Harvesting Bottle Dregs

[Brett3rThanU]

I've done a search and am still not 100% clear on the correct method for harvesting bottle dregs from a sour. I plan to use the dregs from a 750ml bottle of Jester King RU-55 which contains a Farmhouse Yeast, Wild Yeast from the Texas Hill Country, Brettanomyces Yeast, and Souring Bacteria. I only have one bottle, but might be able to get my hands on another. After reading, it sounds like I make a smaller starter 1-2 cups at about 1.025 and add the dregs. Do I aerate? Do I use a stir plate? How long do I let it sit before using it? After a week do add another cup of 1.025 wort? Aerate again and continue using the stir plate?

EDIT: I should note I plan to only use what I harvest here, no other sacc yeast at all in the beer.

 

[badlee]

You may want to avoid introducing any extra co2. Some people report mad off smells and flavours when putting sour dregs on a stirplate

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[dantheman13]

Lactobacillus doesn't like O2, and Brett isn't a whiney little ***** about needing O2 like Sacch is. So I never use O2 in sour beers/starters that have bacteria in them.

My biggest advice to those culturing up dregs from bottles is to use a variety. 2-3 bottles from different breweries, or a mixed culture from WY/WL is a good way to go. Dregs can be good and they can be bad. I like my method of pitching the stepped up dregs into 1 gallon of wort to see what happens, then if it turns out good after 6-9 months you can pitch that one gallon into 4 more gallons of wort/beer and be confident in what you are going to get out of it.

 

[kbindera]

There was a Brew Strong podcast several years ago on yeast washing where Jamil describes his process of growing up dregs from a single bottle. I've had good success with this method.
You basically pour your beer off but leave a small amount on top of the yeast cake, sanitize top, put foil on top and put back in the fridge for a week to fully settle the yeast. Then decant that remaining beer off.
Then make like a 1020 wort and put it directly in that same bottle, swirl up the yeast cake and let it ferment out. You can step up from there.
I've been doing this with Crooked Stave beers and it works very well. Even see cool little pellicles in the bottles after a few days. In these beers, I let the pellicle drop out, then decant again and step up yeast in another vessel. You can taste that decanted beer and you get a really good sense of what you are dealing with.


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[Calder]

Sours are usually brewed with sacc yeast doing the initial hard work, and creating alcohol to protect the wort/beer. Once the beer starts to sour, the sacc starts to die as the low ph is a hostile environment for it.

Your bottle dregs probably don't have any viable sacc cells.

I recommend making a starter (low or no hops) with some regular sacc, and add the dregs to that.

 

[dantheman13]

Sours are usually brewed with sacc yeast doing the initial hard work, and creating alcohol to protect the wort/beer. Once the beer starts to sour, the sacc starts to die as the low ph is a hostile environment for it.

Your bottle dregs probably don't have any viable sacc cells.

I recommend making a starter (low or no hops) with some regular sacc, and add the dregs to that.

Agreed. The approach I will take is after stepping up the dregs in the bottle (using the Jamil method mentioned above), I'll wait 3-4 days to see if a fermentation happens. If not, I will add some Sacch to get it going. I like to give the wort some time with the bacteria before the Sacch hits anyway.

 

[fivepoundpossum]

i agree with dantheman. i've had the best luck with biodiversity--more bugs, more complexity. that is, i collect the dregs of multiple sours/wilds/clean belgians (for the esters) in a quart jar. when it's full, i pitch the jar along with a pack of saison yeast into 5-6 gal of unfermented wort. with that method, the batches are usually ready (and delicious) in 3-4 months.

 

[tgmartin000]

I just bottle harvested from a couple jester king brews. Mostly noble king, but threw some mad meg in thre as well. Did a 3 step starter, 1 L 1.020, 1.5 L 1.030, 2 L1.040. Added o2 each step. Had a ton of yeast. Fermented a noble king clone down to about 1.002 in a week. It's been sitting in the carboy for about a month now. Maybe 2.

Not sure if this one will sour, since it's 35 IBU, like the real thing. I'm considering bottling it vey soon.

 

[MileHighBrewer]

TGM - would love to try that beer!

 

[Brett3rThanU]

So I made a 1 liter starter with a gravity of about 1.020 and added the bottle dregs. I did not aerate or it it on a stir plate, and also used an airlock instead foil like I usually do. All I see are a few bubbles on the surface, but nothing else, no activity etc (it's been about 18 hours). Should I see any activity? What's an indication the bottle dregs are actually doing anything and worth using?

 

[dantheman13]

That's a really hard question to answer. Different bugs/strains do different things. Not all of them will produce CO2, krausen, etc, and some may take longer to show signs of fermentation. Bubbles on the surface should be a good sign. Brett will usually take around 5-7 days to get going, so give this some time.

 

[JoppaFarms]

I harvested from two bottles a few weeks ago. One was a Jolly Pumpkin Noel de Calabaza and one was a Zoetzuur Flanders Red ale. Neither dregs did anything for a week after adding about one cup of 1.035 wort to the bottles and putting an airlock on. Then I woke up one morning and a weird half kraussen/half pelicle had formed in the JP bottle. I made up 2 gallons of my batch of low IBU wort and split it, pitching each bottle into their own 1 gallon jug. The JP one has really taken off, the Zoetzuur hasn't done a thing. I pitched a bit of US-05 in the Zoetzuur to try and get it going and it smelled SUUUUUUPER tart when I took the airlock off.

Long story short...it may not LOOK like anything is happening, but it might be happening. Some bugs don't really show much signs is what I am learning from this experiment.

 

[JoppaFarms]

Front center: pale ale with peaches and a lacto grain starter, back left is the JP dregs, back right is the Zoetzuur dregs that the US-05 I pitched this morning is starting to work on.

 

[Brett3rThanU]

So a pellicle has formed! I plan to add this at the start of fermentation with some saison yeast, but do I decant the pellicle off first or add the whole starter?

 

[jbaysurfer]

^That's an awesome pic!

 

[sweetcell]

Add the whole starter.

 

[Joe_CraftBeerTraders]

I am going to bring this thread back from the dead. I am looking to harvest dregs but do not have a beer planed to use it for. Basically I would like to have a jug that I can pour dregs into to keep around and use to pitch into beers im planing on souring. A home brewers house blend of commercial strains if you so wish. So my question is, can I create a starter at 1.020 in a gallon carboy and just continuously pour dregs into it? How can I keep them happy and how long can they stay in the gallon jug? Like i said id like to continuously add dregs to it and when brewing a sour (once ever couple months) pitch some of it

 

[kingwood-kid]

I am going to bring this thread back from the dead. I am looking to harvest dregs but do not have a beer planed to use it for. Basically I would like to have a jug that I can pour dregs into to keep around and use to pitch into beers im planing on souring. A home brewers house blend of commercial strains if you so wish. So my question is, can I create a starter at 1.020 in a gallon carboy and just continuously pour dregs into it? How can I keep them happy and how long can they stay in the gallon jug? Like i said id like to continuously add dregs to it and when brewing a sour (once ever couple months) pitch some of it

That would work fine. Obviously the culture would evolve over time as you added different dregs, but I'm guessing you are fine with that. Maybe even hoping for that. As far as keeping it happy, you'll just have to feed it periodically, probably when you are pitching some so you don't need an ever-larger container. If you're AG, the boiled third runnings of any batch are a free and easy food. Third runnings don't have many longer-chain carbohydrates, so you might add a pinch of flour or a few grains of 2-row to the boil.

They can stay in the carboy for a really long time. Your two biggest worries are a lack of food and the pH dropping so low that it inhibits the microbes. But both of those problems will be prevented by the pitch-and-feed plan.

 

[sweetcell]

a one gallon jug is too big, in my opinion - unless you drink A LOT of sours. you're only adding an ounce of dregs each time. also, you don't want to pitch your first dregs into too much wort. i would start with a small jar, like a pint and fill it a third way up with weak wort. when the jar is over half-full, add a little more wort when pitching new bugs. when you get close to the top of the jar, then step up to bigger jar.

by continually adding bugs to the same jar/jug/container over many weeks or months, you will be favoring the early additions over the late ones. the latecomers will be pitched into an environment where the veterans will greatly outnumber them (they've been multiplying for much longer), there will be alcohol and low pH so it will be tougher for them to get going, etc. you'll be adding you beat up dregs to a half-gallon of beer that has a lot of active, refreshed bugs in it. new guys are unlikely to do well.

what i've done recently is to collect dregs in a pint jar. got about 5-6 bottles worth of dregs in there. once pretty full, i started a new pint jar. that way the second round of bugs got some fresh wort to start off with insteaf of something that the first round of bugs had already munched through. eventually i started a third pint jar, and eventually mixed them all together in a growler.

edit: yes, there is a good chance i'm over-thinking this. but i like to be as fair as possible to all my bugs

 

[mbbransc]

Using the "1 pint mason jar at a time approach"...

Am I correct that you still fill it 1/2 way with 1.020ish wort before beginning to add dregs? 1oz at a time means ~4 bottle dregs per pint jar. Are you leaving these covered with foil at room temp, or some other method?

I have several sours I want to harvest the dregs from but I too don't have a sour brew planned currently. If I could save/harvest my dregs as I go, this could be an effective way of using super bugs when I am ready.

Sounds great, thx!

 

[sweetcell]

Am I correct that you still fill it 1/2 way with 1.020ish wort before beginning to add dregs?

yup

1oz at a time means ~4 bottle dregs per pint jar.

a pint is 16 ounces, so you should be able to get 8 bottles in there assuming you pour exactly 1 ounce. i got 5-6 bottles in there, left a little room so i could gently swirl.

Are you leaving these covered with foil at room temp, or some other method?

i use the jar's lid, and either vent several times a day or leave it on just loose enough to let pressure escape slowly.

 

[mbbransc]

a pint is 16 ounces, so you should be able to get 8 bottles in there assuming you pour exactly 1 ounce. i got 5-6 bottles in there, left a little room so i could gently swirl.

Brain fart, duh.

i use the jar's lid, and either vent several times a day or leave it on just loose enough to let pressure escape slowly.

Still at room temp? How long do you think it's good like this?

 

[sweetcell]

Still at room temp? How long do you think it's good like this?

yes, room temp for 4-6 week. if you're not going to use them after that time, i would store in the fridge (or continue to feed fresh wort).

 

[Inkleg]

Thanks for all the good information here. I stored the dregs from quite a few bottles in a pint jar as I didn't have the time to do anything with them at the time. Bad thing is I can't even remember what beers they were, other than what are available here in GA and on Oldsocks site as having viable dregs.
Well after 6 months I got around to pouring it into about 600mL of .020 wort. It took about 7 days before anything happened. After a few weeks I stepped it up and then again. It took off quicker each time. Haven't decided exactly what to do with it yet, but this is what it looks like right now.

 

[Joe_CraftBeerTraders]

Awesome thanks for the info guys. Yeah my plans were to have 2 or 3 different containers. Cantillon, jester king and a mix jar. My goal was to basically always have these bugs on hand so I can pitch to sours I make.

 

[CoolDaddy]

Thanks for all the good information here. I stored the dregs from quite a few bottles in a pint jar as I didn't have the time to do anything with them at the time. Bad thing is I can't even remember what beers they were, other than what are available here in GA and on Oldsocks site as having viable dregs.
Well after 6 months I got around to pouring it into about 600mL of .020 wort. It took about 7 days before anything happened. After a few weeks I stepped it up and then again. It took off quicker each time. Haven't decided exactly what to do with it yet, but this is what it looks like right now.

Inkeg, did you just add the dregs from multiple bottles into a jar with no wort at all and then eventually added the multitude of bugs from the jar into 1.020 starter wort? I had an idea to do this since I would only harvest dregs 1-2 times a month based on what I can get and then once I have a collection of bugs I would add them to some starter wort to grow. You added them after about 6 months which is probably around the time it would take me to save up a good collection and enough to pitch.

I would probably then wash and save for use with a sour later since I don't have any of my sour fermentors open, but also don't want to lose the good bugs that are hard to get for me.

 

[Inkleg]

Inkeg, did you just add the dregs from multiple bottles into a jar with no wort at all and then eventually added the multitude of bugs from the jar into 1.020 starter wort?.

Correct, the only liquid in the jar was the little bit from the beers themselves used to break the dregs loose.
Activity has subsided now, so I think I'll let it sit for a few weeks before cold crashing and stepping it up one more time. I plan on doing a 3 gallon batch with it and see what mystery beer I get.

 

[badlee]

Ohhhhhhhhh,I just love a mystery beer!

 

[sweetcell]

Inkeg, did you just add the dregs from multiple bottles into a jar with no wort at all and then eventually added the multitude of bugs from the jar into 1.020 starter wort? I had an idea to do this since I would only harvest dregs 1-2 times a month based on what I can get and then once I have a collection of bugs I would add them to some starter wort to grow. You added them after about 6 months which is probably around the time it would take me to save up a good collection and enough to pitch.

as i wrote on page 2, i would start feeding the bugs immediately - i.e. pitch the dregs into a small amount of starter wort, and add a little more wort every month or two as fresh food for the late-comers.

just pitching bugs into a jar without any food for months on end will hurt viability.

 

[CoolDaddy]

Correct, the only liquid in the jar was the little bit from the beers themselves used to break the dregs loose.
Activity has subsided now, so I think I'll let it sit for a few weeks before cold crashing and stepping it up one more time. I plan on doing a 3 gallon batch with it and see what mystery beer I get.

Thanks for clarifying, Inkleg.

as i wrote on page 2, i would start feeding the bugs immediately - i.e. pitch the dregs into a small amount of starter wort, and add a little more wort every month or two as fresh food for the late-comers.

just pitching bugs into a jar without any food for months on end will hurt viability.

Thanks sweetcell. I think the best would be for me to make a jar or 2 of 1.020 starter and then each time I add dregs I can pour in a small amount of starter to the dregs jar to feed the late-comers as you said.

 

[sweetcell]

I think the best would be for me to make a jar or 2 of 1.020 starter and then each time I add dregs I can pour in a small amount of starter to the dregs jar to feed the late-comers as you said.

what will you do with the unused starter wort? you want to be sure that airborne nasties don't take up residence. best would be to freeze it until needed (idea: clean and sanitize an ice-cube tray, make some wort cubes, and dump them into a new zip lock bag, take out as needed). personally i just make it up as needed: boil in the microwave in a small mason jar, let cool, pitch.

 

[bovineblitz]

There was a Brew Strong podcast several years ago on yeast washing where Jamil describes his process of growing up dregs from a single bottle. I've had good success with this method.
You basically pour your beer off but leave a small amount on top of the yeast cake, sanitize top, put foil on top and put back in the fridge for a week to fully settle the yeast. Then decant that remaining beer off.
Then make like a 1020 wort and put it directly in that same bottle, swirl up the yeast cake and let it ferment out. You can step up from there.
I've been doing this with Crooked Stave beers and it works very well. Even see cool little pellicles in the bottles after a few days. In these beers, I let the pellicle drop out, then decant again and step up yeast in another vessel. You can taste that decanted beer and you get a really good sense of what you are dealing with.


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Why would you be worried about that tiny amount of beer? Just put the wort in the bottle with the little teeny bit of beer and get your starter going right away.

 

[stvo]

Use a gallon jug, harvest in apple juice keep it at 100F or room temp if if you can't, and add juice as you pour off purge with 02 bugs hate oxy

 

[sweetcell]

purge with 02 bugs hate oxy

i think you meant CO2, not O2...

and some bugs like oxygen, or are indifferent. some lacto do fine with oxygen, and if you consider brett a bug then it's quite happy with O2.