Having trouble with 1st try at Hard Seltzer

[CrysA]

Hello!
My husband has been making beer for about 2 years and I finally decided to get in on the action! He recommended for me to contact the homebrew peeps because you are all so very helpful =)

As the title implies, this is my first attempt at making hard seltzer and it does not seem to be going well.
Firstly, we did all of the normal sanitization etc. that you do with beer equipment.
We used Distilled water, disolved the sugar, and added the mineral packet.
We switched out the yeast that came in the kit (US05) with one we thought would be aclimated to more of a broad temperature range and would bring the seltzer to a lower gravity (because, of course, this needs to be easy and efficient in addition to being less expensive than buying cases of white claw). We used EC0118 which had been stored in the refrigerator with the intention to use it for a beer batch.
After approx 5 days of adding the daily 1/2 tsp of Nutrient, the hydrometer reading had not changed. The starting gravity was 1.025. There was an offputting sharp odor when I opened the lid to do the following: We added a pack of US05 then after Limited results, we hydrated another pack of EC and after a nice oxygenation and foamy head for a day there is still no activity.
Any questions you need to ask are welcome! Your feedback and direction will be much appreciated while sipping my Raspberry Hard Seltzer =)
Thanks!

 

[cswis86]

What minerals were in your mineral packet? Since you started with distilled water it's likely that your water is deficient in something... calcium, magnesium, and zinc are all necessary for yeast metabolism. Also, what's in your yeast nutrient? Sometimes yeast nutrient only contains DAP (Diammonium phosphate) and no other vitamins or minerals. You'd probably have better results using one of the following as they are a more complete nutrient:

https://www.morebeer.com/products/wyeast-yeast-nutrient-15-oz.html

https://www.morebeer.com/products/white-labs-yeast-nutrient-wln1000.html

 

[CrysA]

Thanks for ypur reply!
The mineral kit comprised of 2.5g epsom salt, 3g baking soda, 2.5g magnesium chloride and the nutrient packet is food grade Urea and Diammonium Phosphate.
We use our tap water for beer but read that tap water has too many minerals for a seltzer, would taste like minerals, and be cloudy.
What is your opinion or experience with the de-chlorinated tap water method?

 

[Staticsouls]

Also "no activity" after a day of foam suggests there was fermentation. Were hydrometer samples taken to measure gravity or is the activity a reference to the airlock?

 

[CrysA]

In regards to no activity, the original addition of EU yeast and nutrient yielded a decrease from a out 25 on the hydrometer to about 22 after 5 days. The air lock was pushing a bubble or so periodically. I guess I mean it seemed like very little activity.
Temperature was consistantly at 72 during the original yeast addition.
Post all of this other stuff being added and the mixture being reoxegenated, we are now measuring at 18 and this has not changed since yesterday also, there is zero gas escaping the airlock, it has now flatlined.
Thanks for all you do!

 

[cswis86]

Thanks for ypur reply!
The mineral kit comprised of 2.5g epsom salt, 3g baking soda, 2.5g magnesium chloride and the nutrient packet is food grade Urea and Diammonium Phosphate.
We use our tap water for beer but read that tap water has too many minerals for a seltzer, would taste like minerals, and be cloudy.
What is your opinion or experience with the de-chlorinated tap water method?

So it sounds like there's no calcium on zinc... Unless your water is particularly hard I don't see any problem with using tap. Even if it is hard you can dilute it a little with distilled water. Do you have any brewing salts like calcium chloride or gypsum? You might be able to get fermentation going again if you add a little bit of either of those (1/2 teaspoon) and some tap water.

 

[CrysA]

Upon further analysis.. the gravity has not changed much at all. Our first measurement at 95 degrees converted to 1.025. Our measurement today at 72 degrees converts to 1.020

 

[CrysA]

So it sounds like there's no calcium on zinc... Unless your water is particularly hard I don't see any problem with using tap. Even if it is hard you can dilute it a little with distilled water. Do you have any brewing salts like calcium chloride or gypsum? You might be able to get fermentation going again if you add a little bit of either of those (1/2 teaspoon) and some tap water.

We dont have either of those so I added about a half gallon of tap water and agitated. We will probably start over with tap water if this is unsuccessful. Thanks so much!

 

[RPh_Guy]

We dont have either of those so I added about a half gallon of tap water and agitated. We will probably start over with tap water if this is unsuccessful. Thanks so much!

You need to use good yeast nutrients with amino acids, vitamins, and trace minerals.

Almost every beer brewer utterly fails at making hard seltzer because they're not used to having to provide all the nutrients. And that kit is garbage; they should know better.

 

[cmac62]

If I was going to make a hard seltzer I would add the water and flavorings, (fruit or minerals) then I would use vodka to make it to the strength I want. I suppose having it ferment from sugar could be kinda cool, but I know the mid shelf vodka is as clean as anything I'd get with fermenting sugar.

 

[RPh_Guy]

If I was going to make a hard seltzer I would add the water and flavorings, (fruit or minerals) then I would use vodka to make it to the strength I want. I suppose having it ferment from sugar could be kinda cool, but I know the mid shelf vodka is as clean as anything I'd get with fermenting sugar.

And how would you deoxygenate it?

 

[cswis86]

We dont have either of those so I added about a half gallon of tap water and agitated. We will probably start over with tap water if this is unsuccessful. Thanks so much!

I hope it works! If not, starting over with tap water and a better yeast nutrient should give you much better results.

 

[cswis86]

If I was going to make a hard seltzer I would add the water and flavorings, (fruit or minerals) then I would use vodka to make it to the strength I want. I suppose having it ferment from sugar could be kinda cool, but I know the mid shelf vodka is as clean as anything I'd get with fermenting sugar.

Yeah I would probably add water, flavoring and vodka in a keg and force carb it... I don't entirely understand why hard seltzer is "brewed" instead of mixed.

 

[cmac62]

And how would you deoxygenate it?

I did not even think about the need to do that. I would have put in some tasty water, some minerals, flavor and vodka. I guess alcohol does oxygenate, I guess the question is how fast can you drink it.

 

[RPh_Guy]

If you just mix water and stuff in a keg, certain ingredients (like hops) will rapidly oxidize and even mold might grow. This would occur even in a purged keg because water normally contains plenty of dissolved oxygen, unless you use some method to deoxygenate it.

 

[cmac62]

I dont know how oxygen sensitive alcohol and flavorings are, but I do know how to sanitize a keg.

 

[cswis86]

If you just mix water and stuff in a keg, certain ingredients (like hops) will rapidly oxidize and even mold might grow. This would occur even in a purged keg because water normally contains plenty of dissolved oxygen, unless you use some method to deoxygenate it.

Boil it.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Boil it.

Indeed you could pre-boil and rapidly chill the water before adding the other ingredients. That would help, but still wouldn't be as effective as fermentation.

I do know how to sanitize a keg.

Mold spores are everywhere, very prevalent in the air and they are not always killed by common sanitizers.
With brewing, we generally don't worry about mold because we simply deprive it of oxygen, rather than relying on sanitation.

 

[Yooper]

And how would you deoxygenate it?

Just curious- why do you have to? I have seltzer water on tap. Oxygen isn't an issue.

If you just mix water and stuff in a keg, certain ingredients (like hops) will rapidly oxidize and even mold might grow. This would occur even in a purged keg because water normally contains plenty of dissolved oxygen, unless you use some method to deoxygenate it.

I think water + vodka + flavors would last a LONG time in a keg without mold(?) or other things in the fridge. I keep water, kombucha, beer, etc in the kegerator. I don't think any of this is a problem.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Just curious- why do you have to? I have seltzer water on tap. Oxygen isn't an issue.

It depends on the susceptibility to oxidation of the flavoring components of your recipe. Some things would oxidize (hops are a good example) and other things wouldn't.

I keep water, kombucha, beer, etc in the kegerator. I don't think any of this is a problem.

It is probably a low risk, depending on the beverage and the process. On the other hand, some people even report mold growing in a bucket filled with Star San. Only air and moisture are required for any spores to grow.
Plus you've been doing this a long time so I'd assume your products are not getting much as much air exposure as with newbies.

Fermentation naturally deoxygenates.

 

[cswis86]

If you boil the water, let it sit in the kettle to cool overnight, then siphon into a keg the next day I don't see why that would be less effective than fermentation. Boiling will remove all the dissolved gases and yes transferring will re-introduce some oxygen but that's no different than siphoning beer into a keg. Time and temperature are factors too so I probably wouldn't even worry about oxidation or boiling if the seltzer was kept cold and consumed within a couple months.

 

[RPh_Guy]

If you boil the water, let it sit in the kettle to cool overnight, then siphon into a keg the next day I don't see why that would be less effective than fermentation.

Sure, if you purge the keg and closed transfer the boiling water to it. Otherwise it will just absorb oxygen from the air.

Brewers concerned about oxygen aren't just siphoning into a keg.

However you want to brew, it's all good. I'm just giving some food for thought if your seltzer has ingredients that may oxidize and you're thinking of just mixing ingredients rather than fermenting it.

 

[cswis86]

Sure, if you purge the keg and closed transfer the boiling water to it. Otherwise it will just absorb oxygen from the air.

Brewers concerned about oxygen aren't just siphoning into a keg.

However you want to brew, it's all good. I'm just giving some food for thought if your seltzer has ingredients that may oxidize and you're thinking of just mixing ingredients rather than fermenting it.

But how much oxygen is absorbed? And is it really worth the extra effort? That's my point. I imagine most homebrewers are siphoning their beer and not doing closed transfers from the fermenter into a purged keg.

 

[RPh_Guy]

But how much oxygen is absorbed?

Around 1-2ppm per hour until equilibrium.

If you don't feel the need to prevent oxidation, then just don't worry about it.

 

[NitrogenWidget]

1/2 tsp of nutrient or 1/2 tsp of nutrient per gallon?
How big of a batch is this?

I've made this stuff 3 times in the last few weeks.
2 1 gallon test batches.
one with corn sugar and one with cane sugar using only a lb of sugar for the 1 gallon test batches.
after determining I really could not tell a difference between the two batches...

3rd batch is 5 gallons with 8lbs of table sugar with intent to dilute and split between two kegs for two different flavors.

I'm using red star premier classique dry wine yeast. The bulk stuff off amizon.
for the 1 gallon batches I added 1/2 tsp of nutrient and 1/4 cup of sugar to a mason jar along with the yeast to get it going.
when it settled down I pitched it.
for 3 days i gave it 1/2 tsp of nutrient.
I used tap water.
took 3 days for the corn sugar one to drop from high 1.040's to .999
took about 4 days for the cane sugar to drop down to 1.020 ish.
I thought it stalled and left it for a few days more days in the low 70's and it dropped down to 1.002.


for the 5 gallon batch I did the same but feeding the yeast twice before pitching.
I don't have a ferm chamber right now so it's a little slow since my kitchen is between 60 & 65 depending on the time of day.
Gravity was 1.090 something I think on wed when I started it and it's now down to 1.070.
so i'm going to move the carboy to the room next to the wood stove and get the temp up a little to see if it kicks back up.

 

[Yooper]

I don't have any good words of wisdom. In my experience (25+ years), fermented sugar wash tastes horrible no matter what you do. The only use I know of with good results is to distill it.

 

[NitrogenWidget]

I don't have any good words of wisdom. In my experience (25+ years), fermented sugar wash tastes horrible no matter what you do. The only use I know of with good results is to distill it.

well, soda water by itself doesn't taste all that great.
so you aren't wrong.

that's why we mix it with flavored vodka and fruit flavors.

 

[Yooper]

well, soda water by itself doesn't taste all that great.
so you aren't wrong.

that's why we mix it with flavored vodka and fruit flavors.

I actually like soda water (have RO water with some additions on tap). And I like vodka and fruit and soda water.

But fermented sugar wash tastes horrid. If you're distilling it, that doesn't matter. If you plan on drinking it, it does.

 

[NitrogenWidget]

I actually like soda water (have RO water with some additions on tap). And I like vodka and fruit and soda water.

But fermented sugar wash tastes horrid. If you're distilling it, that doesn't matter. If you plan on drinking it, it does.

i've read this the last few yrs when I started looking into it, but i'm not seeing it.

my fermented sugar wash tastes just like flat soda water.
when I added lime juice and hit it with the soda stream it tasted like a hard sparkling lime water.

maybe it's the water or type of yeast used?

 

[Yooper]

i've read this the last few yrs when I started looking into it, but i'm not seeing it.

my fermented sugar wash tastes just like flat soda water.
when I added lime juice and hit it with the soda stream it tasted like a hard sparkling lime water.

maybe it's the water or type of yeast used?

Maybe. I haven't had good results, and gave up. I've fermented everything from carrots to zucchini, spoken about fermentation at HomebrewCon, won awards for my beer and wines, but totally gave up on "hard" water due to the flavor impact.
I'm glad you've had good results!

 

[eric19312]

Just kegged my first batch today. Did 8 pounds corn sugar and 1 pound DME in an 11 gallon batch. Thought the DME might provide a bit of nutrient to keep the yeast going. Also added an ounce of brewers yeast slurry into the boil for additional nutrient. Fermented with EC-1118 did a half tsp DAP on day 2 and 5. Went from 1.037 to 1.001 in 2 weeks. Packaged with ginger extract. Tasted pretty good flat and warm looking forward to carbonated and chilled.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I don't see how this would be any different than making mead, because honey is pretty much straight sugar. Modern nutrition methods yield results that are drinkable immediately. Plus these seltzers tend to be lower gravity than most meads, and therefore have lower risk of off flavors from fermentation.

 

[Yooper]

I don't see how this would be any different than making mead, because honey is pretty much straight sugar. Modern nutrition methods yield results that are drinkable immediately. Plus these seltzers tend to be lower gravity than most meads, and therefore have lower risk of off flavors from fermentation.

It's not the same. Meads are great. Fermented sugar wash has not been good for me. Of course, honey has some flavor. Plain sugar doesn't have the same flavor or nuances. I usually use 3 pounds of honey per gallon of meads, so it's not alot of water though.

How many times have you tried this? Curious because I'm pretty decent at this, and wanted to hear more success stories!

 

[RPh_Guy]

How many times have you tried this?

I have no interest in making hard seltzer. However I have made still "wine" from candy corn as a novelty and it was "drinkable", more-or-less.

I only compared seltzer to mead with regard to the relative ease of ensuring a healthy fermentation, with proper yeast handling and nutrients.
People generally do add flavoring to seltzers (and mead for that matter), and there are plenty of threads with success stories fermenting sugar for hard seltzer.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/sparkling-hard-water-recipe.632001/

 

[Yooper]

I have no interest in making hard seltzer.

I appreciate your thoughts and advice. I do think it's a little out of place to keep arguing with people who HAVE done this, more than once, though about the best way to do it- and the results.

Plain sugar water definitely is NOT mead. It doesn't taste like mead, it doesn't ferment like mead, etc. It's not always possible to apply the same principals to different ABVs, different ingredients, different techniques, etc.

Don't mean to argue, and I appreciate your input. It's helpful to have all viewpoints. It's also helpful to speak from experience and not just theory.

 

[Krasdale]

My neverfail nutrient for almost flavorless sugar wash is a small amount of (herbs added) yerba mate and oatmeal run thru a french press, juice and pressings. Vague herbal tinge and tannin bite.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I appreciate your thoughts and advice. I do think it's a little out of place to keep arguing with people who HAVE done this, more than once, though about the best way to do it- and the results.

Plain sugar water definitely is NOT mead. It doesn't taste like mead, it doesn't ferment like mead, etc. It's not always possible to apply the same principals to different ABVs, different ingredients, different techniques, etc.

Don't mean to argue, and I appreciate your input. It's helpful to have all viewpoints. It's also helpful to speak from experience and not just theory.

I totally believe it doesn't taste the same, which is why I don't want to make it.

I wasn't meaning to discount your experience. It's helpful to know that even experienced brewers can struggle to make a decent fermented "sugar wash".

I was just trying to bring a bit of knowledge to the table with regard to the yeast since that's where brewers are failing. As I linked above, some people have had good results with it when they actually provide nutrition. I'm not sure it's right to tell people to give up trying because it sucks.

 

[CrysA]

Update! 2nd try was a success!
5.5 gals tap water, 4lbs corn sugar, 05 yeast, set up in a controlled temp setting with a heated seed pad taped to the outside of the fermenter and a cooler of water with airconditioner coil on a thermostat to circulate.
Added a dramm of raspberry flavoring then added another tsp of flavoring (I liked it better with just the dramm). It was nice and dry, not sugary, and carbonated well. I ended up with about 4.5% alcohol.
I am on my 3rd try now and doing the ec yeast without temp control to see if it was just not enough nutrients, as i had done distilled water with a mineral packet before. So far, it is not working either .... gonna add 05 yeast this afternoon if it is still flatlining.

 

[CrysA]

If I was going to make a hard seltzer I would add the water and flavorings, (fruit or minerals) then I would use vodka to make it to the strength I want. I suppose having it ferment from sugar could be kinda cool, but I know the mid shelf vodka is as clean as anything I'd get with fermenting sugar.

I've considered carbonating water but it would be more work and not save me any money in liquor.

 

[CrysA]

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