Help Diagnosing Yeasty/Estery Taste for California Oktoberfest

[mikepowie]

Hello All!

Been reading the forums for quite a while, learned tons, thanks. Finally joined so I can post a question.

Background: new brewer. Did some partials and more complicated stuff a few years back with a brewer friend, but now doing it solo. So far, only kits and extract . Done about 5 beers so far, plus some ciders. While none have been amazing, I've been very happy with all of them...until now.

Tried to do a "Kalifornien Oktoberfest" recently. Ingredients:

• 1 Coopers Lager HME (sorry, I know, but starting off)
• 3lbs Briess Munich LME
• 1lb Briess Pilsner DME
• 1/2 oz Spalt Hops for 20 minutes (with DME and half gallon water)

Filled to about 20 L.

OG: 1.049

Fermented for 2 weeks in plastic fermenter. High kraeusening after 1-2 days. Died down after a week. Took FG and was 1.016, which seemed high to me, but figured it might done since it was 2 weeks and maybe Munich has less fermentables. Fermented around 70, but probably got up to 74 around high krauesening. Pitched around 68F. I know, it's too warm (been a warm October here so getting basement temps low was hard).

At bottling, tasted (to me) terrible, or least, like a Hefeweizen, with that estery/yeasty taste. I know my previous beers have had a tiny yeast odor/taste at bottling that goes away, but nothing like this. My wife, who has a far more sensitive palette than I, didn't think it tasted infected (i.e., sour Brett), but merely very Hefeweizen like. Been in the bottle two days and is still very cloudy, much cloudier than previous beers.

Besides the temp, I should say that I harvested and washed a Mangrove Jack M54 California Common Yeast that I had previously used to make a "brown sugar lager" with another Coopers Lager kit (the kit for the BSL was expired, so I called to complain and they sent me another one, which is what I used for the Oktoberfest). After the yeast flocculated out of my pint mason jar, it had (I know this is unscientific) about 1/3 inch or 1 cm of yeast at the bottom (none was trub--I got that all off during the wash). While the BSL one has a slight burnt sugar taste that I'm not crazy about (though getting better with time), there's nothing yeasty/estery about it, and is very clear. BTW, though I don't plan to re-use it, I harvested the yeast again to see what would happen. After two days in the fridge, the pint mason jar still has some yeast in suspension--previously, it was clear by 24 hours.

Any ideas as to what went wrong and if it's salvageable? Too high a temp? Overpitched? Underpitched? Infection? Wasn't done fermenting? Pretty sure never had an infection prior, but with harvesting the yeast especially, who knows? Is the FG too high and do I risk bottle bombs? The Munich malt taste was barely perceptible, as were the hops, because all I tasted was like a bad Hefeweizen yeast bomb.

Appreciate any thoughts. Cheers and 17!

 

[Jako]

i had a beer like this. i didn't wait for all the yeast to drop out but fermentation was overall done. nothing blew up but the whole batch is hit and miss flat or not, taste good or undrinkable. did the beer clear up or was it murky? also did you suck up the trub?

also the temp sounds high to me. could be the main cause. for me i use a old cooler full of water and drop in gallon jugs frozen to keep the temps low.

 

[mikepowie]

did the beer clear up or was it murky? also did you suck up the trub?

also the temp sounds high to me. could be the main cause. for me i use a old cooler full of water and drop in gallon jugs frozen to keep the temps low.

Thanks for the reply. I did rack it into a bottling bucket as I usually do--don't think I kicked up much/any trub. But I suspect the beer was murkier than usual (it was hard to tell, because it's a farily dark beer--but looking at it going through siphon hose, it looked cloudy).

Will definitely have to do something like what you did for my next lager batch. I did it before on a pilsner with decent success this past spring. I thought with the CA Common yeast, I'd be OK, but I was probably getting a bit complacent/lazy as well...

 

[SoCal-Doug]

I'm going to assume you don't like wheat beers or have had a few really bad ones

Under pitching and/or a high ferment temp can make things taste a bit different (bad to some, good to others). 70 to 74 doesn't normally scare me with ale yeasts, but your M54 is labeled as a lager yeast, re-engineered to ferment at 64 to 68. Hmmm, that makes 74 raise my eyebrow. To be honest, I've never used M54 so I can't speak to it.

Let a couple bottles get real cold and settled undisturbed for a week or two. When you (carefully) open it, try not to stir up the dregs and pour it into a glass. Taste it. Do the same with another bottle that you tilt back and forth and get well churned up before opening and pouring into another glass. See if there is a difference. You might identify if the "yuck" is mostly from the schmutz floating around or has infused into the beer itself.

If I understood your post correctly, i'll add that two days in the bottles is not long enough. Give it time to play make itself happy.

 

[mikepowie]

I'm going to assume you don't like wheat beers or have had a few really bad ones

I would say that's correct--the "Kristall" Wheat beers are the only ones I find remotely palatable, so that tells you where I fall in the Hefeweizen world...I would rather drink tap water.

Thanks for the advice. I will definitely do what you suggest (assuming no bottle bombs between now and then) and report back. Just to clarify: I should still wait a couple of weeks to get it to carbonated before putting it in the fridge? I have a couple of Coopers PET bottles to feel when it's getting hard, and it's started, but definitely not there yet (obviously, being two days).

I suspect the temps were too high, but the CA Common prior batch was around 70F, and few if any yeast flavors. I suppose under pitching is possible, but it was going gangbusters after 24-36 hours...

 

[SoCal-Doug]

Let it run its course. Personally, I find no flat or semi-flat undone warm beer palatable. It's just not soup yet.

I'm no pro at bottle conditioning, but if you leave them at the 64 to 68 to work their magic, then chill and settle, I think you should be good to go. Chilling them now will slow things down and I have no clue how M54 likes refrigerator temps.

 

[mikepowie]

Let it run its course. Personally, I find no flat or semi-flat undone warm beer palatable. It's just not soup yet.

Will do, and thanks. I agree that all my prior beers -- tasted at bottling -- were basically unpalatable. But they seemed to have 'potential' and they all lacked that overwhelming yeasty/ester taste this guy had.

If it doesn't settle out, but is indeed merely a yeast bomb and not an infection, I will tell people I was trying to do a Erdinger Oktoberfest Weissbier clone when I hand them one.

 

[mikepowie]

Update on this. I know it's only been about two weeks, but I opened a bottle earlier tonight. It looked liked the beer finally cleared in the bottle--took a lot longer than prior beers I made. I poured it into a glass in one pour so as not to disturb the sediment (which seems very soft still).

As you can see from the picture, fairly clear, and decent carbonation, though little head retention (nor surprising given the little time to condition).

Bottom line: the yeast/ester/Hefeweizen flavor is definitely still there. My wife's reaction: "Not my favorite." It's mellowed a tad, perhaps 25-50%. And you can taste the malt--perhaps a tad too sweet, which doesn't surprise me due to it finishing at 1.016. The yeast taste isn't unbearable by any means, but still very present and not to my liking. But since it's faded, I'm optimistic it could fade more with time, and perhaps the yeast will harden a bit more on the bottom.

FWIW, the harvested yeast has finally flocculated to the bottom of the mason jar, but it took a lot longer. Since I'm fairly certain it was not an infection at this point, the question is whether it was underpitching, too high a temperature, both, or something else. My temptation is to say underpitching, since it was brewed only around 3 or 4 F warmer than the first batch I did with this yeast. I would have thought 1 cm worth of yeast (not trub) at the bottom of a mason jar would be sufficient...

Curious for any thoughts.

 

[mikepowie]

I should add that I'm going to do the suggested SoCal-Doug test and let a bottle sit in the fridge for a week or two and compare with one that has mixed up trub. That's going in the fridge tomorrow, so it'll be a few weeks.

The one above had only been in the fridge for 24 hours.

 

[Jako]

Update on this. I know it's only been about two weeks, but I opened a bottle earlier tonight. It looked liked the beer finally cleared in the bottle--took a lot longer than prior beers I made. I poured it into a glass in one pour so as not to disturb the sediment (which seems very soft still).

As you can see from the picture, fairly clear, and decent carbonation, though little head retention (nor surprising given the little time to condition).

Bottom line: the yeast/ester/Hefeweizen flavor is definitely still there. My wife's reaction: "Not my favorite." It's mellowed a tad, perhaps 25-50%. And you can taste the malt--perhaps a tad too sweet, which doesn't surprise me due to it finishing at 1.016. The yeast taste isn't unbearable by any means, but still very present and not to my liking. But since it's faded, I'm optimistic it could fade more with time, and perhaps the yeast will harden a bit more on the bottom.

FWIW, the harvested yeast has finally flocculated to the bottom of the mason jar, but it took a lot longer. Since I'm fairly certain it was not an infection at this point, the question is whether it was underpitching, too high a temperature, both, or something else. My temptation is to say underpitching, since it was brewed only around 3 or 4 F warmer than the first batch I did with this yeast. I would have thought 1 cm worth of yeast (not trub) at the bottom of a mason jar would be sufficient...

Curious for any thoughts.

don't give up hope my brown ale did this. someone at work said he would try it even after i told him it was very hit and miss. today he walked up to me and said it was amazing.. i think its about a month or so old now. ready to race home and try one.

 

[portguy]

From my short experience: under pitching is nasty and you surely can smell it when fermenting. Very strong fruity esters. I once under pitched Mangroves Jack's belgian Ale yeast and it was nasty even for a Belgium beer. Eventually it faded a bit but the beer was not what it should have been.

 

[mikepowie]

Thanks, Jako and portguy. As for bad odors during fermentation, I didn't really have any. Just a very mild sulfur odor. I'm beginning to think it was temperature primarily, but what do I know?

Your comments inspired me to give it another go and take another picture. As you can see, reasonably clear, and starting to have a bit more head retention (this was taken only like 30 seconds after pouring, so it flattened out a bit)

Unfortunately, the yeasty/estery flavor is definitely still there, though I would say still a tiny bit less than last week. I tried one that had been in the fridge for about a week. It's disappointing because it's not cloyingly malty (like some American Oktoberfests). It's actually rather balanced in terms of that and I think the Briess Munich malt seems to be a very good product, but you can only taste that malt without interference for the first 1/2 second, and then the yeasty boys start making noise. Not the worst beer I've ever had, but disappointing.

Since no bottles are in danger of exploding (it would seem), I will continue posting in the case it improves in a few weeks/months.

 

[mikepowie]

Just another update: it's getting a tiny bit better still. Keeping it in the fridge for a few weeks helps as well, but there's still that estery taste. It' far from ideal, but at least I didn't have to dump it.

FWIW, I'm doing a golden crown lager right now, and used a combination of S-23 yeast and the Coopers lager-strain yeast it came with. Put the fermenter in a tub with cold water and keeping ice packs in it. Keeping it in the 55-60 range. I've heard some people claim S-23 yeast has estery taste, which I would be so pissed after this Oktoberfest fiasco. So far, just a mild/moderate sulfur smell, which I assume is to be expected.

 

[mikepowie]

Yet another update: as some of you predicted, it's hit an miss, mainly a miss. I have had a few people try it besides my wife. I've gotten that's "it's not bad, but not great" as well as "too Hefeweizen" and "metallic-ey". Some of the bottles "cleaned up" a little better where the yeast/ester taste was not too noticeable and in other bottles it's fairly pronounced.

I bottled the golden crown lager and while it had a tiny bit green-ish/cidery taste at bottling, I chalk that up to being not "beer" yet. Certainly no estery/yeast stuff beyond the trace amounts at bottling, and I think the GCL will be good after a few weeks in the bottle at coolish temperatures. As for the Oktoberfest dud, I guess it was some combination of bad yeast/under pitched/under-aerated/too warm (in increasing order of likelihood, from my guesses).