Have I been batch sparging wrong?

[storytyme]

I have read a lot of posts all over the internet and I think I am still a bit confused, so I will keep it short and simple and am looking for some clear answers. I have batch sparged for 30+ batches now and my efficiency is around 60-65%. Here is what I do:

Mash in a cooler at an example temp of 152 degrees for 60 min.

Drain the mash tun.

Add 168 degree water to mash tun. Stir. Let it sit for 20 min, then drain to get pre-boil volume.

Do I need to add hotter water than the 168? Should I add hot water before I drain the first time? What are my errors or improvements that I can make to my process?

Any advice and constructive criticism is GREATLY appreciated.

 

[Bobby_M]

You don't NEED hotter water but you can use hotter water in the range of 185-190F and the main benefit of doing so is that your total wort will be closer to boiling temps than using cooler water. You don't need the 20 minute rest either. Just add, stir it in really well for 3 minutes, vorlauf and drain. Your efficiency is rather low, but it's probably related to a coarse crush.

 

[titansvol]

I agree with Bobby. You might want to check your crush.

 

[storytyme]

My LHBS crushes the grains. How to I address it with them with out sounding like a jerk?

 

[b-boy]

I used to do a double batch sparge and let my mash tun rest for 10 minutes before draining. It added an extra 30 minutes to my day. I started doing a single rinse (based on mash tun capacity) immediately after stirring. There was no difference between the two methods. Stirring really well is the key IMHO.

 

[b-boy]

My LHBS crushes the grains. How to I address it with them with out sounding like a jerk?

Ask them to double crush it and see if it makes a difference. That, or get a grain mill.

 

[YeastMode]

Just say that you are trying to dial in your efficiency and you were curious what their setting is. If it is too wide, then ask why they hae it set so wide. Have them put a feeler gauge in if they have one. Sometimes people mess with it and no one realizes.

Also, are they using a drill? Sometimes they run it too fast, so if so, ask to run it slower and/or twice.

 

[storytyme]

Thanks guys. I'll take the advice and see what happens. Happy Holidays.

 

[Wormburner]

then drain to get pre-boil volume.

When you add your sparge water, are you calculating how much you need to add so you are not leaving any (or at least not much) behind in your mash tun? ...or are you adding more sparge water than you need and only running off until you hit your target volume?

 

[titansvol]

I had very inconsistent efficiency numbers until I bought a mill. The one at my LHBS was always getting messed with.

 

[storytyme]

When you add your sparge water, are you calculating how much you need to add so you are not leaving any (or at least not much) behind in your mash tun? ...or are you adding more sparge water than you need and only running off until you hit your target volume?

The volumes are all pre-calculated in beer smith. By the time it is completely drained I hit my target pre boil volume every time.

 

[Yooper]

When you add your sparge water, are you calculating how much you need to add so you are not leaving any (or at least not much) behind in your mash tun? ...or are you adding more sparge water than you need and only running off until you hit your target volume?

You never want to leave any liquid behind in your mash tun when batch sparging!

If you're unsure of how much you need, simply measure the first runnings. If you need, say, 3.5 gallons, to hit your boil volume then that is how much to use in the batch sparging round.

 

[masonsjax]

I usually sparge with cold water just cause I'm lazy or forget to start heating it. Absolutely zero effect on efficiency. The key, as others have mentioned, is a good crush and stirring like you mean it. Good advice to measure first runnings when completely drained, then you know exactly how much sparge water to add. Once the grain is wet, what you put in is what you get out.

 

[Wormburner]

Good, Beersmith makes it easy to calculate volumes. If your volumes are correct, then I'm with these guys that it's likely to be the crush. I bought a mill soon after going to all-grain, and have noticed my crush to be much more consistent than friends' grain milled at the shop. Once I had the mill, I started buying base malt by the sack; the savings paid for the mill in short order.

 

[IrocChris]

Try increasing your grain bill by a couple % for each type of grain. Before I bought a mill, I ran into the same problem at my LHBS. It wasn't too much of a hassle to add an extra pound/oz here or there to make sure I hit my OG. Getting a mill worked wonders for my efficiency.

 

[butterpants]

My efficiency shot up 10% once instarted draining the mash slower.

 

[acidrain]

My efficiency shot up 10% once instarted draining the mash slower.

Then you need to mash longer, indicating a coarse crush.

 

[butterpants]

No, conversion was complete. What I need to do is drain it slower instead of full open ball valve. I've already troubleshooted and remedied my issue, thanks though.

Speed of sparge and its effect on efficiency is a known phenomenon and discussed on a regular basis in some of the more popular brew podcasts.

 

[DrunkleJon]

No, conversion was complete. What I need to do is drain it slower instead of full open ball valve. I've already troubleshooted and remedied my issue, thanks though.

Speed of sparge and its effect on efficiency is a known phenomenon and discussed on a regular basis in some of the more popular brew podcasts.

Correct me if I am wrong, but the only way I can see sparge speed affecting efficiency would be if you are fly sparging rather than batch. With a fast fly sparge you can get channelling which will bypass grain that still has sugars to give up. With batch sparging since you drain, add more water and stir you are mixing everything back up again and all of your batch of runnings are all the same gravity.

So, if batch sparging and you get higher efficiency from draining your runnings slower, it is most likely a conversion problem. With fly slowing down can definitely help.

 

[Yooper]

So, if batch sparging and you get higher efficiency from draining your runnings slower, it is most likely a conversion problem. With fly slowing down can definitely help.

I'm not sure it's a conversion issue- it's more likely a lautering issue.

Batch sparging works like a washing mashing- add the rinse water, stir/agitate to 'knock' the sugars into solution, and drain. Rapidly works as well as slowly. If a slower draining increases the SG of the runnings, then there is some sort of issue but I'm not sure what it is.

 

[RmikeVT]

My LHBS crushes the grains. How to I address it with them with out sounding like a jerk?

They keep a wide gap to A) Prevent people from getting stuck mashes, B) Sell more grain and C) Sell more grain.

You should invest in purchasing your own mill and getting it dialed in. At my LHBS I get 70% efficiency from their crush. I bought my own mill and dialed in the crush, condition my grain and get between 80%-85% efficiency. Although, I've found 80% to be the sweet spot for me, the porridge is just riiight. Also, buying base malt in bulk will save you lots of $$ and you will get ROI on the mill. ~$1.85-$2.00/lb for base malt vs. $0.85/lb for a sack of malt.

 

[masonsjax]

No, conversion was complete. What I need to do is drain it slower instead of full open ball valve. I've already troubleshooted and remedied my issue, thanks though.

Speed of sparge and its effect on efficiency is a known phenomenon and discussed on a regular basis in some of the more popular brew podcasts.

I've never seen scientific eveidence to support that claim and my personal anecdotal evidence supports the opposite. Iced tea tastes exactly the same whether you pour a glass quick or take a half hour to do it. I agree with the others, if you're seeing efficiency boosts by sparging slower (or with hotter sparge water), there's a problem somewhere and it's probably pH or crush related, or perhaps you don't stir vigorously enough before draining.

Also, I've noticed a lot of people judge conversion being complete by looking for a clear wort, or by using iodine. Neither tell you that full conversion is complete, only that alpha amylase has mostly done it's part. There could also be thermometer issues, or dough balls, etc that also cause issues that might be resolved by slower draining (aka longer mashing).

 

[butterpants]

Nor have I seen any scientific evidence... but then again there aren't exactly a plethora of folks doing brew research (compared to other topics of interest). Wish I could remember which Brew Strong episode they specifically talked about this.

Apparently, without someone running a few quality experiments, we're doomed to argue about it.

 

[DrunkleJon]

I am not trying to argue, I am interested in how it works. My efficiency is acceptable to me but I am wondering about the reasoning behind it. If it works for you, do not let me(us) dissuade you, though in my experience the only down side to a quick drain is a stuck sparge. If you do locate it let me know, I would like to hear about it.

 

[brdb]

I have also heard that draining your mash/sparge slower when batch sparging can boost your efficiency, not sure how it would do so and I have yet to try it, but it might explain his boost in efficiency.

 

[masonsjax]

There are a lot of reasons a slow drain could potentially improve (or appear to improve) efficiency, however they are workarounds for whatever the real problems are. Someone suggested the problem was a coarse crush (a good bet), and the response was that there is no problem, thanks anyway. Maybe it wasn't the intention, but that sounded pretty closed minded to me. If anyone is truly interested in addressing this symptom properly, there actually has been a good deal of documented experimenting done by many folks here, probably most notably Kai Troester.

 

[Bamsdealer]

60-65% is reasonable for a single sparge. If you want to be in the 75/80% range try a double or triple batch sparge with smaller amounts of water. To keep your brew time the same dont heat the sparge water and dont wait to drain. Just stir really well

 

[masonsjax]

Test results show splitting up sparge additions makes absolutely zero difference in efficiency, which makes sense. Stir vigorously, that's all you need to do, and that's easier with a thinner single sparge addition.

 

[histo320]

For what is worth, when I batch sparge I do it twice. Your exact method but I just divide up the water into two batches. Once I started doing this method my efficiency did improve.

 

[Bamsdealer]

I definately get better efficiency when going multiple batch sparges. I generally do two as the running from the third sparge dont have much sugar and you'll get diminishing returns on sparges beyond that

 

[Bobby_M]

Test results show splitting up sparge additions makes absolutely zero difference in efficiency, which makes sense. Stir vigorously, that's all you need to do, and that's easier with a thinner single sparge addition.

Who's test results? There is a mathematical reason splitting sparge additions increases efficiency. You could argue that the increase isn't worth the extra effort (and I'd agree with you because it's only 3-4%), but it doesn't mean zero difference. Kai's page has a full analysis and it makes sense if you work out the math of residual sugar in grain absorption.

Coarse grist absolutely takes longer to FULLY convert. When I say fully, I mean, the coarse particles may still be hydrating half way through your sacc rest and while the free flowing wort may be testing negative for starch, it doesn't mean you have full conversion yet. You can easily test this: Calculate the total gravity points of your grain bill and divide it by how many gallons of strike water you used. If you test the gravity of the mash and it's less than that number, you're not there yet.

You also have to think of sparging (either batch or fly) as a little more than just mere rinsing. Rinsing sounds like the sugars are just sticking to the outside of grain particulates. It is, but it's also inside the coarse hydrated granuals, partially uncracked hulls, etc. Aside from flushing and diluting free flowing wort, it's also diffusing into and out of the more sponge like masses. The coarser the grind, the longer conversion will take and the more sparge rate will affect efficiency. This is directly observable in fly sparging (and often recommended as rule of thumb), but it's also why many people will quote efficiency boost when letting batch sparge additions rest for 10 minutes or more). The latter situation would more be a fix for too coarse of a crush, but I'd prefer to work on a better crush.

There's also a lot talk about the temperature of the sparge not mattering because Kai tested cold sparging and found no difference. It's great data, but unfortunately many people draw misinformed conclusions. Kai's crush was such that full conversion was achieved and "normal" sparge technique yields decent efficiency. The conclusion will then be refuted by people who see boosts in efficiency when sparging hot. How can it be that a smart dude tested it and said it doesn't help and yet there is some empirical data? Well, if you were to do a mash efficiency test right before that hot sparge, you'd probably find that conversion was NOT 100% prior to the sparge. The hot sparge cranks hydration and amylase activity to 11 to finish things up quickly.

 

[MindenMan]

When I started in all grain, I mashed for 90 minutes and always hit my numbers on or very close to it. I started using the iodine test, and 60 minutes looked good. Well, my numbers were not as good at 60 as they were at 90 minutes. The only way to fix the problem was to sparge with additional water. So I am going back to a 90 minute mash, to save having to boil off 2 extra gallons of water.

 

[doug293cz]

Who's test results? There is a mathematical reason splitting sparge additions increases efficiency. You could argue that the increase isn't worth the extra effort (and I'd agree with you because it's only 3-4%), but it doesn't mean zero difference. Kai's page has a full analysis and it makes sense if you work out the math of residual sugar in grain absorption.

Coarse grist absolutely takes longer to FULLY convert. When I say fully, I mean, the coarse particles may still be hydrating half way through your sacc rest and while the free flowing wort may be testing negative for starch, it doesn't mean you have full conversion yet. You can easily test this: Calculate the total gravity points of your grain bill and divide it by how many gallons of strike water you used. If you test the gravity of the mash and it's less than that number, you're not there yet.

You also have to think of sparging (either batch or fly) as a little more than just mere rinsing. Rinsing sounds like the sugars are just sticking to the outside of grain particulates. It is, but it's also inside the coarse hydrated granuals, partially uncracked hulls, etc. Aside from flushing and diluting free flowing wort, it's also diffusing into and out of the more sponge like masses. The coarser the grind, the longer conversion will take and the more sparge rate will affect efficiency. This is directly observable in fly sparging (and often recommended as rule of thumb), but it's also why many people will quote efficiency boost when letting batch sparge additions rest for 10 minutes or more). The latter situation would more be a fix for too coarse of a crush, but I'd prefer to work on a better crush.

There's also a lot talk about the temperature of the sparge not mattering because Kai tested cold sparging and found no difference. It's great data, but unfortunately many people draw misinformed conclusions. Kai's crush was such that full conversion was achieved and "normal" sparge technique yields decent efficiency. The conclusion will then be refuted by people who see boosts in efficiency when sparging hot. How can it be that a smart dude tested it and said it doesn't help and yet there is some empirical data? Well, if you were to do a mash efficiency test right before that hot sparge, you'd probably find that conversion was NOT 100% prior to the sparge. The hot sparge cranks hydration and amylase activity to 11 to finish things up quickly.

+1. Pretty much exactly what I also wanted to say in response to this thread.

Brew on

 

[doug293cz]

When I started in all grain, I mashed for 90 minutes and always hit my numbers on or very close to it. I started using the iodine test, and 60 minutes looked good. Well, my numbers were not as good at 60 as they were at 90 minutes. The only way to fix the problem was to sparge with additional water. So I am going back to a 90 minute mash, to save having to boil off 2 extra gallons of water.

Bobby's post (directly above your's) explains correctly why you observe this.

Brew on

 

[masonsjax]

Very well said Bobby, thanks. I love Kai's work, but I think it was something Denny pointed me to a few years ago, maybe his own work I'm not sure, that showed single sparge resulted in the exact same wort as splitting it up. Sorry I don't have a link, so I'll concede to data at hand.

Dang, 90 min mash! I used to do that sometimes. With flour the mash can be done in mere minutes, so that must be a very course crush. I've been doing 20 min mashes (and cold water single sparge) for a long time now with miniscule (almost immeasurable) difference in efficiency. I started with the whole shebang, 60-90 min mash, first runnings plus mashout, then 2 hot sparge additions. Over a few hundred batches though I realize how much time and effort was wasted and nailing down my technique lets me get away with a shorter and simpler brewday.

 

[Bobby_M]

I'm glad you mentioned Denny because I know he chimed in quite a bit on the topic of one or two sparge additions. He's always said he didn't see a big enough difference to warrant the extra work. I never disagreed with that opinion, but always wanted to point out that it's good to know the mechanics of different sparge techniques anyway. Years ago, I collecting some very loose data on one vs. two sparges when I brewed similar batches (this was before Kai did the full workup "batch sparge analysis"). I noted about a 4% efficiency increase when double sparging and that ended up being what the math predicted as well. Given the more recent speculation that higher efficiency produced a potentially less desirable wort, chasing efficiency over 80-85% seems counterproductive anyway.

 

[storytyme]

Thank you everyone on the discussion about the sparging. I never thought my original post would stir up (no pun intended) so much great conversation. Happy Holidays to everyone.

 

[smokinop]

After reading through this thread I decided to concentrate on my batch sparging technique on an amber ale I brewed yesterday. Normally, I sparge twice but I do not pay too much attention to the flow rate, just want to get it done. I generally start out slow but within a few minutes am cracking the valve open. Yesterday, I had a buddy over who is interested in brewing so I was very deliberate with every process so I could easily explain what was going on. As it came time to sparge, I thought about this thread, so I opened the valve slowly to get an even flow of wort & left it alone. I had a steady flow for approx. 15 minutes, opening the valve all the way for another 15 minutes until no more wort was left. Hit all my numbers spot on, which rarely happens. I'm usually not too far off but I am still usually not where I want to be. I have enjoyed this thread, lots of great info...

 

[ericrichards420]

Storytyme, you say that you mash in at 152. Are you taking in the consideration of your grain temp. On My 10 gallon brews I heat my strike water to around 168. Within about 4 minutes the temp will drop to the desired 152 - 154 range.

 

[storytyme]

Storytyme, you say that you mash in at 152. Are you taking in the consideration of your grain temp. On My 10 gallon brews I heat my strike water to around 168. Within about 4 minutes the temp will drop to the desired 152 - 154 range.

I should of said that my mash is at 152 usually. I do what you do and usually add water at about 164 for my 5 gal batches, so I guess I mash in at 164. Thanks for the question.