Head Retention in our Sours

[Funky Frank]

This is coming from the fast souring thread.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/fast-souring-modern-methods.670176/

How do you make a sour with head retention?

The answer from the fast souring thread is that step mashing plays an important role.

I would think that a step at about 135F should give the best chance as it allows proteinase to make medium chain proteins.

An example mash might look like:
Acid Rest 105F 10min
Protein Rest 135F 15min
Starch Rest 160F 40min
Mash Out 168F 10min

This being said, I already use this mash schedule and my sours have extremely low head retention. I usually have about 50 barley to 50 oats/wheat/rye/spelt/something and I use mostly malted grains and few raw grains. Soooo....what’s your experience?

 

[RPh_Guy]

I already use this mash schedule and my sours have extremely low head retention.

To clarify, are you pre-souring, co-souring, or post-souring? (When do you add the Lacto relative to the yeast?)
How much hops do you use?

Those steps look a little wonky to me but I'm not any kind of expert on that currently.

 

[Funky Frank]

This step mash would be for when I’m co-souring with mixed cultures of Lacto/pedio/Brett/sacc/others.

The head retention on my old pre-sours and my post-sours is terrible too. All my clean beers have good/appropriate head retention.

Hops of most of my sours are right around 5ibu.

What changes would you make to the step mash?

 

[RPh_Guy]

The head retention on my old pre-sours and my post-sours is terrible too.

Hmm, well if I figure out how to get great head consistently (without paying) I'll try to remember to update this thread.

Again, my knowledge of mash steps is still pretty limited...
An acid rest likely doesn't provide any significant benefits.
I see 130-131°F more commonly suggested for improving head, rather than 135°F.
You're skipping the beta range entirely?
I see 163 and higher as good for head retention. Maybe split your alpha rest??
Mashing out slightly higher like 169-170°F might also help.

This is all based on things I've read from sources I generally trust, but I can't really stand behind any of these statements or suggestions.

I asked about hop usage because hops are strongly foam-positive, so lower hopping rate may be playing a role here.

 

[cactusgarrett]

IDK how legit it is, but I keep hearing from various sources (pro brewers via podcasts) that pre-acidifying the wort (at least in kettle sours) aids in head retention downstream. FWIW.

 

[Miraculix]

I think the lactos actually eat proteins that form head, so that would make things complicated.

In general, the temperature step around 55c for the medium chained proteins didn't improve head when I experimented with it.
What worked was extending the mashout step at 77c to 20 minutes for glycoproteins to form.

Also wheat, malted or unmalted as flaked or flour, increases head.

Both together works very well, although I have not tried this in a sour.

 

[Vale71]

Low PH and high attenuation combined with hardly any bittering hops is a recipe for low head retention, I'm afraid.
I've yet to taste a sour (even commercial ones) that wasn't lacking in that area. I'm afraid that your wish of a sour beer with good head retention is a chimera.

 

[Qhrumphf]

I've never found anything that guarantees head retention in my sours (regardless of method). And I've yet to encounter reliable retention in others.

Rather bugs me that the BJCP expects good head retention in some of em (ex in Gueuze, it "seems to last forever". I have had exactly ZERO Gueuzes with a shred of retention. They'll foam big on pour due to the carbonation, but it doesn't linger at all.

If someone has found a trick, I'd love to hear it.

 

[Vale71]

Unfortunately there are a few things in the BJCP that are rather questionable.
Of course if you carbonate a beer to 5 vols to the point that you're basically just pouring foam then the foam "will last forever", except that it's not the same foam as it keeps getting replaced by new foam which has zero to do with actual head retention...

 

[Dgallo]

I have a lot success with step mashing and high malted wheat grain bills 30%+. Here is a picture of a co pitched sour IIPA. great head retention and lacing

 

[RPh_Guy]

I have a lot success with step mashing and high malted wheat grain bills 30%+. Here is a picture of a co pitched sour IIPA. great head retention and lacing View attachment 651596

Nice.
Would you mind sharing the recipe + maltsters + mash schedule so we can try to figure this out?

 

[Qhrumphf]

Unfortunately there are a few things in the BJCP that are rather questionable.
Of course if you carbonate a beer to 5 vols to the point that you're basically just pouring foam then the foam "will last forever", except that it's not the same foam as it keeps getting replaced by new foam which has zero to do with actual head retention...

They're better with sours than English ale. But yes. The guidelines are far from perfect.

 

[Dgallo]

Nice.
Would you mind sharing the recipe + maltsters + mash schedule so we can try to figure this out?

I’ll have to update the maltsters when I’m in front of my computer later tonight.

Grains
62.5 % - 2row
30% - white wheat
5% - Flaked oats
2.5% -Honey malt

Mash steps
146*f 30 mins
158*f 30 mins
166*f 10 mins

 

[Miraculix]

I’ll have to update the maltsters when I’m in front of my computer later tonight.

Grains
62.5 % - 2row
30% - white wheat
5% - Flaked oats
2.5% -Honey malt

Mash steps
146*f 30 mins
158*f 30 mins
166*f 10 mins

How about the hops? How many ibus?

 

[Dgallo]

How about the hops? How many ibus?

8 oz dryhop so maybe 30 at most

 

[Miraculix]

8 oz dryhop so maybe 30 at most

Ok! I was a bit confused because you said co pitched and double IPA, in my mind that meant huge ibus, but I obviously have no idea

 

[Qhrumphf]

I’ll have to update the maltsters when I’m in front of my computer later tonight.

Grains
62.5 % - 2row
30% - white wheat
5% - Flaked oats
2.5% -Honey malt

Mash steps
146*f 30 mins
158*f 30 mins
166*f 10 mins

Odd that you'd know your percentages and mash schedule off the top of your head, but not your maltsters.

Nothing wrong with that. Just different.

 

[Dgallo]

Odd that you'd know your percentages and mash schedule off the top of your head, but not your maltsters.

Nothing wrong with that. Just different.

I use the same step schedule and grain bill for my sour IPAs but I buy from my LHBS and they don’t always have the same maltster for their grains. Sometimes it’s rahr, Briess, or great western.

And it looks like this last batch I didn’t list the maltster. The one before that was all Briess except for the honey malt gambrinus

 

[mashpaddled]

You can add protein-heavy grains and mash to keep proteins in the beer but that work will be diminished by fermentation if the lacto strains you pitch enzymatically break down those proteins, which is very common with lacto strains used in brewing. Lacto releases the enzymes that make that happen in the high 4 ph which is why pre-acidifying to 4.5 or below before pitching lacto or a mixed culture can help retain foam. The downside with that approach is losing all the other fermentation activity you might want in between your post-boil ph and pre-acidified ph.

The lack of hops is also a huge reason why a lot of sour beers lack foam stability. Hops are an important part of getting the stability so if you are following old rules about barely hopping sour beers or the more recent zero ibu approach you are not giving your beer the tools to stabilize foam even if you have the proteins available to produce a great head. Add 20 IBUs of bittering hops to a sour beer and you will produce a good head even without pre-acidifying. The beer will sour but not sour as quickly because lacto is being deterred by the hops in favor of later souring. This will also make sacc happier to push out more flavor compounds brett can later manipulate. For quicker souring methods you can work around this by either souring before the boil or following normal processes but then dry hopping the beer.

 

[goodolarchie]

I get good head retention from my berliner recipe which is just 50/50 white wheat, pilsner malt mashed around 150 for 60m. Then kettle soured, aged with Brett and us05. Carbed naturally in the keg for the last 6 points (1.09-1.03) to about 3.5 volts. It was aged 6 months but poured nice from the beginning. Made for a nice rocky persistent head, I don't have photos as it's all bottle conditioning now, but it got perfect marks for appearance at our state's biggest comp last week.

My fruited sours never retain head, but neither do real lambics, and that's fine. A nice initial effervescence is appealing, but it always fades back to the glass, and the air and warmth lets things open up.