Hazy Beer is a New Thing.

[drop6301]

Hey all, I've been having clarity issues on my last three brews, like supper cloudy. I figured a few possibilties, but not sure. Any other ideas would be helpful. Here's what I'm thinking:

1. It could be that the calcium levels are down because of all the rain in my area. I do add salt back in to bring the calcium well above 50ppm. Also one batch was RO water with salts.

2. I switched to a homemade hop spider that uses paint strainer bags. I clean and rinse before use.

3. Something after the boil is causing the heavy haze. (my post-boil sample is crystal clear after a short time )

I'm not necessarily wanting to use findings to solve this problem. Any help would be great?

 

[drop6301]

Hop 2 it pale.

 

[bleme]

I would rule out #2 right away. The others are possibilities. It sounds like you are used to clearer beer.
Has anything changed in your process?
How long do you leave in primary?
What yeast are you using?
Are you using adjuncts like wheat, oats or powdered sugar?
Do you cold crash?
Do they still taste good?

 

[drop6301]

The last recipe I did:

Grain bill is 75% 2-row, 14% Maris Otter, 11% Crystal 20. Citra .01 oz. @ 90min, .75 @ 30min, 1.70oz whirlpool for 1 minutes, and 2oz dry hopped.

90 minute boil with no difference in mash or sparging.
I use whirl floc with 10 minutes left in boil.

I leave break material in the kettle by siphoning out of kettle into better bottles.

"post boil after a short time" means that I pull a sample when the wort has cooled down to about 100F. After maybe 20 minutes the proteins bind and sink to the bottem of the tube leaving the wort clear.

It could be some bug. I used a new siphon on the last batch. I don't really taste anything negative.

Chilling does not make it worse, maybe slightly better after a while.

I must reiterate: it has been over the last few batches I've done.

 

[WayFrae]

I noticed a big difference in clarity when I started cold crashing and an even bigger difference when using Irish moss. Try letting the bottles sit in the fridge for 2 weeks and I bet that haze will drop out no problem.

 

[j1n]

What do you do to clarify the beer?

whirlfloc tablet?
Cold crashing?
Gelatin?
Filtering?

 

[drop6301]

I use whirlfloc with 5-10 minutes left in the boil. My beer goes into a keg that sits in a fridge at 38F. Still coming out cloudy after 5 days.

 

[WayFrae]

I use whirlfloc with 5-10 minutes left in the boil. My beersmith go into a keg that sits in a fridge at 38F. Still coming out cloudy after 5 days.

I bet you could either wait another week or two or use gelatin. Gelatin is super easy to do. Dissolve 1 packet of Knox gelatin in warm tap water, let it sit for 20 minutes. Then heat the mixture up to almost boiling, I usually get it to about 190 and let it sit at that temp for a few minutes. Then you can cool the gelatin mixture a little bit, I never cool it all the way, just to about 100°F or so. Then dump it in the cold beer and it should clear up nicely in a few days.

 

[drop6301]

Maybe I will do the gelatin thing. This seems a process thing and I have a thing about needing to know why.

 

[day_trippr]

[...]My beersmith go into a keg that sits in a fridge at 38F.[...]

There are times I think that's the best place for it...

Cheers!

 

[tagz]

If you reuse your yeast you might look into how many generations you are out. My 1968 (a heavy floccer) turned cloudy and I suspect reused it one too many times.

 

[Conan]

Do the beers stay cloudy throughout the life of the keg, or just at the beginning? What happens if you allow the beer to warm to room temperature in the glass? Kyle

 

[Yooper]

The last recipe I did:

Grain bill is 75% 2-row, 14% Maris Otter, 11% Crystal 20. Citra .01 oz. @ 90min, .75 @ 30min, 1.70oz whirlpool for 1 minutes, and 2oz dry hopped.

Did you check your mash pH? If the water has changed, that could be an issue. With that grainbill, and most water sources, the mash pH would be high unless some acid was added to the mash.

 

[Braufessor]

Could it be linked to particular beers..... Almost all of my beers are so clear you could read through them..... except my really hoppy beers, and the beers I dry hop a lot. Most (not all for whatever reason) tend to stay cloudy over the life of the keg.

Are these beers you are hopping/dry hopping quite a bit? Does it happen to your lightly hopped beers?

 

[zwiller]

Did you check your mash pH? If the water has changed, that could be an issue. With that grainbill, and most water sources, the mash pH would be high unless some acid was added to the mash.

+1 Also acidify sparge.

With a half tab of whirlfloc (so much better than IM) I get great clarity without the need for gelatine. While I do think hops have an impact on clarity, it is very minor. Hoppy beers should still have great clarity (like 8/9 on a scale of 10) but just not as bright as a filtered BMC (10). This whole "hops affecting clarity" is a bit of pet peeve of mine. I hear rookie beer geeks say "Musta used a lot of hops in this one it's so hazy" It's a hefe, man...

 

[Braufessor]

While I do think hops have an impact on clarity, it is very minor. Hoppy beers should still have great clarity (like 8/9 on a scale of 10) but just not as bright as a filtered BMC (10). This whole "hops affecting clarity" is a bit of pet peeve of mine.

Is there something else at play then with these beers? The ONLY beers I brew that ever are cloudy are beers where I am adding 3-5 ounces of whirlpool out hops and 3-5 ounces of dry hop. I can brew the exact same beer, without the big late/dry additions and have it so clear I can read a newspaper through it. My american wheat beers look like a pilsner they are so clear. But, for whatever reason, lots of late/dry hops and those beers are often cloudy/hazy....

I notice this in a lot of commercial examples of very hoppy beers too.

If it is not the hops, what other variables do you think are potentially at play that I should be looking at?

I use irish moss, great hot and cold breaks, I transfer very little material into kegs (stainless brew bucket with conical bottom for fermenter), etc. These beers, even when in a keg in the fridge will often remain cloudy for the full month they might be on tap - so even the cold is not dropping the cloudiness out.

If it was water chemistry or some other process - wouldn't it show up in lighter hopped beers too?

Thanks - any thoughts would be great. I don't necessarily care that much that the beers are cloudy, but, if they were clearer, that would be great too.

 

[zwiller]

Chlorphenols are what causes these issues. Hops are loaded with em. Higher than optimal wort pH will leach these and tannins as well. The more hops, the more the haze. The less hoppy beers are probably just less affected. Looks like your process is good. I would look into water chemistry. No reason to go crazy but take a look at what you're dealing with. Happy to get into it here if you want. Prolly the OP problem as well... The side benefit to dealing with haze (water treatment) is usually a bump in taste, like taking a good beer and making it great.

I am like you and not a clarity nut, but it is nice thing to have. Also helps convince others (BMC type folk) that it is properly made and good tasting. Like it or not, beer is also visual...

Whirlfloc works much better than properly hydrated IM and if you are just chucking IM into the boil, whirlfloc will probably blow your mind.

 

[Yooper]

Chlorphenols are what causes these issues. Hops are loaded with em. Higher than optimal wort pH will leach these and tannins as well. The more hops, the more the haze. The less hoppy beers are probably just less affected. Looks like your process is good. I would look into water chemistry. No reason to go crazy but take a look at what you're dealing with. Happy to get into it here if you want. Prolly the OP problem as well... The side benefit to dealing with haze (water treatment) is usually a bump in taste, like taking a good beer and making it great.

I am like you and not a clarity nut, but it is nice thing to have. Also helps convince others (BMC type folk) that it is properly made and good tasting. Like it or not, beer is also visual...

Whirlfloc works much better than properly hydrated IM and if you are just chucking IM into the boil, whirlfloc will probably blow your mind.

I AM a clarity nut- but never use gelatin as I want a vegan-friendly beer. I make a lot of IPAs and APAs, and they are my preferred style. They are still crystal clear, but the very hoppiest may have a very slight hops haze. That's it- even my Pliny clone is clear enough to read a newspaper through.

I do think whatever is going on here is water related, probably mash pH, but it could very well be kettle pH that is at play (it's important) and so that a good hot break and cold break isn't happening as well.

 

[Braufessor]

Hmmmmm... My mash pH should really be fine. For instance, my most recent really hoppy beer was a double sunshine clone. 6.25 - 6.5 gallon batch at finish of boil.
1 oz. Columbus 60
1 oz. Citra 20
3 oz. Citra 5
3 oz. Citra after flame out, and after a couple minutes of immersion chilling. About 20-25 minutes to chill to 60 degrees. And then let it all sit another 30-40 minutes before draining into fermenter. 1056 yeast starter, used O2.
14 days in primary.
3 oz. of Citra dry hop the last 4 days.

Kegged.

Water =90% RO water, 10% tap.
Calcium was around 115
Sulfate was around 225
Chloride was around 30
Bicarb was around 40

I think projected mash pH was 5.3 using brun water.

Sparge water was treated same as mash water.

What should I be looking for in Kettle pH? This is something I have never really measured or concerned myself with. I have really only paid attention to mash and sparge ...... assuming the rest would take care of itself.

This is a picture of my current citra IPA..... it really tastes great. To be honest, one of the best tasting IPA's I have ever brewed. But, obviously, it is cloudy as can be (been on tap in the fridge for 2 weeks probably - still not even close to getting clear.) Would definitely like to hear some ideas to clear it up - perhaps this is what the OP is facing too....

Thanks

 

[Shuznuts]

Chill haze is thought to occur from oxidized polyphenols polymerizing and complexing with proteins (or polypeptides). So limiting oxygen pick up, polyphenols and/or proteins may help with colloidal stability.

To limit o2 pick up, try purging transfer vessels (kegs/bottling buckets if possible) with co2 a few times. Use deaerated water (boil for a few minutes) for rinsing and other processing steps. In the absence of o2, heavy metal contaminants can serve as the electron donor in these interactions, so limiting these ions are important (in addition to health benefits).

For polyphenol control, the tips in water chemistry/mash ph already listed are effective. Grain husk and hop matter are both sources for polyphenols, and in the proper mash or boil environment, they can be extracted into wort. On the flip side, some polyphenols are thought to have antioxidant properties, which may have some health benefits. So polyphenols are not necessarily a bad thing.

For protein control, it may depend on the total nitrogen levels of you malt and the degree of modification. More protein in malt will correspond to higher protein and polypeptide levels in wort and beer. If you're going with a lower totally nitrogen malt, just make sure it's sufficiently modified to provide enough FAN for yeast health. Which brings us to modification level of the malt. A more highly modified malt will have more of the proteins degraded to amnios which will help with protein control in wort and beer. That being said, you could try adding a protein rest cycle on your mash or add proteolytic enzymes during maturation (papain or clarity ferm from white labs). One thing to note is that glycoproteins contribute to foam stability and often the techniques to limit proteins for colloidal stability can adversely affect head retention.

Some other techniques to separate protein and polyphenols are ensuring adequate hot and cold break formation which sounds like you're successful with.

For me, I like decently clear beer with good head retention. I'll make sure mash ph is low, ensure adequate ca levels, get a good, vigorous boil, separate trub from wort, and cold crash for 2-3 weeks. I try to use low protein or highly modified malt (us 2-row tends to have higher total nitrogen than UK malts) and ensure it's fully modified. For head retention I add a bit of wheat malt to the bill since it has a foam positive protein spectrum

There's other factors like excessive beta glucan extraction, carbohydrate haze and even infections that can contribute to haze, but I think I wrote enough for the time being

If I got something wrong, please let me know.



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[Shuznuts]

I found one! Heavy metal contaminants are electron acceptors for polyphenol oxidation, not electron donors.


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[zwiller]

Once again, your process appears sound but I have a few thoughts. First off, RO water is only good as the system's filter. Went through something similar with another guy and he sent his water in to Ward and it was more alkaline than his tap water. With a TDS meter you could get an idea if it is ok or not. Not sure if your buying or doing RO at home. Another thought is to try the cut with distilled. (I assuming your tap water is pretty bad) Also, acidify sparge and add salts destined for sparge to boil kettle.

IPA 12oz hops 5.5G: 4oz @15m, 4oz 30m hopstand, 4oz dryhop, 2 weeks. After about 3/4 weeks the haze is completely gone and so is most of the dry hop magic...

 

[Braufessor]

My RO is walmart refill station.... and, because I am paranoid, I have sent in a sample of it to Wards on two different occasions Both samples came out good....... My tap water is very hard (275 bicarbonate), but I am cutting 75-90% with RO on almost all beers. Only ones that I cut less are porters, stouts, etc.

Obviously, it can be done, as your beer looks great! I will have to do some more reading, search some threads and reanalyze my process - there has to be something I am missing. Like I said, it is only these highly hopped beers. All of my other beer is crystal clear........

 

[zwiller]

Forgot to mention shuznuts was correct, polyphenols... Great write up by the way.

You can't be too far off. Not sure if you have a pH meter and if you do is your finished pH 4.5 or lower? For my IPAs I mash at 5.4, sparge acidified to same with phosphoric acid, postboil is typically 5.2. I would try sparge acidification/gypsum in the kettle and see if that helps.

Like your pic better than mine! :rockin:

 

[Yooper]

Forgot to mention shuznuts was correct, polyphenols... Great write up by the way.

You can't be too far off. Not sure if you have a pH meter and if you do is your finished pH 4.5 or lower? For my IPAs I mash at 5.4, sparge acidified to same with phosphoric acid, postboil is typically 5.2. I would try sparge acidification/gypsum in the kettle and see if that helps.

Like your pic better than mine! :rockin:

That's about what I do too. I don't always acidify my sparge water, if I sparge with 100% RO water, but if I use any tap water at all in the sparge water, I acidify it to a pH of 5.9 at most. Postboil pH is 5.1-5.2.

 

[Wayne1]

I AM a clarity nut- but never use gelatin as I want a vegan-friendly beer.

Yooper et al,

If you would ever care to fine your beer with a vegan alternative to gelatin, try Biofine Clear. Both Northern brewer and Midwest sell it.

I use it in my micro at a rate of 1 liter per 10 bbls. The beers drop beautifully bright within 2 days. I was seriously thinking about getting a filter during start-up, but using Biofine Clear has eliminated all need for one for tap room service.

 

[Braufessor]

You can't be too far off. Not sure if you have a pH meter and if you do is your finished pH 4.5 or lower?

Wen you say "finished pH" are you talking wort in the boil kettle or post fermentation/beer in glass? What pH should I be looking for when it is "finished?" I do have a pH meter.

Like your pic better than mine! :rockin:

It does help that those were Lagers Dortmunder and O'fest. My IPA's still look like a glass of Orange Juice

Thanks for the help

 

[zwiller]

Sorry, not sure how I missed this...

Finished pH to me means post fermentation but prior to carbing. The goal is 4.5 or lower.

 

[Dylan42]

I noticed a huge difference after I started cold crashing. On my latest brew I tried throwing my Irish moss in at 30 min left in the boil to see if it makes any difference in helping clear out the beer instead of at 15 min. Good luck clearing your next brew!