would have better results lowering roasted malt and adding crystal malt, maybe lactose.
If you prefer cocoa taste, light roasted wheat seems to be an idea.
I used in my last stout, Blackswaen Coffee Light W, L 150, that tasted, ironically, more like cocoa than chocolate malt.

 

[monkeymath]

I've used Fawcett's Roasted Rye in a few beers. It's an interesting ingredient: it is not very dark at merely 500 EBC, tastes quite ashy when you eat it raw, and gives off a quite intense chocolate-cookie type of aroma in the mash and the final beer.
I haven't brewed the same beer without Roasted Rye to compare - and the grain bills were too complex to allow a direct attribution - but both beers smelled rather sweet, but had a crisp taste, which I loved.

But I agree with @Miraculix that you probably need less roasted grains in total to taste any of the more subtle flavours.

 

[Noob_Brewer]

Appreciate the feedback all! Thanks!