HBU Hop Packs

[czmkid]

I posted this elsewhere but thought I might get some more answers about these here...


I drove in today to pick up a kit and was surprised that all of the individual bittering hops in this particular kit had been replaced with an in house mix of an 'HBU' hop pellet pack. I asked what hops made up the 3-4-5-&10 HBU packs and no one could give me an answer. I asked how many oz were in each of these HBU packs and again no answer.

http://www.austinhomebrew.com/10-HBU...ck_p_7407.html


"DESCRIPTION
Austin homebrew supply is reintroducing the best way to bitter your homebrew, the Home Bittering Unit. 95% of AHS recipes are configured to use HBU hop pellet packs for bittering. Use of HBU guarantees that from batch to batch of homebrew and from harvest to harvest of hops, the recipe you brew from AHS will have 100% consistent bittering. Hop bines grow in Alpha Acids from year to year until the plant is split. That means one year a hop like saaz which is normally 3-4% AA might grow to 5% or 7% before the plant is split and the AA reduces back to normal range. What this means for your beer is inconsistency in bittering. AHS is removing this uncertainty/need to manually calculate IBU's with each batch, so that you can brew with confidence and certainty that the beer you made 1 year ago is the same as the beer your brewing now."


I then asked if I could just have the old recipe with the bittering hops that have come with this kit I have been buying for years and was told that the recipe was no longer in their database. I guess I could have brought in the old recipe printout in with me but whatever...next time.

So I guess my question is this....is the new kit the same price as the old kit even though it contains less bittering hops? And I asked and the answer from the floor mgr was 'this was done on the backend I don't know'. And I as the customer don't know either with out a previous price receipt for the same kit.

Sounds to me like they are using bulk hops they ordered to much of and passing this off like it is a great thing. On that note, my recipes had 10 oz of Citra. The sales guy pulled all repackaged 1 oz packages of AHS citra hops. So I said nah, after looking at the condition of the hops and seals, that I will take the YCH hops that are sealed and flushed with nitrogen. Then I asked if the price was the same as the YCH and the answer was ya we save some money when buying in bulk...Do you pass that savings along to the customer? Nope.

Something just rubs me the wrong way about this....especially after spending 140$. I don't expect for things to be free, but some answers would have been nice, and or the option to have the old recipe made.


What are yalls thoughts on 'HBU' packs? Maybe I'm all wrong here? I think that if you have been brewing a recipe for years and it called for 2 oz of 'hop x' at 60 min that's what you should use. I would think that a sub of 'hop xyz' with the same or similar alpha acids and ibus would end up tasting different.

Thanks for your answers,
Czm

 

[Calder]

Sounds like they found a way to use up old hops.

What is the Storage index of the HBU packs ..... I suspect they will not deliver consistent results either.

Bittering hops do impart flavor. I choose hops that either complement the favor hops, or use a neutral hop like Magnum. If you don't have the same hop mix going in all the time, you could get different beers.

They are not something I would want and would feel short-changed if I got a kit with them in ...... but I no longer buy kits, so no risk there.

 

[steveholehan]

I received an order from Austin Homebrew a couple days ago with the HBU packs that you describe. They definitely aren't packaged as well as AHB hops have been in the past. They are in clear, sealed plastic, and I could smell the hops out-gassing through the bags. This is quite different from the mylar type of packaging that AHB used to use. I suspect that the hops will go stale rather quickly.

What was really annoying to me was that I ordered a Falconer's Flight recipe kit which is(was until I complained) listed as a single hop recipe. For the bittering addition they included two 10 HBU packs instead of 2 ounces of Falconer's Flight.

The whole point of a single hop brew being...?

AHB customer support finally agreed to send me a couple ounces of Falconer's Flight so that I can do the recipe as originally intended, and they changed the description on their website such that it is no longer described as a single hop recipe.

As I understand it, the stated reason for HBU packs is to prevent seasonal variations in alpha acids, however, Falconer's Flight is a proprietary hop blend that was designed to give a consistent profile regardless of seasonal variations.

This is AHB's response.
"I will ship out the hops to you, but we cannot over night for Saturday delivery without charging you for the shipping cost. You received the recipe exactly as it was written and there is nothing wrong with the recipe as is.
The recipe description has been changed on our website to reflect that this is no longer a single hop recipe due to the new usage of HBU hops.
I will ship the 2 oz of Falconer's Flight today.
If you choose to order this recipe again, the Falconer's Flight hops will need to be ordered and paid for separately, but you will still receive the HBU hops with the recipe."

Quite frankly I am pretty dissatisfied with Austin Homebrew at the moment because they apparently can't grasp the concept of a "single hop recipe" which was how Falconer's Flight was described until this morning.

 

[thedon986]

To me, their quality started going downhill about a year or so ago. They are actually what inspired me to start sourcing my own ingredients locally. Couldn't be happier now.

 

[Calder]

What was really annoying to me was that I ordered a Falconer's Flight recipe kit which is(was until I complained) listed as a single hop recipe. For the bittering addition they included two 10 HBU packs instead of 2 ounces of Falconer's Flight.

The whole point of a single hop brew being...?

I fully agree with everything you have in your post. I just wanted to point out that Falconers Fight is a hop blend, so by definition, using it is not a single hop beer.

 

[Sadu]

I'm not sure the problem they are trying to solve here. Surely the guy assembling the kit can figure out how to convert hop amounts when different AA hops arrive. And the guy buying the kit doesn't have to care, one of the reasons for buying kits is so you don't have to deal with recipe conversion.
Personally I would complain if I felt that good hops were getting subbed for something inferior. Especially something like a pilsner or English bitter that doesn't have so much late hopping, no way you want generic bittering blend when you could have saaz or EKG.

 

[tracyk]

Yeah, I quit going to them a couple of years ago even though I could receive an order from them in 2 days on normal shipping rates. They use to have a wonderful supply of base and specialty malts, but not anymore. Good luck on your endevour with the hops. It is a shame that they changed that up.

 

[OldAleJay]

Howdy all from Austin Homebrew- I apologize that anyone feels slighted by this in any way. I will try and hit each question and if I miss one, please let me know.

Hops used: We have a lot number system for the hops and we will make this link available. Currently, we are using 2016 Northern Brewer and 2016 Cluster. Because we are able to go through large bags much more quickly, these have become our freshest hops available along with the most accurate IBU's because of the speed in which we are able to go through them. This is not about cost- this is about consistency. I apologize if this was received any other way.

Price: The 3,4,5,10 HBU packs are priced on their weight and the type of hop. Because some bittering hops are now more than an ounce, the price has gone up slightly. On the hops that are less than an ounce, the cost has gone down slightly. For the most part, you are less than a dollar in either direction.

Single hop brews: We have 1300 recipes, in triplicates (all grain, mini-mash, extract), listed at any time- We did our best to go through the recipes that we did not want to change. I apologize for any that our team missed and this will take some massaging. We will get the Falconers Flight to be all Falconers flight, 2 hearted to be all centennial, Czech Pils to be all Saaz. We caught most of these but a few did slip through the cracks- As we find them, we will fix them.

At the end of the day, our goal is to make all of our recipes consistent. I know some suggestions are to change hops to full ounces while creating the kits but this just becomes a logistical nightmare for maintaining any type of inventory or shipping orders as efficiently as possible.

If anyone feels that they must have the old format, we will make a second set of recipes for in-store use. We will also have some side by side comparisons with our new format and the old format on tap. The new format is set to the BJCP guidelines- The old recipes were all over the board. We really have made a We have made the product more consistent and you know what to expect each time. Some of the recipes have not changed at all as Austin Homebrew used a lot of Northern Brewer and Cluster as we dug through recipes- We have simply made them consistent.

If you get any information other than what I have stated, please ask to speak with Ben, Dan, or Jason. You can also mail me directly at [email protected]

Thank you very much for the message board- I am glad we are able to get some feedback on the new format.

 

[OldAleJay]

Yeah, I quit going to them a couple of years ago even though I could receive an order from them in 2 days on normal shipping rates. They use to have a wonderful supply of base and specialty malts, but not anymore. Good luck on your endeavour with the hops. It is a shame that they changed that up.

Tracy- I am sorry to hear that you stopped visiting Austin Homebrew several years ago. My name is Jason Smith, owner of Adventures in Homebrewing. I purchased Austin Homebrew in May of 2015. I was in Texas while serving in the Army back in the early 1990's. I fell in love with Austin at that time. When Forrest reached out to let me know that they were not doing well and he was going to need to sell, I saw a great opportunity to help local homebrewers, save the jobs of the people employed with AHS, and a chance to show my family what I loved about Texas and the Austin area.

We have a fairly successful shop in Adventures in Homebrewing, we have tried to add some of our more successful policies to Austin Homebrew. I can tell you first hand, that not everyone likes change With this said, the shelves are stocked, the staff is happy, and I am enjoying my new challenge here in Austin. Since I moved here last year, we have embraced the local beer scene along with our local brewers. We have had many classes on wine making, pickling, cheesemaking, and of course, beer making. We have donated to local charities, held pub crawls and other events with the new ownership. (I will even be in Hutto tonight serving some homebrew at the "Red, White, and Brews" event. (I am sure I have mentioned this, but I love the Austin beer scene!!)

I realize you may not be local, but there have been similar improvements in our shipping times and order accuracy. We have increased our product line significantly while adding more products every week - We added more than 50 last week alone:rockin: I would certainly appreciate it if you would at least take another look at what we have done - I think we are certainly providing some of the best service in the industry right now and we are improving every day.

Cheers!

Jason

 

[OldAleJay]

I'm not sure the problem they are trying to solve here. Surely the guy assembling the kit can figure out how to convert hop amounts when different AA hops arrive. And the guy buying the kit doesn't have to care, one of the reasons for buying kits is so you don't have to deal with recipe conversion.
Personally I would complain if I felt that good hops were getting subbed for something inferior. Especially something like a pilsner or English bitter that doesn't have so much late hopping, no way you want generic bittering blend when you could have saaz or EKG.

We are only using hops that will work with each style- you would never get Saaz for a bitter (this is Northern Brewer and should stay this way forever. The goal is consistency- If we see a large drop in Nbrewer AA, we may swap it up but for the time being, this is the perfect hop for bitters and will remain to be used

Please remember that we are going for consistent- We do not plan on changing hops every week or using old hops or buying hops because they are cheap. We have Pounds of Citra on sale right now because we were able to get them for a great price- we realize Citra does not work in all beers and would never use is for one of our HBU packs.

Just thinking out loud here- Would everyone be happier if we just put, "3 HBU Northern Brewer" or whatever hop name we use?? The recipe would still state 3HBU- but the pack received would be (northern Brewer or Cluster right now- this is still being massaged and I think we are going to go to a Mt Hood/Hallertau/or Tettnang for some light ales and lagers) Again, the program is just rolled out and we have room for improvement.

Thanks again for the feedback!!

 

[jackjacobsen]

Would everyone be happier if we just put, "3 HBU Northern Brewer" or whatever hop name we use??

I know that I would appreciate that labeling and I assume others would as well.

Interestingly, you can buy the HBU packs separate from a recipe kit. However, the description doesn't actually identify how the HBU's translates into IBU's. Is it just 1 HBU = 1 IBU in a 60 minute boil? Seems like important information to have. Maybe I'm missing that somewhere on the site.

The just released 'Tis the Saison kit that I purchased lists Kent Goldings as the featured hops with no mention of the HBU packs that came for the bittering charge. So, which hops were included with the 5 and 3 HBU packs that I received? I have a hard time believing that Northern Brewer and Cluster are separated out into separate packs for different recipes, seeing as there is no indication on the package which one it is.

 

[Calder]

5 HBUs is the same as having an 1 oz of a 5% AA hop. Or 1/2 oz of a 10% AA hop. Or 2 ozs of 2.5% AA Hop. It has no direct relation to IBUs.

So if you get a 5 HBU pack, it is supposedly the same as having an ounce of 5% AA hops.

This was a Papazian creation back in the 80s. It never really caught on.

 

[OldAleJay]

I know that I would appreciate that labeling and I assume others would as well.

Interestingly, you can buy the HBU packs separate from a recipe kit. However, the description doesn't actually identify how the HBU's translates into IBU's. Is it just 1 HBU = 1 IBU in a 60 minute boil? Seems like important information to have. Maybe I'm missing that somewhere on the site.

The just released 'Tis the Saison kit that I purchased lists Kent Goldings as the featured hops with no mention of the HBU packs that came for the bittering charge. So, which hops were included with the 5 and 3 HBU packs that I received? I have a hard time believing that Northern Brewer and Cluster are separated out into separate packs for different recipes, seeing as there is no indication on the package which one it is.

We have changed the label and you will see lot numbers and hop names on all new packages. We do have some of each left that are being used. Tis the Saison is all Nbrewer for your records. Cheers!

 

[firemedic14]

I too have been a little disappointed in AHS recent changes. The last order I had was missing one of the HBU packs. That would be fine I could get the hops at a local shop but I don't know what is in a HBU pack. The shipping used to be 2 days from my order and this time it took 5 days. The cold pack was warm when it arrived. I hate to leave because I have been using AHS for some time but I will allow the locals of Austin to support you and I well support my local Homebrewer Supply. Change isn't always good......

 

[OldAleJay]

Let me start by saying that I am very sorry for missing one of the HBU packs in your recipe. Please be sure to call/email our support team to get this right. We have a new picking system and it is possible that a few of the recipes loaded may have missed an item- Emails on our errors will help us fix this. I cannot comment on the 5 days for shipping without knowing the order number- If you send it to me, I will gladly look into this. I can tell you, it is out of the ordinary for an order to take this long to ship. [email protected]

Changes in recipes- It is fair for the change to be questioned. When I purchased Austin Homebrew, recipes were an area that I did want to work on. I started by removing yeast and priming sugar from all recipes- not everyone bottles and not everyone uses dry yeast. AHS would make extra money on these extras but why should our guest be charged for something they did not use. Not everyone liked it, but I do stand behind this decision.

Adjusting bitterness in 1300 recipes was the next challenge(please remember, these are in triplicate, all grain, extract, and mini-mash). The goal is to make them consistent without having someone go in and change each of them as alpha acids changed several times a year or as we are forced to change suppliers. The HBU system seems to be the best option. This allows for the recipes to remain consistent and for us to continually monitor such a large number of recipes. Unfortunately, managing the recipes would be a full-time job and we simply do not have the staff, nor can we afford the staff to monitor so many recipes for changes in alpha acids. I initially thought about going to our top 3 or 400 recipes but soon realized that our guest expects Austin Homebrew to have these available.

While at the Craft brewers conference this year, there were a lot of discussions on this exact topic. Hop providers such as Yakima Valley Hops were addressing this problem. They are suggesting that you use hop extract for bittering to ensure consistent bitterness while addressing flavor and aroma with the new Cryohops. It was a bit of validation that we were on the right path...AHS started this before the CBC and I really would like to think that we are on the cutting edge of recipe formulation for making this decision. The pros are doing it, why shouldn't homebrewers??

Our HBU packs now include the hop type and alpha acid on the labels. We have also made all recipes available on our website for you to view before you purchase. I feel this added information allows you to better know what to expect when purchasing from Austin Homebrew.

Change is not always good but in this case, I believe we have provided a more consistent product. Our recipe prices are lower than they were two years ago and we now provide the recipes on the site. I honestly feel that these changes are for the better and will gladly discuss it with anyone that feels I am wrong. I am clearly open to change and if someone has a better idea, I want to talk with you. At the end of the day, my goal is to provide the best recipes in the industry. I want to accomplish this in a reasonable honest effort. I also want to include our guest in these decisions. In-store, the response has been very positive. Online, you have helped add the hop type and alpha acids to the labels. I believe this can work and I believe it is going to produce the most consistent recipes on the market...I also would not be surprised to see other stores go this route as the idea continues to be discussed.

Had someone brought up not sparging back in 2000, most would have disagreed. Today, we have brew in a bag that has caught on with many of the homebrew community. Change is difficult to accept but I believe this hobby is continually evolving. Our recipes are just another example of how the hobby will continue to mature. The idea may need some massaging but I do not believe it is wrong

Thank you again for the feedback.

Jason

 

[Blain]

I think for me, I would prefer to see the types of hops in the HBU pack on the recipe as well. And really I think it would be nice to have the old Hops totals and intended AA% on the same recipe so that we can slowly "test the waters" to transition to the new method to see if we like it and also see and better understand what is going on "behind the scenes" with the hops.

However if the Hops used in the HBU is left off to keep us from using the recipes to buy elsewhere, then I understand that and we would just have to make our own notes to our recipes. However, I would like to add that I often download recipes from Northern Brewer and buy in store at Austin Homebrew more often than I buy Austin Homebrew recipes from Austin Homebrew because I have the option to download and review the recipe online and can load it into Beer Smith before I even head to the store. I like that your recipe is available online, but in my opinion it isn't complete because the HBU Hops and original individual Hops are left off.

More importantly though, I would think that just like the dry or liquid yeast option, or the priming sugar or no priming sugar option, we should have the option to use the old recipe or to use the new recipe with the HBU pack. I believe you said that we could choose either in an earlier post but hinted that not everyone working at the store may be aware of this, so I do hope that when I go in on my next visit to cash in my free recipe reward that I don't have a problem with this.

I will also say that before I even give the HBU a try, I need to understand it fully. Then I need to try it, and in order to continue to use it, I need to see the benefit as I actually use it. If it is truly a superior way of brewing then it doesn't need to be forced on anyone. Give us the choice and let it drive the market.

Welcome to Austin!

Best Regards,
Blain

 

[OldAleJay]

Nex time you are in store, please feel free to ask and we will gladly fill you in and be sure you 100% understand it.

Cheers!

Jason